Hiromi

RangerT wrote: "It sounds like Pappy has created a pre Vatican II Catholic Ranger troop using only what he wants to from the methods of the BSA" What is this pre-Vatican II Ranger Troop you write of? I never heard of it. Pappy

Gold Winger, Thanks for the correction. Duly Noted. I like Boss of the Plains!Our town's founders are refered to as those that "Broke the Priaire", so it fits. We'll go with that. Pappy

Young Knights of the Empire by Sir Robert Baden-Powell http://meritbadge.net/books/YoungKnightsOfTheEmpire/part14.htm Interesting thread. "..I had the pleasure, too, of meeting the Chief Scout of Belgium, Dr. de Page, the director of a splendid hospital for Belgian soldiers given by the people of Great Britain. His three sons are Scouts, two of them serving in the Army, and the youngest doing his bit in the workshop attached to the hospital--where they make their own instruments, such as scalpels, scissors, etc. Finally, I had an interview with King Albert of Belgium.

I have a100 percent uniformed organization. The Boy Scouts just formed their own patrol last night (six Boy Scouts). The Cub Scouts have been put into two dens of 7 each. The only deviation from BSA proper uniforms is that everyone at my CO's scouting organization wears the Khaki Tan and either Campaign cover or green baseball cap ( depending on the activity). Yesterday the newly formed Dens and Patrol voted on individualized neckerchiefs, designed there own Den and Patrol flags, mottos, and yells. (Allowing a lot of patrol culture into the den experience). My female ASM h

Yeh Dan, You guys all sound pretty gay to me, but I won't assume you are homos. And if you were, I wouldnt think any less of you. But I just think that there is little practical difference between gay boys camping together and hetero boys and girls camping together. I wouldn't let my sons go camping with girls- because I have sense enough to understand that this is an opportunity for sex. Sam goes with a unit that openly welcomes gay scouting. It is just common sense. If you want to keep the sex act away from scouting (And I think we should)- do your best to curb the opportunit

I found the ceremony when I first witnessed it t be pretty ridiculous. Especially since as Christians of European ancestry we have rituals and symbols that actually hold actual meaning and relevance to our scouts. The romance of Indjuns and Cowboys and Knights and Soldiers is all real for boys, as Bob White alluded to. But I for one do not appreciate the Disney aspect to Cub Scouting. And as many of you know- I have edited our Cub Scouting experience to fit what I believe our COs mission is- The Formation of Christian Men. We replace the imagery of current Cub Scouting with the illu

LisaBob, I never argued that BSA is monolithic. Who has? Bob White? Old Grey Eagle? Beava? No- I can't think of anybody I have read on this forum. I think the myth of the monolith is problematic if it is actually believed in. I think we all pretend that we are part of the same movement because there is a fear of the reality that we are all actually just faking something that shouldn't be faked. We shouldn't be afraid. We should just all be more creative and more assertive and more loyal to our core values. And if that loyalty leads us down different paths- so be it. I thin

LisaBob, My faith guides me that I fear no man. And I can assure you that I dont fear Homosexuals. But I do fear that we are letting go of our God-given duty to parent our children. I think that the concerns I had about scouting and sexuality are not the same as fears. I do fear that radical liberals are having a deleterious effect on generations of Americans. I do fear that while most of America slumbers a radicalized and organized and educated element are doing their darndest to overcome the best values in America and on Earth. I do fear that Godlessness leaves ope

Lisabob, You seem to always be extolling the virtues of a properly followed BSA organization you really want me to believe that you represent the majority of good-scouting practices that exists out there in the ether and yet you seem to hold its policy on homosexuality in contempt. Wow. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Why doesn't BSA just come out and open up to Atheists and Homosexuals LisaBob if it isnt a morality issue? What's the harm? And Lisa bob, do you honestly believe that homosexual scouts would be any less inclined to break the ban on sexual activity dur

Packsaddle, I think what the world statistically thinks is normal- and what is good, beautiful, and true- will always be about 180 degrees out of phase. I think opening up scouting to all is probably inevitable. But so is opening up pornography to all as well. The local option for morality and conforming to the word of God will continue as well. And that is why the schism is an inevitable. And it will probably fall along similar fault lines of the ever widening red state blue state cultural chasm. Pappy

Yes DanKroh, that would be, let me see- oh yeah - Blue State. Why should BSA ban sexual conduct during camping?- especially since it would be pretty hard to enforce with the buddy system and scoutmasters not allowed in boys's tents. Oh yeh, I forgot- "Scouts Honor, Scoutmaster Ken, Bruce and I didn't share sleeping bags last night." That works so well with kids in general- why wouldn't it work with BSA? Pappy's solution -- Salt Peter for all! It worked for my Dad's expeditionary force in the Philippines. Pappy Pappy

So Merlyn, That being said, are you for pro-orgy scouting as well? And if you are not- by what moral standard do you have the right to ban this type of behavior- since nothing is normal or abnormal in yours and Packsaddles alternate universe? The idea of with-holding self-gratification is at the core of scouting and nobility (Being helpful to OTHERS at all times). IF we embrace all gratification as being acceptable then what a group of scouters or scouts do in the privacy of their own tent or behind that yonder ridge, should be nobodies business. If that is the case- then we m

DanKroh, I am not an expert on this issue of transgender. And I found the Wikipedia article very educational. But I do have a problem with identity politics. It lends itself to balkanization. And I have noticed that many groups make their particular sexual orientation the focus of their identity. I think this is troublesome. You also mentioned that heterosexuals can exhibit sexual deviance. I agree- sexual deviance is pretty universal. But an open adulterer is as much of a problem to a community of scouters as would be a Homosexual player. They are a destabilizing influences o

I think this wikipedia article does a pretty good job of explaining the defition and history and issues of normalizing trangenderism and identity around sexual orientation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender But the issue, ladies and gents, is in the "normalizing" of things. If we make everything ok, then what does not become "OK" are the faith traditions that do in fact discriminate about appropriatness. A value-judgement-free world with its laws that mandates to protect it becomes a world at odds with a "timeless values" world view - i.e. scouting and many faith tr

I fully understand Packsaddle, that when you say that life-style is not a part of your BSA program. But we are dealing with boys - who are often pretty obsessed with all things sexual. They are looking for answers and models of conduct. I don't hate people - and my Church mandates that I love all God's children. But if someone's lifestyle is at odds with the beliefs of a community, and that community has a values organization in place to promote and nurture those values, don't you think a problem might arise? Also- if a scoutmaster was openly an apostate - he probably would have no

Bob, Yes, both, precisely.

Hi Bob, I said that I don't blame the culture war or any one else for my failures at retention and recruitment. I blame myself. In fact- you might be glad to hear that I have been moviing my two units which have been unconventional and consolidated into a more conventional bifuracted BSA state. I will manitain an advanced Denner leadership experience because I believe this has been a very good experience for the boys. I fully plan on recieveing my woodbadge and cope training. I have not rejected BSA. I have merely allowed my own judgement and taste to guide me in my efforts of formi

HI Bob, I have a pretty moderately successful unit for my area. I have seen two packs dissolve over the same period of time in my town. Some long established by the book troops have had plummeting numbers. I only blame myself for my numbers (Average of 20- currently 20)- not the culture war. Before I took over the Pack and formed a Troop where none had ever existed scouting was pretty much non existent at my CO. Now we have a highly visible after-school scouting program. While our older boy retention is not high, we are pulling more and more tigers and cubs into our unit then ever b

You are right, Old Grey Eagle, that the Battle of Pork Chop Hill refers to a pair of related Korean War engagements during the spring and summer of 1953. These actions, occurring as the conflict was drawing towards a negotiated armistice, were controversial in the United States because of heavy loss of life in battles for terrain of no apparent strategic or tactical value. (One could say that the energy fighting the Boy Scouts can be seen as such a fight). The first battle was described in a book of the same name by S.L.A. Marshall, from which was made the film Pork Chop Hill. The first b

Hey Bob, How do you know how much luck I have been having with my scouting unit? Have you been speaking to your 'Friend' at Illowa Council again? Havent you already learned that you cant always believe what you here from that guy? The relative success or failure of my little Scouting unit has really nothing to do with any arguments I have presented on this thread. Youre the one who has argued for a credibility litmus test for posters in this forum. What should the minimum retention and recruitment requirement of a Scouters unit be for them to be eligible to contribute Bob? (Assu

Old Grey Eagle, I don't think being a liberal or a conservative should have anything to do with scouting. But the scouts, along with many of our institutions, are under (cultural) fire by an organized and highly motivated movement with a programme of deconstructing the republic along "identity political lines." I personally would love to see BSA successful amongst all American so-called groups. I think it is an incorrect point of view to put BSA in this fight. But their is a programme to balkanize America along identity lines, and this bodes poorly for BSA. The conservatives did

Seven Signs of a Falling Nation No government, kingdom or society lasts forever. Here are seven factors that contributed to ancient Romes demisewarning signs that exist today within the nations of the American and British peoples. By Bruce A. Ritter http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070831-002-ssoafn.html?cid=EMAF001 (This message has been edited by Pappy)

Bob, Why would you assume that culture wars can never end? I agree that they may turn into long and protracted holding actions, but wars often have victors. "Never in our time?" I dont think the Civil Wars toll on this nation could have been foreseen by the culture warriors of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. American Leftists were blind to Stalins barbaric evil even when they saw it with their own eyes. Rwandans were dealing with a culture war until it started using machetes. There is real power to change our nation in the public schools. If the left contin

Excerpted from On My Honor: Boy Scouts and the Making of American Youth by Jay Mechling, published by the University of Chicago Press. 2001 "The religious conservatives who control the national office of the Boy Scouts see themselves as important troops in the culture wars. If religion, masculinity, and citizenship are as tangled as the rhetoric of the Boy Scouts and others seems to make them and if, as so many historians and social critics have suggested, there is evidence everywhere of a "crisis in white masculinity," a status revolution in which white males feel like the beleaguered c

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08-10-europe-religion-cover_x.htm From USA TODAY Religion takes a back seat in Western Europe "The separation between church and state in Europe is becoming standard. After vigorous debate, European leaders rejected any mention of the role of Christianity in a new constitution for the 25 European Union countries. Italy's nominee for justice minister of the EU, Rocco Buttiglione, was rejected because he was openly religious and condemned homosexuality. Asked by USA TODAY about the consequences of the decline of religion, Buttiglione said, "