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Horizon

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Posts posted by Horizon

  1. My point remains, the country is split on the gay rights issue. It not like those against are some small minority. The liberals are merely demonizibg those who don't agree with them and belittling the religious beliefs behind the conservative's reasoning. If that's no intolerance I don't know what is.

     

    Let's not sugar coat it.

     

    Kinda like those of us who support gay rights have been demonized on this very site? Told that my faith (Presbyterian Church USA) is a fringe one? Told that by allowing my son to go to youth group a with a gay minister made me an unfit parent?

     

    Then we can add in glossing over gay bashing, gay murder, and the long list of states that still have laws that allow someone to be fired for being gay? A man knifed 6 people in Israel at a gay pride parade, one teenage girl is dead. On Monday of this week, a guy assaulted a gay couple in New York. His mistake was that one of the couple is West Point grad and veteran of our various adventures in the Middle East. These types of attacks are still going on today.

     

    This conversation has become so intense, and both sides have met each other with nastiness. When one side pushes hard, the hard side will push back. That turns into a fight. Gays and those that support their rights have been on the losing side for a long time. Now that they are approaching a semblance of parity in civil rights, NOW all of a sudden those that don't want them around are whining, yes whining, about tolerance.

     

    I welcome local option, and as a Scouter I will respect the faith of others who will not allow gay adults into their unit. There is room around the campfire for us all. There are Troops who don't have any women in uniform - no problem with me. There are Crews and Ships that are male only as well - no problem. There are units that only allow people of their faith - no sweat. I have openly tolerated all of these, I just ask for the same consideration from the other side.

     

    Friendly. Courteous. Kind. Reverent. 1/3 of our Law has been ignored for too long in this debate.

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  2. The unit I serve is majority minority, reflecting my city (in Orange County) and state (California). Looking at the pictures from summer camp, we are at most 25% anglo. The rest is Persian, Korean, Chinese, and Japanese. This is reflected in the Troop Committee and adult leaders. I used to have a Jewish patrol from the local Temple, but they all aged out and were not replaced. I currently have 3 Chaplain Aides - a Protestant Christian, a Hindu and a Muslim. Those 3 do a great job of following the 12th Law.

     

    The conflict with academics and other activities is there for all of my Scouts, not just the stereotyped Asian ones. My Troop is known in a couple of expat communities, and I get boys whose parents want them to experience all things Americana during their time in the United States. The only problem I run into with some parents volunteering is that not all of them speak English. Nothing like having a parent meeting with a translator!

  3. How long would it take before folks were complaining about the BSA celebrating the genocidal occupiers.  If we were starting over today I'd guess there would be no such symbolism allowed from any prior culture.

     

    Nah - you can embrace a myth, and then also acknowledge that all heroes have issues. If people actually started researching the real history of the Native tribes, they might find themselves going down a similar rathole.

     

    I support the OA in all that it does, but I personally do not like the Native symbolism that we have adopted. Several of my friends in different Nations like that the OA honors them, but they wish that the boys would not wear their ceremonial garb or talk in a stilted accent as well. 

  4. I read this with a bit of amusement as my 16 yo spent the summer teaching and signing off on Basketry and Leatherwork at a local summer camp. Clearly not old enough to be a MBC. Easy enough for anyone to tell if the work for the merit badge was actually completed, sure.

     

    The problem our troop has with scouts completing partial merit badges is finding counselors to work with on MBs, especially non-Eagle required MBs. Larger troops in the area handle it by assigning MBs to parents to counsel. We are a smaller troop and don't have those resources, and I'm not a fan of keeping it all in-house either.

     Its interesting, in that I am on the Council MB list and have contacted exactly once (Backpacking MB). 

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  5. Bad Wolf - any idea if their CO is a church or not?

     

    Too bad about the leadership. I hope they find a unit tied to their faith where they can follow the local option and continue in Scouting.

     

    Personally, I expect my CO to hold the line, which I will respect. Once my son is 14, I will look into working with our church to charter a Crew for our small youth group under the options. Prior to this our church was not willing to sponsor due to the restrictions (our prior youth minister is gay). We won't have the massive numbers, but I think I can build a successful Crew over time.

  6. That really gets under my skin.

     

    I think anyone who is honest agrees, which is why it is baffling that Scouts UK and Canada are so enthusiastic about it.  It's too bad I hurt CambridgeSkip's feelings via reductio ad absurdum by pointing out that Scouts UK's enthusiasm for these events is disgusting, I'm sure he could have explained it.

    Nevertheless, American Scouters (who should be cashiered) have already been taking Scouts to pride parades against all good judgement (because they are of poor character) and against BSA regulations, and next year you will see Scouts at pride parades in droves. 

    Again, the fortunate side of local option is that the only Scouts who will be exposed to the nudity, public sex, public bondage, etc. that goes on at these parades will be the sons of the people who want all that in the first place.

     

    Your  reductio ad absurdum  was delivered in an insulting manner, and you know it. The equivolent would be me saying that I assume that all who are anti-inclusion would rather just tie all the gays to fence, torture and and kill them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard), or bludgeon and kill them (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/dad-killed-daughter-lesbian-lover-gay-mom-article-1.1722103)or some other means of showing your displeasure at their lifestyle.

     

    That is the problem with reductio ad absurdum  used in an online forum - it overlays with Poe's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law).

  7. You're both in earnest: No pro-inclusion person here can give any explanation as to why Scouts should be at gay pride parades. 

    And that's just about all I need to know about the pro-inclusion element.

     

    I am pro-inclusion, and I do not think that Scouts should be at the types of gay pride parades you are posting photos from. In fact, I mentioned this thread to the lesbian staying with us for the summer, as she headed out the door to the San Diego Pride. Her response? "NOBODY should be bringing children to a Pride parade. Anyone who does is an idiot." So you will find that there is at least one person in the LGBT community that agrees with me - kids don't belong at Pride parades.

     

    I also do not think that Scouts should be at Hooters, Tilted Kilt, or any other Breastaurant franchise either if that helps.

  8. Why thank you for your insightful personal attack.  Now if one has something to say on the subject, we would all like to hear it.

     

     

    [whoops - wrote this after the request to not comment on sanity - leaving it, but if the mods want to delete - go ahead]

     

    If you run a business - you are required to follow the applicable laws. That means black people get to sit at the counter, women are allowed without being escorted by men, etc. So if anyone is in a governmental identified protected class, you are not allowed to discriminate against them. If the various churches would stop allowing money changers in, then there would not be a problem. The only change has been the addition of gays and lesbians to the protected class, joining racial groups, religious groups, the disabled and certain classes of military veterans.

     

    If you have a home, you can do whatever you please, as long as you are within the building code and zoning laws . This has not changed either.

     

    If you have a church, you can admit whomever you please. You can also reject whomever you please. Ask the Catholics - women still cannot become Priests. If, however, your church decides to start taking government funds or running a business - you have to start following the applicable laws.

     

    The 1st Amendment is still alive and going strong. You are completely free to practice your faith. The Supremes have gone so far as to allow Native American churches to use peyote, and nobody has successfully sued the Catholics to allow women to become Priests.

     

    In the BSA - our Chartered Orgs can still choose the leaders. They have control.

    In the USA - the only way Sharia law will come to be is if we elect Representatives and Senators who pass laws, and a President who swaps out the Supreme Court that allows for Sharia Law. I personally don't see this happening anytime soon, and anyone who predicts that it is imminent because of gay marriage needs to remember that when you make a tin foil hat - the shiny side faces out.

     

    ;)

  9.  So we are going to compare an extra curricular activity to education, health, and faith? Let's replace scouting with say football or band. As a parent I expect my children to their best at what they try to do. "Their best" not what I think their best should be. If by that time in their life I cannot tell what their best is or isn't then I have not been much of a parent then.

     

    I guess I have always put Scouting at higher than other extra curriculars - closer to faith for me as Scouting WAS my church growing up.

     

    Buts lets think about that comparison some more: 

    I don't accept less than 100% on the field when I coach, why should expect anything less than 100% from Scouting. I KNOW that the boy is capable of more - so how much do I leave him alone?

  10. It is an interesting question. How much choice and freedom to give a son, a Scout, a child.

     

    So you back off, let them miss the Eagle. OK

    How about homework? Do you let them get the D, the F, the C? Even though you know the impact it will have if they try to go to college?

    Wherefore faith? Do you let them choose their faith, don't require church?

    Health - they will feel the impact of obesity. Do you just let them make the choice? If everyone is spending the same amount for dinner, and the fat one goes for the worst food - do you intervene?

     

    I am not trying to equate all of these - just brainstorming a list. I am thinking about all of the times when we DO push, or effectively make the decision for those in our charge due to our knowledge and perspective of the long-term impact of their decisions.

     

    How much freedom, and consequences, can you handle? SHOULD we handle?

     

    Do you let your son quit Scouts because it is uncool? What else will you let them quit? Will you sign the paper letting them drop out of high school?

     

    How important is Scouting?

    How important is education?

    How important is health?

     

    I agree - by the way, that pushing someone too much won't do you much good. Too much bribery is also bad. Somewhere in the middle is the encouragement, support, and gentle nudging. All of these are VERY dependent on the youth (or adult). 

  11. Generals are generals because they meet the requirements.....

     

    Robert E. Lee was #1 in his class at West Point.

     

    George A. Custer was dead last in his class at West Point.

     

    How did meeting the requirements work out for them?

    Grant was 21 out of 39. Ranking does not always mean what we think it means.

  12. We get more than we can take - due to great relationships with a few Packs. We get walk-ins that we sometimes have to push to other units. Our reason for existence is that boys seem to like our Troop, and inertia. Another Troop could compete, and there is one in the area that pulls from one of our Packs as well. We welcome boys looking at more than one location. We also get a lot of boys due to expats in our area (Chinese and Korean). There is a large community of these folks, and our troop is known as one where we welcome the boys, and the boys get a little more of that All American experience. 

     

    Older Scout recruiting is encouraged with our older Scouts who are in Middle School and High School. This usually comes in via our annual shooting campout, our ski trip, and our climbing runs. 

     

    Boys leave: Too busy with other activities (we keep the door open for them), helicopter parents who decide that life in the woods is too rough and too undisciplined for their son (makes me sad), or they switch Troops to one that has more friends.

  13. Surely there are/were BSA patches with a confederate flag on them.  Post those pictures!

     

    Have to find them in my son's Jambo stash from 2010. He came back with a set of patches using the battle flag as their main design element.

  14. A few years ago I recommended on this forum that the BSA adopt the online application similar to the AYSO. It does everything we need, tracks training as well, and is updated annually. I was jumped hard by the old guard here, who screamed at me that if I wasn't willing to spend the extra time filling out another adult application, I was not worthy of service.

     

    Glad to hear that people are coming around.

     

    1 online site. Have an annual update requirement. Allow for all positions to be verified. For those of us with roles in multiple units (a Pack, a Crew, a Troop, and Ship in my case), we can get the data in there, and the Unit Commissioner for each one can log in to confirm. Again, AYSO has this figured out - I was able to handle a 2,000 youth league with hundreds of of volunteers without a problem (I was the volunteer at the board level in charge of ensuring that all volunteers were registered, trained and eligible).

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  15. Younger? Not necessarily. I know guys (in Scouting) in their 40s and 50s that build stuff like this professionally...and pretty slick stuff. Most of your creative guys in the gaming industry for the big games are over 35.

     

    BSA did not do everything they could have with this effort. In fact, many of the official suggestions sent to them about how to create such a product went unaddressed in this effort. 

     

    That is fair - bad move on my part re: age. I had read a piece recently on the Republican party's incompetent tech strategy, and how there were some Young Turks who wanted to help and show how it could be done, but were regularly shoved to the side.

     

    Older article on the subject here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/the-gop-talent-gap/265333/

    Last year the challenge the Republicans have: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/technology/republicans-are-wooing-the-wired.html?ref=us&_r=0

     

    I still think that making a BSA site that is full of various resources based around merit badges would be great for us. I have recommended Personal Management to friends with daughters, as a good intro to personal financial management. I have used the Hiking and Backpacking books to teach neighbors how to take their first hikes. We have great Content - lets share it with the world as our Good Turn, and in exchange we will raise our profile and probably attract some new Scouts.

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  16. I think this is a great concept, but instead of making money on this we should be making this free content to bring boys into Scouting.

     

    If the Camping Merit Badge site went through the requirements, had the links to great external  resources (like meritbadge.com has), allowed some curated advertising from REI, Bass Pro Shops, etc. it would be great. Boys could use the site to learn, BSA could get revenue from the ads, and others might start seeing us as a resource for learning on certain topics. The more people go to the BSA for information, the more we get public exposure in a positive fashion. The more traffic we get, the more money we could make on a CPM or CPC basis too.

     

    That site could also have the .pdf downloads as well for those that want to read on the go, print their own, etc.

     

    This would require hiring some younger, tech savvy talent into the BSA to really drive things in a new way. Not sure the chances of that happening.

  17. I would never proclaim to know you or your background. Funny how you claim to know mine. 

     

    If you have lived in a town with only three hundred people or less then you would know there is no way to miss peoples' most intimate habits. You just can't hide that.

     

    But you know me and my town best. I bow to your superior command of my town. Geesh. :rolleyes:

     

    You asked if I lived in a small town, I answered. I don't know your specific town, I freely admit. I know my small town in Oklahoma, and I know the small town where I own land in Montana. Finally, I know the small community of a fraternity house. Those are anecdotal bits of information. What I find interesting is to then apply various scientific methods to the concept of what is happening, even in the smallest of towns where everyone supposedly knows each other.

     

    All I was stating is that statistically, there is probably one gay person in your town of 300. They might not be public with it, they might hide it, but there is a high probability that they exist.

     

    People are amazing at their ability to hide things. We are often surprised at the secrets that start coming out years later, oftentimes after death. DNA tests of who the real father is, revelations about prior lives, and other things that people have kept hidden for years. In my family, adoptions that turned out to be out-of-wedlock births by other branches of the family, for example. Found that one out 50 years after the fact. Being gay is one of those things that is kept hidden, and hidden very very well. There is a reason they call it "in the closet" after all.

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  18. Live your life in a town of 300 or less and then let's talk.

     

    Who was it that said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics?" ;)

     I have lived in a small town. I also lived in a 50 man fraternity house for 4 years. Funny how decades later we find things out. Who is it that said "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt"?

  19. I think the new basis of the American dream is social engineering and income re-distribution. The old American dream where one is left free to do what they want as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others has been dismantled by both parties over the last 20+ years.

     

    I am going to use the HUD vouchers to move in to a multi-million dollar neighborhood. That ought to change the make up the neighborhood. ;)

     

    Any economic analysis showing the share of income and wealth across quintiles shows that the current income redistribution is going from the stagnant middle class to the top 1%. That is then compounded by wealth accumulation that freezes out the lower classes as well.

     

    If one is concerned re-distribution, look to the tax code (and a flat tax such as that proposed by Hall and Rabushka).

     

    I will say again that this education program was a waste, but a lot of continuing education for teachers (and other professions) is a waste. The creation of continuing education programs for various professions creates an industry. Once you create an industry, people feel the need to justify the annual programs and they can't just offer the same stuff every year. So then someone has create NEW material that has "meaning." After awhile, you end up with some nonsensical garbage trotted out in the name of "lets make everyone come together."

     

    5% will embrace it.

    5% will hate it.

    90% will go through the motions to get their continuing education credits and go back to work.

     

    Like I mentioned - they ran this at the University of California and I have enjoyed the commentary from the faculty about it. Most ignored it, a couple seemed to think it is a great idea, and a few considered the program a complete waste of time and money.

     

    Then again - if we want to talk about a waste of money, at least this one did not take the students out of the classroom, and instead only abused the teachers.

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