Hiromi

The problem may be that more inclusion speaks volumes- as does more exclusion. Maybe what BSA needs to do is just get out of the Values business all together and be an outdoor program par excellence. No oath to a higher being, no difficult language like reverence. This seems to be the trend any ways. From what I have seen, Scout law and the oath have been going the way of the uniform in BSA. Kids hate uniforms it seems. Kids dont want to live by some Victorian notion of honor and manners. Parents dont seem willing to enforce these standards with their boys so why should scouting?

Maybe you're all right. I wish it were so. But I think that BSA needs to communicate better that it is what you say it is. I think that it may be wishful thinking that we can all find in BSA something to meet the various needs of the public in a scouting program. I think if BSA wants to both expand membership and to prevent Schism, they need to allow for irregular variations of BSA that specialize towards the values of different constituencies. But the way I see it there are two very distinct camps that are at odds over fundamental outlooks on the world, the environment, polit

Beav, I tend to agree with you Beav. The scouts are definitely the baby in the bath water in this conflict. Boy scouting does have at its center both a progressive liberal streak AND a notion of conserving an idea of what is best and decent and productive about man and civilization. But the various emotional issues have tried to re-engineer basic tenants and assumptions about the role of Man in his environment. They have become hostile to the Judeo-Christian ethic and cosmology in a Nation where its majority is Judeo-Christian by sensibility and belief. We may have come to an i

Lincoln needed to wage the bloodiest war in our history to maintain unity. I was offering a hypothetical peaceful solution so more Americans can experience National scouting. Pappy

LISABOB, Everything has become political. Schooling children, religion, consumption (Wal-Mart or Target?), Pro-life or Pro choice? Birth Control- Abstinence?, News Media Choice (CNN or FOX) - and yes- even what activity you pt your son into. I know many people who think BSA is a fascist organization. These same people think that George Bush and most Republicans are fascists as well. These people may be grossly incorrect in their view of BSA, but it is their perception. I know many people who think Christians are very stupid, ignorant, brainwashed, mean-spirited, closet fasc

I saw the crack first form under your feet Old Grey Eagle- even though you were quick to point at all the other posters in the room in denial. LOL Just kidding. I wasn;t thinking of you Old Grey Eagle. This is a theoretical exercise. I don't have science to back up my claim about the cultural/ideological divide in our country- it is more of a gut instinct. I think John Edwards was right about two Americas - but just not in the way he described them. There are two camps in this country that feel that there is a cultural war being waged against them. There is a third and much larger ca

I would find it interesting to hear what you'all imagine a Red State/Blue State scouting organization might look like. I wrote those descriptions in haste and not as a fixed programme. And Lisabob, I think that what we have currently in scouting is more like that purple color you describe. But some people prefer red- and others prefer blue- and some of them really don't care for the other color at all. Pappy

I agree with Nessmuk's assessment of Scouting in the Thread Scouting Philosophy Divisions ". I don't wish the BSA to have a schism, but I also don't wish to be a member of and promote a movement which goes against my fundamental ethics and beliefs..I predict BSA will very likely see a major schism (like a 50 /50) if there is an elimination or major relaxation of our stance on one or more key issues like religious beliefs and God or acceptance of homosexuals as members..Oddly I don't think such a schism will reduce the impact or presence of scouting, but will likely draw many people towar

"A scout is reverent. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful to his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." It is better to go through life looking up to things that we love and respect, because they are better than ourselves, than to go through life looking down upon ideas and people as inferior to ourselves. This is a statement of two extremes, and almost every one's outlook lies somewhere between them. When we go through life with the habit of respect for wise ideas and good people, we do it because we feel the value of the

I agree with Nessmuk's assessment. I think a schism may be inevitable and maybe even preferable if we consider our nation and where it is headed. It will, in my estimation, reflect the cold civil war that seems to currently being waged in our country with no end in sight. Maybe a thread could be titled- Blue-State BSA / Red State BSA. The Blue State Boy Scouts Liberals, especially of the radical variety, might be attracted to a scouting that mirrored more of what the European and Canadian scouts are doing. They can be lax on uniforms, have homosexual and transgender familie

Hello fellas, I don't want to reiterate my former thoughts on this subject posted on various threads throughout this site, but why should a boy listen to anything anybody says if authority stems from the biggest baddest adult in the room? If authority is not derived from God, then our founding documents are just colorful nonsense and we are merely renegades and rebels of the British Empire. If what you are saying is correct, then Jesus was either a liar, totally mad, or both. Unless of course, you play the card that says that someone put words in his mouth he never uttered. The

Packsaddle, Main Entry: reverence Pronunciation: \ˈrev-rən(t)s, ˈre-və-; ˈre-vərn(t)s\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin reverentia, from reverent-, reverens respectful, reverent Date: 14th century 1: honor or respect felt or shown: DEFERENCE; especially : profound adoring awed respect2: a gesture of respect (as a bow)3: the state of being revered4: one held in reverence used as a title for a clergyman It seems to me that reverence has as an implication a respectful and mannered response to a powerful reality tha

I stand corrected Gold Winger. I was trying to Goad you. And Beav, Well said. You have a charitable spirit. Christ was born into a Greek world -not a Latin one. The lingua-Franca for the Empire was Greek. Even Romans required Greek language skills for civil service jobs. This is why the Gospels were written in the KOINE (Common) Greek. Wealthy Romans would hire or acquire Greek Slaves to be their childrens tutors. Romans who had pretensions of being well-heeled embraced Greek culture, philosophy, religions, and science. It was the most widely understood language throughout the Alexan

Calico, The Scout law is not written to affirm the status quos but to serve as a guide and a corrective. Four million Frenchman CAN be wrong (and often are). American is increasingly becoming secular. This is a problem. Scouting, following that lead, would lower itself once again. Look to the Canadian Scouting program. Do you want a transgender scouting as well? That seems to be the trend. Pappy

BadenP, As I stated before, people can find this stuff out for themselves. They don't need you or I to enlighten them. I didn't begin this thread. But if you want to believe that Christ didn't give the Church to Peter, and make a coveneant to him that what he bound on Earth would be bound in heaven than be my guest. And congratulations on your degrees. Yours in Christ Pappy

Hi Folks, Here is some more background information expaninding on what Fire Cat and the others were refering to. Thanks to the folks at Wikipedia. The Biblical canon is the set of books Christians regard as divinely inspired and thus constituting the Christian Bible. Though the Early Church used the Old Testament according to the canon of the Septuagint, the apostles did not otherwise leave a defined set of new scriptures; instead the New Testament developed over time. The writings attributed to the apostles circulated amongst the earliest Christian communities. The Pauline epistle

Hello Lovers, As I originally stated - I was just trying to get Gold Winger's Goad. AS far as I'm concerned, the authorship of the Bible is ultimately the Holy Spirit. It is not worth quibbling over. I think that all people benefit by the conversation and knowledge of history. The origins of Scouting- and what BP's and Beards' and the rest original intent was -is no less interesting to me than learning about the Founding fathers of our country or the early Church fathers. I meant no disrespect. Catholics have much to learn from Protestants on a number of fronts: whether from t

History of usage of the term "Catholic Church" and what was meant by its use. Dear BadenP, If this thread is to become a historial deabate about the existence of the Catholic Church from the time of Peters Apostolate until the present day, then I am perfectly willing to contribute to this forum any evidence to support such a thesis, which I believe to be patenly true and not some wishful aberant revision of reality. A letter written by Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna [1] around 106 A.D. is the earliest surviving witness to the use of the term "Catholic Church" (Letter to

Hey Gold Winger, You quote one of the most un-boy-scout-like fictional characters of all time to make your case? OR were you just being ironic? Here is a little more (courtesy of Wikipedia) about the character you would have us beleive should be our spirit guide? "Gordon Gekko is a fictional character from the 1987 film Wall Street. Gekko was portrayed by actor-producer Michael Douglas, in a performance that won him an Oscar for Best Actor. In the film, nave stock broker Bud Fox, played by Charlie Sheen, comes to work for the ultra-aggressive, power-hungry Gekko. Fox is loosely

Hello Campers, I have to take issue with Bob WHite on a small matter he wrote about. I think that you were wrong in that other post Bob to suggest that just because you can get POO TOAST from POT ROAST, Either Poo or Toast constitute real Pot Roasting. POO TOAST is really disgusting Bob. And Pot Roast is really scrumptious. They may share the same letters Bob - but they are NOTHING alike!!!!! I will admit that TOAST may go with ROAST, and you can certainly POO in a POT, BUT surely you would agree Bob that the relationship to POO ROASTING AND POT TOASTING are separate activities

Dear Beav, The History of Christianity has heroes and villains distributed pretty even-handedly. For every indulgence abusing priest and sadistic inquisitor, one can easily recall the Rabid Anabaptist or totalitarian Calvinist. Humans are fallible. The Church has had many reforms in its history, as well has its Schismatic Brethren in Christ. The Catholic Church was the first Church. From the earliest writing of the Church fathers and the Acts of the Apostles the majority of the liturgy and the Sacred Texts we celebrate today was emerging and becoming solidified by the second and t

Pappy Hey guys, I was just being my obstreperous self. I didn't say we own the bible, or the good news it contains. IT is for anybody who wants it. As a Catholic, I am taught to pray for all souls. And I am also taught that like it says in the bible, wherever three people meet in Jesus Name, He will be there. We believe that anyone is legitimately baptized if it is done with water and the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit are invoked. And finally, the Catholic Church has never proclaimed the certainty of anyone going to hell over anything. Ex-communion onl

Hey everybody, and especially Bobwhite, Its me, Pappy. If you guys want to beat somebody up - you are always invited to come over to my thread - "All Things Pappy". I have a Pot Roast of my own on, along with a lot of offensive smelly chilies, goulashes, and mystery stews- Heck, you can even bring fire-works and long sheath knives along for all I care. We throw nasty unnatural things in my fire that make pretty colorful flames and awesome sounds and terrible smells. We don't practice "Leave no trace" but "Slash, burn, and build!". So come and leave your trace. And I swear my bes

Hello Brothers and Sisters in Scouting, It all goes to the deeper question of why do we do anything anyways? If it is the pleasure principle then we are no better than animals (tough-turkey you dog lovers they aint people I dont care how they look at you). Man is either a noble creature made in the Divine image and thus capable of striving towards Christian perfection, or he is just another animal pretending to be better than his zoo-mates. To the believers- it truly is - either or. The interiority of a developed spiritual life gives man his real strength to stand up agai

Our troop has probably attended 15 or so masses in the last five years. Always SM and ASMs and unit in full uniform- stinking of camp fire, and sitting prominently in the front rows. A number of times, the scouts have been invited to bring up the gifts. It is a great way of generating both FOS and observing the Scout Law. It has been a very rewarding part of the scouting experience. It helps the scouts to be proud of their uniform because the congregation always shows their appreciation. Pappy