Hiromi
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Bob WHite wrote --"Pappy, In your opinion what would do more to enhance the BSAs Brand recognition and quality? A video from national showing the BSA program, or having more local units that followed the BSA program?" And Pappy responds- "Well both of course, Bob. But I am not convinced that simply following the BSA program is any guarantee of quality or generating buzz, brand naming, or FOS.( We have been down that road before). What I was saying- National- or a group of scouters, would do well by scouting by producing a series of high quality videos that show scouting in action. Thats all. And then these videos could be disseminated to the district level for viewing either via DVD or podcast. I discussed this on the other thread about two suggestions about improving scouting- I think it was my 56th or 57th suggestion that we think about a scout web cast or tv network run by scouts and scouters. But yes- am ministry of propaganda I think is definitely a good thing. Pappy
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Hey fellas, I remember one time at a Pack meeting I stood up and asked the scouts why they thought being a scout is a good thing. The Cub master's son answered it. He said that it will be good for his career when trying to get a job. That was actually the most articulate answer I got from the group. IT got me thinking about our values as a society. I have met parents who call teachers and in threatening terms pressure them into raising their childs grade. I have met many parents who do their childrens assignments for them. I meet parents who coach to insure that their kid will play and in the plum position. I guess Gold Winger is right- it is a sign of the times. But I see a pretty uncharitable trend in both parenting and in schooling where its me or you. Schools, scouting, sports, the competition has gotten to be not necessarily about merit, but about credentials, not about quality,, but about brand name recognition.. This is why a lot of people are confused by scouting.. They look at it as an experience that their child can get from an amalgam of other activities like 4-H, family camping, and school. I think by making a really terrific recruiting and training video might go along ways to aiding scouters and scouts and generating FOS. It might also show scouts in action learning the great stuff in the great way that is uniquely scouting. Pappy
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Bob, I'm Sorry I misrepresented your postion. I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing it out. Piling on is so much fun, soemtimes I get carried away. Back to the Games thread - Yes - it wasn't the scouts's fault that he was poorly formed. You're right of course. My point was that you do see alot of schooling model as opposed to what I think BP intended in scout meetings and the approach to advancement and badges- getting boys out in the woods practicing these skills in the context of scouting- and not abstracted- I see dishonesty and dad's and mom's doing the work for their kids alot. Maybe I live in a particularly bad scouting neighborhood. Pappy
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Bob, I got from It's Me's post that learning from doing- i.e. practicing scout craft by doing an activity frequently is a more robust and effective way to learn something than to learn it in a Merit badge class (for instance). You can go over lashings in a gym during night time BS meeting, or you can build fortifications with a time limit and restrictions on what kind of lashings you may use in the forest as the enemy approaches.. One is abstracted into a schooling model, the other is fun and games-man-ship and the skill is also emphasized. Lots of canoeing trips with the skills learned over time beats in every respect a one time canoe class at a Coucuil summer camp. This is the problem with badges and rank advancement mills- it gives the scout and the scouter the illusion that the rank and the badge symbolize mastery. ANd in the end- it lowers the commoditie's value. I have met Eagle scouts who didnt know what orienteering was, let alone how to do it. And I'm sure youall have seen similar examples of badge encrusted incompetents. SO that says a little bit about book learning and badge classes as opposed to spending a summer in the woods scouting getting lost and finding your way back. It isnt an either or- Just more Its ME than Bob White. Pappy
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Gold Winger (Angel's Wings?) Where in the world are you going with this one? (Unless you are reiterating one of the greatest apologetics arguments for why the Catholic Church takes a dim view of Sola Scriptura and beleives that Sacred Tradition and A teaching magisterium of the church are needed as well for the proper formation of the faithful). Welcome to the fold Gold Winger- you old garlic eater! God Bless Us, Every On Pappy(This message has been edited by Pappy)
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Boffo response "Its Me"! But I have one question for you Mr. Smarty pants- How do you make your print hot magenta colored?! Pappy
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From THe Archives: Epistles of Captain Pappy Spiney Norman RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Thursday, 1/24/2008: 10:08:33 PM Well PAPPY I have to hand it to you. This board has certainly lit up since your arrival. I do have one question for you though. Can you tell me exactly where it states that the BSA is a Christian organization as you stated above. "You should go with him to the first few meetings and see for yourself citizens in action trying to turn green young bucks into creatures worthy of the mantle of U.S citizen, of Christian soldier, of Mensch, of a Real Man." I don't doubt your enthusiasm, only your methods. I would agree with other posters on the board and not call what you do scouting. In my past role as a Cubmaster and WDL we had Christians, Buddhists and Muslim all in the same Pack. We all thought it was a great opportunity to celebrate and learn about other ways to worship the same maker. I think your myopic view of what scouting should be looks to the past not for inspiration but as something that should be emulated today. This is not the 20th century. If this country is to survive and thrive we must find a way to once again change our society to reflect the makeup of it's populace. Forcing everyone into an outdated imitation of the Eisenhower years just ain't gonna do it. You are doing a disservice to the boys in your charge and not preparing them properly for the challenges that they will face in their lifetimes. admin | IP: Logged spin-off new thread RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Thursday, 1/24/2008: 11:18:14 PM Mr. Spidey Norman - You are certainly entitled to that opinion . The public schools have legions of certified teachers trained in the terms and ideologies your post espouse. (I am one of them- I know.) And on many levels, I would agree with you that tolerance, understanding, love of neighbor, are all admirable qualities that will of course be what the twenty-first century- like the twentieth century needs. But please explain to me how is a boy becoming a Mensch, A Christian Soldier, or worthy of the mantle of U.S. citizenship, in any way shape or form myopic or a deviation from those qualities needed for this century? I know you didn't mean to imply that you are an un-American Christian-hating anti-Semite? I think it would be quite easy to argue the point that the Scout Law is an extrapolation and derivation of the Golden Rule and the Sermon on the Mount. I think the Jewish term Mencsh is in no way any diminishment from the type of Man we need for the 21'st century and that the Mensch epitomizes most if not all of the scout ideal. Mensch:: a person, esp. a man, regarded as being honorable, decent, and responsible and having strength of character Etymology: Yiddish < Ger, person < OHG mannisco, orig., human < mann, man + isc-, -ish The Boy Scouts is a progressive movement born out of the very sentiments I articulated in my letter. BP and the rest of them were concerned that an existential crisis of civilization was at hand if something wasn't done about the growing number of neglected boys. It was a progressive movement to be sure- but it was based on the conservative values of the Scout Law. In a great and interesting sense Scouting embraces the two best parts of Conservatism and Liberalism (progressivism). It is a community effort of charity, organization, and collective values, coming to preserve and nurture a vital resource for the continuance of Civilization (Not an Eisenhower era version of Civilization- but a Civilization based on brotherly love and understanding as articulated in the Scout Law.) We CONSERVE the Scout law by perpetuating most LIBERALLY the scouting movement in all shapes and forms. But surely- civilization is not maintained without discipline- self-control - self- sacrifice- and all the qualities in the scout law. Selflessness is the ghost in the machine of Scouting and most world religions. But the liberal giving of onself to the service of another comes from the authority of a law whose author ultimately is a priori to BP or America. This is why God is in the scouts. Authority must be derived from its ultimate Head Waters - the Divine Author. This is implicit in our founding document of independence from British tyranny, and it informs American Citizenship. This is not some Eisenhower era phantasm! Don't twist my words to satisfy your desire to paint me as some sort of fascist. I went to College and went on to get certified to teach. I suffered six years of professors lecturing to us on how America, Evangelical Christians, The Catholic Church, Pro-lifers, Republicans, the Armed Forces, THe Boy Scouts, and Western Civilization in general were basically narrow destructive agencies that needed to be overcome by some twisted version of "Progressive Liberalism". The Scout Law itself has become a provocative thing in our time. Our timeless values are indeed timeless because they betray time and place. They are universal and they are difficult. They come from on high. This is why the world has made it a pejorative to call some one a "Boy Scout". It is like calling some one a do gooder.. Just watch the movies - it comes up a lot. Do you think I was wrong to suggest that youth, left to their own devises, will seek out depravity? Look around. I think we need to have the kind of parents that insist that their boys join and stick with scouting and not make it as democratic as some would suggest it should be. Democracy is for adults. Children do not know what is best for them. Have you seen the results of the other progressive movements in our culture? Permissiveness. Vulgarity. Lewdness. Disrespect. Dishonor. Unfriendliness. The world of youth culture, friend, is the antonym of the Scout Law. The Scouting founders new the provocative and revolutionary nature of the scout law. It is our founding principle for a reason. It keeps us vigilant, and reminds us of what the mark should be and ultimately how successful we are in our efforts. If feel-good progressive politically correct methods and ideologies have the result of creating spoiled children, self-loathing rudderless parents, and a popular culture where the very idea of SIN is perceived as a rude and judgmental anachronism, - then call me a myopic anachronism pal. But I think I'm not the one that needs the corrective lens. I'll leave the judgment call of what a disservice I am doing to my charges to their parents. Pappy From Lisabob RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Friday, 1/25/2008: 9:47:30 AM quality It is easy to find rhetoric, tougher to find answers in your posts there Pappy. So if I may, let me ask you a couple of really basic questions. 1) Do you view the Boy Scouts of America as a Christian organization? If so, what is your view on people of non-Christian backgrounds belonging to the BSA? 2) Do you attend Round Tables and other district and council functions where scout leaders from a variety of units gather together to share insights, ideas, and tips? 3) Were you a cub or boy scout as a child? If so, what was your pack or troop like, in comparison to what you have going with your "Costa Corps?" Lisa Bob From Pappy RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Friday, 1/25/2008: 10:35:56 AM Well I found my letters and reply pretty self-explanatory, I will gladly answer your questions. 1Lisa asks:) Do you view the Boy Scouts of America as a Christian organization? If so, what is your view on people of non-Christian backgrounds belonging to the BSA? Pappy responds: I do not think that BSA is a Christian organization. There is no Creed. There is no statement of belief in a Trinitarian God-head or any mention of Jesus Christ being the Son of God and our road to salvation. So no- it is not Christian. No where is there any tenant in scouting of specific rite- whether Baptism, religious formation, etc. Its the Scout law, as I stated, that seems to me be an extrapolation or at least co commensurate with the Golden Rule and the Sermon on the Mount. I also said the Jewish concept of the virtuous man- the Mensch- is very much in keeping with the Scout Law and Oath. Belief in a Maker is paramount because of what I described as the issue with ultimate authority. Would you, Lisa, say that Thomas Jefferson believed that he was forging a founding Christian Document? No I don't think you would (To answer the question for you- you can correct me if I'm wrong). The Declarations genius is in it pointing to the authority in which our rights are derived. Ultimate authority comes from the creator. Without a creator- human begin to believe that they are the creator- and that authority is derived from the person with the biggest gang of thugs. This is why the founders of the Communist and National Socialist regimes were against the idea of God. Lisa Asks Pappy 2) Do you attend Round Tables and other district and council functions where scout leaders from a variety of units gather together to share insights, ideas, and tips? Pappy Relies to Lisa: I participate in inner District events. Just got back from freezing my compass off at our Klondike. The Commish is a friend of mine who is actually taping my drywall as I write this. So I am certainly in league with the devil. (Just kidding) I have a very close relationship with another troop in town. They know what we do is different- but we have fun doing events together. They even built a potato cannon too. They are a strictly by the numbers outfit- very well run - and I learn a lot from them. There is another unit in a neighboring town that really has their act together- and I admire them greatly. I am not an island. 3) Were you a cub or boy scout as a child? If so, what was your pack or troop like, in comparison to what you have going with your unit? "Den Five- DEn Five- WHere ALive- THat Ain't No Jive DENNNNNN FIVE!" Never forget that- the Jive part was my idea. I was Cub scout. My Den mother lived down the block. We did lots of Craft Projects. At one particular Pack meeting the Assistant Scout master slapped me so hard in the back of the head that I cried. Why did he do this? Because I was whispering to a fellow scout the Nat King Cole song Mona Lisa when a presenter was showing us a painting of the Mona Lisa. Funny how those negative memories crystallize in your brain. I went to one Webelos meeting- it was terrifically unfriendly- and all they seemed to do was play baseball. SO that was it for me. I didn't even know about Boy Scouts until one day I saw something I would never forget. I got a call from my neighbors, the Pisanos (THat is really their names), and they said to hurry over- the Boy Scouts were here cleaning out their Creek. I rode my bike over and couldn't believe my eyes. Uniformed scouts in big boots had built a temporary damn and were cleaning out all the junk out of our favorite play spot. We were fascinated to see the huge catfish that was flopping in the muck. The pieces of tombstone fragments from Peter Truces Monument Company on the other side of the Creek (This was in Hillside Illinois) where really cool. I thought- wow- Boy Scouts are cool. But that is it for my experience. When I came back to it as my son's Tiger leader I was completely taken aback by both the official BSA video training and the program and manual. I found myself getting angry and nauseous just opening the pages. It seemed so saccharine and mediocre. The Pack meetings were literally a dangerous fiasco of the Pack Master's children running amuck. We parents looked on in amazement as the boys talked out of turn, showed disrespect for the adults and each other, and participated in these ridiculous phony Indian type rituals and bizarre scout games that left parents stunned. Ill never forget the scout play about how each boy would walk up on stage and say "oh look a bug"- and then pull a wing or a leg off the imaginary bug" and then walk off stage - , until the last scout came up and said- Yum, a raison! And ate it. Yikes... After the first meeting four families decided not to sign their children up for scouting. I didn't have any answers then - I only knew that what was trying to pass for scouting was an abomination. The rest I already wrote about in other posts. IT has been nearly six years since then, and I have come around to see a lot more of the wisdom in the BSA methods. But cub scouting I still find intolerably boring. We have no Den mothers. The moms are a big help- but all agree that the men should run the boys. I hope this helps you in your prognosis of me. Pappy From evmori RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Friday, 1/25/2008: 10:37:00 AM Sounds like a manifesto to me! FROM RangerT RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Friday, 1/25/2008: 12:34:53 PM Pappy All I read in your posts is constant criticism of the country, scouts, and in general anyone who disagrees with your own myopic view of the world. While there have always been problems in our society it is not a lost cause as you seem to restate in your posts. This is on e of the few countries in the world where a very diverse group of people from a variety of races, creeds and ethnic origins worked together to build this great country. Yes there have been and will continue to be problems but I would not want to live anywhere else. What you preach however are false doctrines and you know what the Bible says happens to false prophets. So Pappy all I have to say to you is get over it already, for every kid that has gone down to the lure of crime, greed, etc. I can show you 10 who have really made something of themselves. So you see your argument has no foundation to stand on and like sand will just blow away when a big wind hits it. I really feel sorry for you and the bitterness you constantly express. RangerT FROM PAPPY RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Friday, 1/25/2008: 1:00:22 PM Ranger T, What were the false doctrines I presented. You know, I have been called a lot of things on this sight- And the most vehement things always have a religious ring to them. Now I am called by you the thing that Jesus Himself said was the ultimate anathema - A false Profit! I don't know whether I should feel insulted or complimented to provoke such venom. I am not a negative person. Maybe I take myself way too seriously- and suffer from dramatic license in my writing style - but I am completely sincere in the thoughts I express here and the actions I take with my boys. I DO think our civilization is NOT guaranteed. Weimar Germany in the 1930s was considered by every standard of the time to be the most cultured civilized place on the planet. Nine years later it was the closest thing to hell we have ever seen. People cried- "How can this happen- how can civilized people resort to such barbarism." I think I know why. The foundation principles of the society was usurped and replaced with a Racist will to power. The normal watchdogs of civilization had become decadent and deserted their posts. The intelligentsia of Europe became enamored with Communism and anarchism and was completely loath to Christianity and Judaism and even of a Christian America they thought was backwards and Mongrel. What started as a intellectual fashion statement became a popular movement and then a machine of death. It can happen again. That is no false prophecy- it is a simple fact. You are right to say that our diversity is a great part of our strength. I place great hope in the human race and a diverse America and in a diverse Boy Scouts. And I see the good and the bad in both our boys, our culture, and our race. But what have I said that you find to be a lie? What are the false doctrines? Where are the inaccuracies? And if you are so sick of reading my comments, I suggest refraining from reading any more of them. It is amazing how often I am accused of my Myopia and intolerance on this sight. I am for the Scout Law. It is a standard of conduct. We serve the Scout Law first and foremost as Boy Scout volunteers. I am for the Boy Scout movement - and I have never argued on this site that BSA should follow my lead - I only asked if others had frustrations and ideas to make BSA better and shared some of the things I thought and have tried. You guys have not gotten me angry yet. I am having a ball, and I really have enjoyed reading the many threads from this site. Have a little faith that even I can learn. Pappy FROM PAPPY RE: The Epistles of Captain Pappy: Letters to news papers in defense of scouting Posted: Saturday, 1/26/2008: 11:24:41 PM TO Captainron 14, To refer to me as a "Brown Shirt", as you did in the Scouter Announcement thread is the epitome of offensive and maligning name calling. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=179161&p=2a I admit, in the heat of the moment- I foolishly have allowed myself to quip on these forums that Eamann is a "dope" for indicting my honor - and I was quick to apologize for it- and I do again here. I am truly sorry Eamann- you are obviously not a dope- or like Frank Burns on MASH, and I have gone back after making those slights and read many of your writings and I am especially the more sorry after realizing that you obviously care very deeply for scouting and know a great deal more about it than I do. It was un-scout-like of me to write such things, and I regret making them. I apologized to FireCat for an insensitive remark I made about how maybe we should have a physical fitness requirement for Scout leaders. I was and am sorry. Obviously there are many truly great resources that we shouldn't overlook for a physical handicap. My real intent was to impart that we adult leaders are looked to by our charges as examples of the scout law and scout way. And if we are to tell them to exercise and be physically strong- we should make the same effort ourselves. But when in the past week, Captainron 14, have I ever made a remark or presented an anecdote or proposed any idea that would give someone the impression that I am a NAZI? A Brown shirt is worse than a NAZI- The worst kind- they were the cynical thuggish brutes who used any means to get Hitler to power. The worst form of savage imaginable I believe. I surely will forgive you for your hyperbolous remark - as I'm sure you wouldn't have made it if you really knew me. But even if you really felt after sober reflection that I was such a hideous thing as the epithet that you chose, why print it on a public nationwide scouting forum, especially when you know that I intentionally revealed my identity to demonstrate that I was not a plant after dozens of those accusations? There is a real world out there and we are all mostly just ordinary citizens who share one thing in common; we work with boys in the effort to impart to them the scout law. Calling those who have different ideas than you do about Boy Scouting names like "Whack Jobs", "plants", and other disparaging names doesn't help a forum like this. I in fact go out of my way to teach my scouts those Christian virtues that many of my Christian friends find difficult- like turning the other cheek, and seeking to find your cross in humble submission to God's providence. Ideas completely loathed by the sadistic minions of Nazism. You see Captainron 14- I believe that a Christian soldier is a ready and willing martyr for peace. In fact, ask any one of my scouts why we engage in any of our pretend martial combats- from the potato cannons to the pugil sticks to firing salvos of archery arrows at Styrofoam orks and they will tell you the same thing they learned from me- it is "to be prepared for "spiritual battle"". They will tell you that they learn in scouting that the darkest forces we must face are those that rise up inside of us. The devil will tempt us to abuse those who harm us, He will tempt us into revenge and all manners of real violence- whether with the tongue, the thought, or the fist. My scouts learn that this is not manly behavior, but wickedness. I tell them if they want to meet the devil go ahead and kick a first grader. (I loath the fact that my boys will eventually have to face the Junior High gauntlet of boys calling them foul names because of the Boy Scout uniform. But I shouldn't really. What a great opportunity for a kid to make a stand for something bigger than himself. I see the Boy Scouting movement as a force for good in youth culture- not just another neat club like lots of neat clubs.) At the end of each of our meetings the senior scout in charge orders the scouts to fall in and dress right dress and come to attention. We salute the flag- play taps on the scout bugle, and say the scout oath and the pledge of allegiance. Then we get on one knee and a scout is chosen from a sea of hands being raised to pick out the prayers of the day. The scouts favorite prayers are the Glory be- the Lord's Prayer - the table blessing in Latin- and the number one favorite is the Prayer to Saint Michael. (Since we are a Roman Catholic unit- but have Lutherans, Baptists, and Apostolic Christians - I took the Hail Mary and Hail Holy Queen off the list to keep things ecumenical). This is my scout's favorite prayer- "Saint Michael the Archangel, Defend us in battle, be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. And do thou- oh prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into Hell Satan, and all the evil spirits who wonder through the world seeking the ruin of souls. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen" How can a Scout-His Scoutmaster, or their Troop- ever be called Hitler Youth or Brown shirts when they conscientiously attempt to incorporate Christian virtues and martial discipline with scout law and uniform conduct? You do realize that the Leftist radical's favorite epitaph for all Boy Scouts- not just the zealous uniform wearing gung ho variety like myself, is "Hitler Youth, Nazi, and Brown Shirts." You bring that kind of vitriol into a Scouter forum and then lecture me and the others about "ant--scouting elements" and about my Dereliction to my duty to uphold BSA standards? I hope you can at least see that your ends do not justify your means. Pappy
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How much should Faith inform Scouting?
Hiromi replied to Beavah's topic in Open Discussion - Program
You'll get no argument out of me. My son, when he is of age- can choose what direction he will take. I know the length of my power over him. And I know that you can only come into Christ of your own free will. But I am duty bound, as are his God-parents, to insure that he has been brought into the fullness of the faith. I think we all have the tendencey to take from people's words what meanings we choose to consider, and filter out or simply ignore the rest. "There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church which is, of course, quite a different thing." Foreword to Radio Replies Vol. 1, page ix Fulton Sheen P.S. FWIW This thread probably would have been better categorized as an Issues and Politics subject. Pappy -
In the Guise of a Game: Developing games to promote scouting skills, whether it be canoeing, pioneering, orienteering and geo-caching - what have you - is the creative end of our job. Games make things that in the abstract may not seem so apparently fun. I know that you guys hold serious reservations about anything that smacks of paramilitary or PC-incorrect. But lets not forget what boys already love. They love adventure -They love conflicts- They love a little danger- They love adult tools- They love martial combat They love codes and tests of wits and grist. They love to pretend. They love mischief They love independence from adults So the wrapping we put a project in, whether it be laying siege, or search and evasion, or hunting for downed spy satellites with hi and low tech devices- what's the difference if a scout learns core scouting skills pretending to be a CIA operative, a Jedi Warrior, A Navy Seal, a frontiersman protecting settlers from the Frenchies and their Iroquois scouts, a civil war detachment, a ninja force, or an elite force of the boys own design. Heck I have had boys design their own country- with flag, geographic features, and code system. It seems that the patrol system lends itself to this type of gamesmanship we already have established teams with leadership and established roles. Keeping it fun- keeping it about the boy's mind set- keeping it about using economy of time and resources- are all very good arguments in favor of designing an event to maximize the boy's imagination and excitement. Gingerly checking off items on a merit badge or rank advancement spread sheet- Good Lord!! What have we become? The boys I know and the boy I was would much rather be asked to save the world then do work-book excercises. The little joke amongst me and some of my parents is "Badges- We don't need no stinking badges!" HooYaa and Semper Paratus! Pappy
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COMPLAINTS: Vanishing and Moving Messages
Hiromi replied to Beavah's topic in Forum Support & Announcements
I won't go down that rabbit hole with you Gold Winger. The forum menbers could read scripture for themselves. Pappy -
How much should Faith inform Scouting?
Hiromi replied to Beavah's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Pappy "Probably the best way for a scout leader to promote a Scout's "Duty to God" and being "Reverent", is by personal example and how they live the values of their own faith each day."----Bob WHite I find myself partially agreeing with Bob White here. But this is an open-ended idea- isnt it. While I didnt agree with your other sentiments pertaining to discovering belief as opposed to being taught belief. (Catechesis is central for most faiths because if you dont learn the Sacred texts and the traditions of your faith and discuss them with others and with teachers then your formation is extremely in doubt and your spiritual life is just a crap shoot). If you meant by belief actually having faith in God- then of course- this is an act of free will no mater how much one is trained. I could anticipate a number of reasons why BP may have had run-ins with the Catholic Church. Camping on Sunday is an issue that we had to address early on in the formation of our troop becasue of our Sunday Obligatio to attend Mass. Our Solution: Go to Mass as a troop in uniform on all weekend over-nighters. Being a personal example of how one lives the values of his or her own faith each day as being the best way for a scout leader to promote a scout's duty to God and being reverent can indeed be done without raising walls as another Forum Member hinted at. I think there is a big difference between proselytizing and just being an open and unapologetic man of your faith in the presence of all. What I was getting at was that our scouting movement is very serious business, as Im sure all of you would agree to in various degrees. I think it is serious because many of our Faith Traditions indicate that formation of others is a terrific responsibility. Gods Grandeur can indeed be found in the forest. And we are not mandated by BSA nor should we be to speak in theological terms that would close out others. But lets not let our fear of putting off others ever detract from emulating the behavior our faith encourages. This includes looking to our faith to find the deeper and perhaps best reasons for why the Scout Law and Oath are important and how fromthem flows the authority and wisdom to enlighten us on how we should proceed in answering ethical and moral situations that may arise during our Scouter tenure. And lastly- if we want to communicate to others scoutings intrinsic values- bringing up the idea that scouting helps to get a boy to think outside of himself and about others and about his place and duties in this world is a very big selling point- I dont care if you are Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jew, or a squirrel-burning pagan like Gold Winger. Pappy -
COMPLAINTS: Vanishing and Moving Messages
Hiromi replied to Beavah's topic in Forum Support & Announcements
Fire Cat- Perhaps you complaint about this word and how your perception of an XY X X double standard about licentiousness could be spun into its own thread. I think that the Christian, Orthodox Jewish and Muslim view is that this is aberrant behavior. (The sexual deviance- not the going off message on threads). Libertinism and casual out of wedlock sexual dalliance is equally offensive to those that believe that it is both socially and morally and spiritually damaging behavior. It does indeed rise to being timely- worth while, and relevant to this forum if we Scouters really do take our jobs seriously. The formation of boys must be global according to the scout law and not specialized to the SMs personal comfort zone of say lashings and orienteering. While sex may not come up in conversation in meetings and the manuals that often, the implication can be expressed that reverence to a maker, along with most of the other scout law implies that we should not start something we dont intend on following through with. Fact Dating IS courtship. Fact- Courtship is a path towards Marriage. Fact Marriage is something recognized in Heaven. Fact- Marriage is a promise, an oath, a covenant, and a Mans duty bound to uphold it before God. Besides the fact that the Marriage vow is the most broken oath in the world with so many marriages ending in divorce- it is still something that should be viewed as a catastrophe by both scouting sensibility and by religious and societal standards. Talk about awkward. I have had children whose parents were onto to their second or third marriage when they were conceived in my CCD (Religion Class)They actually werent conceived IN my class room. Now THAT would be awkward. Catholics do not recognize divorce as being legitimate before the eyes of God as Jesus proclaimed in Matthew. It is no doubt a tough subject, and no one wants to be seen as judgmental and hypocritical. But especially for children, out of wedlock sex is wrong and dangerous physically, mentally, and spiritually. But you will never be a hypocrite if you talk in the terms that we are all weak, we all fall down, we are all tempted to do what is wrong, and we are all given another chance to make things right before God and to one another. SO Kudos to you and your sensitivity Fire Cat!! Men can be ignorant S***S as well. Did I put the fire out- or pour more bacon grease on it? Pappy -
How much should Faith inform Scouting?
Hiromi replied to Beavah's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Trevorum wrote: "OK, Beav, I'll be patient. I'm genuinely baffled as to what you mean by "inform Scouting". That has the sound of meaning, but is elusively slippery. Can you rephrase that question?"" Defintion Number 3 is the "Inform" I meant. But in a srtange way all the differnt senses of the word inform are intersting. How does Religion inform Scouitng? To Inform: 1. to give or impart knowledge of a fact or circumstance to: He informed them of his arrival. 2. to supply (oneself) with knowledge of a matter or subject: She informed herself of all the pertinent facts. 3. to give evident substance, character, or distinction to; pervade or permeate with manifest effect: A love of nature informed his writing. 4. to animate or inspire. 5. Obsolete. a. to train or instruct. b. to make known; disclose. c. to give or impart form to. verb (used without object) 6. to give information; supply knowledge or enlightenment: a magazine that entertains more than it informs. I used the word inform so we could look at GOd and Reverence in our scouts oath and law as something as an asction, and the verb inform seemed to do the trick. I'm genuinely baffled as to how scouting can be secular. I think to secularize scouting would be like chopping off our best rationale for the movement along with our source of greatest authority- we have a supernatural mandate to form boys into men who are reverent to there maker. Does this clear things up for you Trevorum? Thanks for you patience. Pappy -
Hiya fellas, I think a good compromise might be to have separate sites out of eye or ear shot but close enough to be there if there is any trouble. THen a lot of issues such as transportaion, being able to travel to better road-trip distanced parks, saftey, and parental concerns are met to a degree. You can even invite each other over for camp visits- say the scouts cook a meal for the ADults, and vice versa. And then back to your ownn camp sites. FWIW Pappy
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Here is what I came up with. Probably pretty useless. T L H F C K O C T B C R The large hippo forgot copper kroners October to buy corn risotto. Ticks lick hairy fat crumb kernels off corn tubers but cant read. I better go and find where I left my life! Pappy
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COMPLAINTS: Vanishing and Moving Messages
Hiromi replied to Beavah's topic in Forum Support & Announcements
The argument could be made that the term is inherently unchristian, in that it is an accusation not unlike the accusation that Jesus was asked to judge in which he stated that he who is without sin throw the first stone. On the other hand - that term is not without utility in describing an aberrant and sinful behavior. I wish that our culture still mostly thought in those terms. There seems to be no shame left in our society- how can you have s***s when virginity is looked on with ridicule- adults put their girls on birth control at 12 and 13, and many if not most kids don't even date anymore - they hook up. Lower the standard and the language becomes arcane. The truth remains- sex out of wedlock is adultery and sinful to a majority of believers in this nation no matter what name you call it. Pappy -
How much should Faith inform Scouting?
Hiromi replied to Beavah's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Beavah, Thanks for considering this worthy of a thread. I think that the best rationale for considering this subject worthy of discussion is that we have formally ensconced in our scouting tradition an Oath based on Honor that we will do our Duty to God, and that we will uphold our mandate to Be Reverent. While we can emphasize some aspects of scouting and deemphasize others, I would think that some would like to just suppose some aspects of the Scout Law and Oath would just disappear or at least be left to the parents. The question is: Reverence to what? How should this reverence be manifested? How does reverence inform a childs and scoutmasters conduct? What is Duty to God? Why should there be a Duty to God. By what authority do we make such oath? What is Honor? How does honor inform our scouting practice. Is Honor and Reverence to a maker consistent? Does duty to maker mean that we must be informed by our particular Faiths creeds and Dogmas? This subject is indeed very ripe. I personally think that scouting, having co-evolved with the American public school system (and its rather insidious form of secularism) has become weakened and insecure about its ultimate aims and mission. Five days a week, 9 months a year, for about 50 years now, the children in Public School have had virtually no talk of God, even in the most watered down sense. This has formed a kind of status quos in our culture that views the Christian Witness, for instance, as a strange pariah - Even though our Judeo-Christian faith was basically the chronicles of the same types of Men and Women. Assuming that the discussion of Heroism is still seen of some value to scouting (though some forum members have stated that BSA clearly doesnt hold up heroism as part of its program), then from this I would continue the line of thinking- What is a Hero? Or for that matter- what is Noble and best in manly conduct? If the idea of Hero becomes completely cleaned of Bible Heroism- Then what have we done to Heroism and to the Model of the Perfect Man? If the Idea of Hero becomes completely cleaned of Military Heroes (As the schools have now been doing for some forty years) Then what are we to speak of when we discuss duty to country- union organizers and peace protesters? What is the new hero of our time- since as one forum member pointed out- we should stickl to our time and not look to by-gone eras with their by-gone ways.? Besides Martin Luther King and Al Gore, it seems like the popular imagination now has become pretty hungry for a model that the Public Schools purged long ago. We speak of self- SacrificeService before Self, Duty, Courteousness, and the like. But we want to keep things religious on the down low. So by what authority do we teach the boys these things? Because they are right- Who says so? Because they are good? According to whom? If we truly dont believe that God Said so then why should the boys believe what Weve got to say about it? It comes down to ultimate authority. It has always been the case. IT is not good enough that Moses wrote laws on a tablet- God Did. Jesus didnt say he was a philosopher or a Talmudic commentator or even a prophet He said that He was sent to us from His Father in Heaven. So are we to take this and then, when we are charged with the formation of boys say- well that may be all well and nice- but we dont want to offend anybody. Wow now thats a gutsy position. How inspiring. Im a Catholic. So I am raised in a Church that tells me that the highest model of Manhood is also an impossible model- that being Jesus Christ. And I have been shown a long tradition of Men and Women who have strove to meet that Model. Mostly they met with very violent demises. They were rarely popular. Even less seldom were they successful by worldly standards. They were alone with God. This solitariness of the Faithful is what I think of when I think of Honor being the highest commodity there is. It is you and God and the condition of your Honor. Only God knows how good you are. Only God needs witness your good deeds for you to receive your reward. Honor is the belief that the most valuable thing in a life is intangible and only the business of you and your creator. So if the heroes of the Bible, The heroes of the Church and the Faith are not to be brought into the discussion of Male Formation in scouting, then we have, I believe, cut ourselves off from a very important stream indeed. What informed Martin Luther Kings vision? What were the language and symbols he invoked? Could you imagine if he had not allowed his faith to inform his thoughts and actions? It comes down to the brass tacks of by whose authority? Are we relativists? Are we a club for boys with a little do-gooderism in there to justify playing in the woods? Or are we a movement born out of the progressive era that has those strong 19th and 20th century idealism that says that progress must be guided by conserving the best our culture has been given. The Modern must be informed by the ancient- other-wise it is with hubris and arrogance that we move forward and our charity becomes nothing but vanity. I was a public school teacher. I have seen the bizarre lengths educators go to follow the fashion of what is new and best and progressive. Scouting cannot follow the lead of Public Education. It must go back always to its Oath and Law to find its bearings, and it should go into the woods to teach boys how to be civilization builders not by leaving no trace (good God, what a damaging concept this has turned into!) - But rather by embracing Gods mandate to be stewards of the land, and master of the fish and the birds. Boy Scouts should be taught to see in a forest the potential to build from her trees, to plant from her soil, to mine for her ore, and cut from her stones to build cities and monuments and machines. The public schools are doing everything they can to emasculate boys, and this has slowly crept into the scouting movement. The bible is chalked full of men and woman who chop off heads, build temples and arks, and lay down their lives for Glory to their creator. We need to use our faith as our best resource for building boys into men because the best models for manhood are found in their pages. I would not argue that Scouting is or should be theocratic But it should encourage the active discussion of Faith and how it informs the Scout Oath and Scout Law and the proper mode of Manly Conduct. Well I have made enough of you angry to keep this thread alive for awhile. Have at it! With Love, Pappy -
Old Grey Eagle- I won't go down that rabbit hole of Ron Paul and the LIbertarians fighting the Federal Bogey man. ALL I was communicating to Mark was if there is a way to construct a home made buzzer that would send off a signal that would be picked up by radios. This might be a neat thing to know if you are trapped in a place- have access to electricity- and want to let the world know you where you are. Besides- Orwell might approve of such a device- because using one would initially get "Big Brother" pretty peeved - until it was reaslized it was just a resourceful BOy Scout tapping code on a home made buzzer gettin the attention to the world to send help. Pappy
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Thanks again Mark. Do know of any good websites that are authoriative on the subject of Morse code and proper emergency transmissions? Would it be a ham radio protocol? Also - do you know anything about making a home-made buzzer that could be used to send transmissions in an emergency? Probably if the scout had access to electrical power, they wold probably have access to a phone - but I always want to know---"what MacGyver would do?" I realize that this sort of device would be illegal in normal use- but if a scout needd to be located, if he sent out a transmission, it could be triangualted rather quickly. Have I been watching too much Star Trek- or what??? Pappy
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Great advice Mark. Yes, when it is taught in meetings, that I use a small keyboard- or I have actually just sang the code on occasions. BUt what you said is absolutley correct. I don't have them think in tems of Dsh and Dot but thing like Da-dooog - Di - it! and other memorable sound combinations. THank you for the feedback. By the way- another scoutmaster told me that John McCain didn't actually ude Morse ode in the VC prison. Do you know what code he used to communicate to his prison mates if not Morse? Thanks Pappy
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Two Changes: How would you give input?
Hiromi replied to John-in-KC's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Gold Winger, My campouts look like Norman Rockwell paintings. So I have seen evidence to the contrary. We chop trees and Saplings down with axes. It is great fun. But did John in K.C. want his thread to contain tit for tats and debates about the veracity of each of our comments he asked for. John- is this what you want? Pappy -
Two Changes: How would you give input?
Hiromi replied to John-in-KC's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Did some one say brainstorm? My favorite kind of weather. 1. Hire a marketing firm to think of ways to sell scouting to Youth and Adults and America. 2. Develop a scout Boy Scout Academy and form an elite Scouting Force, not unlike the Navy Seals, but there mission would be to be a crack scouting outfit- fully uniformed, visually impressive, affable, communicative, and then start filming them in action doing high adventure- troop meeting- conducting patrol meeting. Show us out here how it should be done. 3. This Boy Scout Academy can be virtual- online , or real, either summer or year around. 4. Just think, a 6-12 academy boys can go to to learn to be scouts! 5. SCOUT TV- both satellite- cable, and online broadcast 24-7 Boy Scout television network. Boys all over the country have the opportunity to make contributions to this network and see their unit and accomplishments on TV. It could serve as a clearing house, not unlike this web site for all things scouter and scout. The old coots like us would get the early morning and super late night shows- the boys get all day and prime time! SCOUT TV could feature debate- news, high adventure documentaries, scout history, and information. 6. We should reinstitute the official scout hatchet worn on the belt. We should rethink the belt harness ad a tool and not a green accessory to the scout ensemble. We should get rid of the current buckle- it is not well made. Go with a more functional weave with grommets and a good bronze buckle. 7. We need to MAN up the uniform and bring in hats that boys will wear that dont look like sports hats. A inexpensive campaign cover -$25 max- a official BSA Booney cap- A specialized BSA baseball cap that has a molded from similar to the Marine Corps- but not imitating the Marine Corps. And of course, we should think about the beret again but look at the berets of our military- they are smaller and they are pretty cool. 8. Council summer camps need to be re-examined. My boys get near 10 months of school a year. They dont want to go to a scout camp if they are going to be sitting in a hot shelter earning merit badges and working on rank advancement. My boys want the adventure. 9. Adventure is getting easier and easier to get to without scouting. We need to make our outdoor adventure uniquely positioned in the marketplace. What can we offer that no one can touch, if anything? Can we promise strong training in such things as climbing, kayaking, caving, rescue, etc. that would make people say- if you want to do it right- those Boy Scouts are the way to go. 10. Esprit de Corps need to be brought back. We need to strongly look at the numbers game and how it erodes our confidence in our product when selling scouting to the most boys we can. Every great institution from the military to colleges and universities, businesses, you name it, has a natural selecting process. I think all boys should be eligible for scouting. It should be an open and welcome door. But I know that young men want excellence. They want the best games. They want their team to be the best. They want to join a force that their peers will say-Man- thats hard, I dont know if I could do it. Why cant we make scouts- or a branch of scouting more elite and more rigorous in both its training, and its expectations? Like a Scouting Academy- or Scouting Corps- or Pappys Raiders or whatever? We pretend to be living in the egalitarian dream but we know that scouting is a very different and unequal experience for all. Instead of it being the luck of lifes lottery that might determine what kind of scout troop you end up in, why cant we also create on place where every0one or most everyone- can agree that THAT place is Hard Corps Scouting. The kids who leave this scout camp will be prepared to be the next generation of Scoutmasters- District Execs, on up. What perks can we offer schools to bring scouting back into the school-yard culture. I wore my Cub Scout uniform to school on Den meeting day, like all the scouts. It was real a point of pride. Why have we lost this? How do we make it plane that the scouting mission is co-commensurate and complimentary to the schools mission? For all the harping about the LDS Church- their idea of making scouting their Churchs official youth program makes one stop and ponder. How can we look to parents and church fathers and leaders and clergy, and sell scouting as a program that compliments their mission? Wouldnt it be nice if we could brand scouting- so we got it into the public imagination that a boy without the scouting experience is some how lacking something important in their formation, in their Socialization in their childhood? And finally- look to those old posters from the 20s through the fifties where scouts are portrayed as classically chiseled heroic figures carrying the torch of lady liberty. Rockwells vision of scouting is the visual image of my vision of scouting. How can we capture that Norman Rockwell vision and create a romantic and nationalistic dynamism and imperative that Boy Scouting is American? Thats my two cents. Pappy -
Hi Fellas, The Handles are in a great fun. In fact, over time the boys were given the opportuity to change there handle. Currelty we have such handles as Smokey bear, Snake Eyes, Saber TOoth, Tank, Pan Am, Chief, and Hog. It is definetly in the spirit of gamesmanship and imagination. I think boys love pretending. ANd the handles help give them a scouter game identity. Those games are more like a klodike (with stations to perform tasks,etc.) then war games. But calling something a mine field, or to be capable of watching for ambushes and trip wirtes and booby traps is a very fun way of teaching that old scout sjkill of being alert to your surroundings. THanks fot the feed back. About the Religion thing. I submited it with paragraphs. I think OGE, when he removed my name at the bottom, somehow inadvertantly compressed the text into that blocky format. It did give it a UNIBOMBER kind of screed feel, didn't it? SOrry for that. I am very interested in scratching up conversation about things like "How much should faith inform scouting?" Or "WHat should be the foramtion of young men, why, by whose authoirty, how, and should it be scouting that does the forming?" Another question BEav or OGE, Are we able to go into our old threads and edit them after they have been submitted?? Pappy
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Besides, those staves make superlative fighting staffs. Especially on logs over a nice brook. I one time found myself against a portly friar from our parish who had the audacity to not allow me to pass over the log first. He made quick work of me I can tell you! How was I to know he was once a Knight Hospitalier! I'm off to join my band of merry men to make for mischief for the Sherif of Knodingham. Tallyho Bob - you old Saxon Dog! Pappy-hood
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Censorship- Sometimes it happens
Hiromi replied to OldGreyEagle's topic in Forum Support & Announcements
evmori, There was a concern expressed to me in PM that the google search engine was directing the words with the CO name towards our heated discussions that involved many amazingly negative critiques of my integrity, including epitaphs cpmparing me to a certain German political party of the 1930's and 40's. THis association may have been very unfortunate for the CO and for that matter for me and for our unit. I do suspect that there may have been conversations (though I am only specualting here) that may have brought up libel or slander. Certain members seeemd to have fabricated information and used it disparage another member as a fraud (that being me).. THe other remarks, including me being called or likened to a child endangerer, a disembler, prevaricator, imposter, BSA hater, fascist, humbug, and even false prophet, may have gone into the decison to cut the lines and left that raft sink. SO I am very sympathetic to this line or reasoning. Even though I have sno personel reservations about being a public person. For more sparkling gems from the Fountainhead of Pappy's magic Campaign Cover, go to the thread "All things Pappy" in the Issues and Politics Thread. Pappy