anarchist

Our PLC meets for one to one and a half hours on the first Tuesday of every month. This is to plan for the comming month and work on "issues".

Only the SM or his designate ASM attend. no other adult unless the PLC has need of planning information, at which time they might ask the Adult grotto member (caving) or the Adult high adventure leader, canoeist ( or whatever adult might have some expertise they require) to attend to help them plan.

They also generally have a PLC cracker barrel after camp set-up on Friday nights at our campouts to discuss plans for Saturday''s activities and to make planning adjustments.

SPL sets the adgenda, SM helps energize and trys to stay out of the way.

ANY boy in the troop is welcome to attend the PLC but only as an observer, unless and until open discussion is called for. Only the green bars have the right to vote...where votes are appropiate.

We tried the 30 minutes before meetings (several times and it was a flop...Major issues with scouts being on time, having enough time to plan and then of course there were the odd parent (or three) trying to horn in or complain about something..

How we get them there? The SPL has a phone tree and and email tree and finally the meeting follows by one night our monday meeting so it is announced at least twice during the weekly troop meeting.

Green bars are expected to take the junior training, get SPL/PL handbooks, job discriptions and a list of expectations. The PLs are required, if unable to attent a PLC, to have either their APL or scribe attend...more over the PL is expected to have fully briefed his "replacement" about what is needed or what is going on in their patrol so the "stand-in" is not always telling the SPL "I don''t know". Then there is the leadership agreement to stand for the PL job...Miss two PLCs without back-up arrangements and your APL replaces you as PL...Quick and easy -do your job or get out of the way.

As to the "blank paper temper tantrum" caused by scouts not bringing paper and pencils...These meetings are held at the same place we hold our troop meetings and each patol keeps a notebook on site so there is an ongoing record that is easily available to the PLs (though, reading them is somewhat frightening and sometimes very difficult)!

Openings and closings for the PLC were decided (by the boys) to be a waste of time so they simply call the meeting to order and at the end call for motion to adjourn...Just like many adult meetings....their reasoning was, after all, they do the pledge, the law, the promise and the outdoor code as an opening at each troop meeting... and close with a prayer and a scout circle...bases covered...move on...

but it takes a lot of work to get there...and constant work to keep it going...some years are better and easier than others...some SPLs are real gems and some are ...er "diamonds in the rough"...takes a great SM to make it work-well...(glad its not me)

Anarchist

curtes,

well that''s one way...another would be to check with some of the bigger (if any) outdoors gear shops in your area and see if they sponsor "swap" meets (usually in the parking lot)and see if they will let you participate. A third would be to check with your district round table leaders and see if they can set up an equipment yard sale area at a few of the roundtables this year...would be a great addition to some programs...

You could also organize it yourself as a troop fund raiser...a town-wide yard sale at some shopping center parking lot -where every troop would pay (your troop) a small fee and "civilians" would pay a larger fee to rent parking spaces to put out stuff....could be a "hoot"...You could sell dogs, burgers and drinks...little local advertizing, talking it up at the round-tables? Might even try to tag it to a local festival or parade...

Anarchist

I''m guessing you already have this suggestion in the back of your mind...but here goes.

We frequently take young (new) scouts on our Twenty mile hikes. But we alway plan escape routes (just like our bike hikes) where we can "evacuate" a scout at reasonable intervals. Even living in the sticks and hiking the AT we have ways to pull boys off the trail if need be.

In almost all cases we let the younger scouts know that there will be parents and refreshments at say "five miles", "ten miles",and so on. In fact in most cases we announce the longer day hikes as having segments for whatever portion of the merit badges they need...It allows each boy (or patrol) to plan and challenge himself as he sees fit.

Very few new scouts have the mental desire to walk 20 miles and by making it "reasonable" and without negative connotations (i.e.,"Johnie dropped out")you give them a chance to "try" hiking without the major fear of failure. New scouts can build themselves up- five , ten then twenty miles. And like backpacking, we spend time in troop and patrol meetings working on prep for these trips. Nothing turns a new scout off faster than un-necessary pain and failure...teach, condition, train... then execute...the outcome will be better for all!

good luck

Anarchist

Its Me,

When I was a Boy Scout ( just after the time of Moses)I belonged to a troop that owned its own very old BSA two man canvas wall tents. Still remember the faded pastel green color and the fact that they were heavy suckers. Then after a couple of years of fund raising the troop purchase new fangled BSA nylon tents which were bright orange and very light weight. At the time I did not really appreciate the "troop look"...I was too busy having fun. When my boys came to this troop it only owned two ratty moldy tents...and everyone was expected to provide "private tents".

In addition to our camps looking like the circus was in town, the quality and water tightness of tents was all over the place. Parents would try to buy cheap and the kids would get wet or the tent would fall down in the slightest breeze or a strong blow would destroy the tents altogether.

Being a gear-head, I started a program to obtain our own troop tents and we successfully obtained 21 Eurika Timberline 2 XTs and 6 timberline 4 XTs (which we use as 3 or 4 boy tents) over the course of about two years.

The very first use was at a district camporee and the pride of the boys in setting a camp that really looked like a unit...a REAL BOY SCOUT TROOP was evident. One older scouts remarked that our neatly ordered camp made it actually look like the troop knew what we were doing...whether or not we actually did!

They have held up well...we train our quartermasters to be "really anal". Tent is checked out at each event (we use a form) to a set of scouts and checked back in dry and with all parts actually shown to the QM before acceptance...any rain, snow, etc., results in tents going home to dry and QM stays on top of the scouts by email and phone to bring them in ready for inspection before or right after the next meeting.

On canoe trips or backpacking if a boy really wants to use his own tent we have no problem with it. But Troop tents mean that any boy regardless of family money situation can be housed in a good quality, dry tent.

Adults occaisionally use troop tents (usually at Camporees) but may use their own if they desire. What I have found is many of the parent now own their own Timberline tents...so they can look like they belong...to the troop.

We keep a stock of spare parts and repair kits (only need one brand) and we can fix almost anything in the field.

Hope it helps

Anarchist

funscout and all,

Our adults model the patrol method. When we finish event the sign-up sheet, we kick around a few meals, take requests and select a grub master. Depending on the "crew", sometimes we eat well and sometimes we eat "out of this world". This usually depends on the folks in the group(and their idea of good food) and of course, also on the constraints of the program we are supporting.

On "Money Monday" everyone ponys up $12.00-$20.00 (depending) and the grub master''s crew goes shopping...This money includes everything needed including charcoal and ice (if coolers are in the plan). There is absolutly no reason for anyone to get "stuck"...on subsidize other adult campers. If the budget is $10.00...eat cheap...it can be done if necessary...but for a few dollar more...you can eat better. Just make it clear everyone pays the freight...at every campout.

And just for the record any adult wishing to "eat on his own" may do so...We did have a dad once who had just bought a bunch of high-tech back packing gear and wanted to try it out. He had ramen noodles, oat meal, and an "Open Country beef stew back packing meal"...Unfortunately, he picked a car camp weekend and the adults had Hungryman for breakfast, kraut and brats for lunch and smoked prime rib, crab stuffed mushrooms, steamed green beans with almonds and sweet onions, baked potatoes and apple/cherry cobbler for dinner...he has never forgotten that mistake...

And Just for consideration...by eating really well we demonstrate to all the scouts that you can eat so much better than poptarts and canned raviolli on a campout; that cooking can be fun and entertaining; that the patrol method can spread the hard work around; and further by working as a unit you can finish the task quickly and have a good time while you are doing it. Our adults laugh and joke and usually have a great time...and are almost always finished as quickly as the boys...

anarchist

Welcome, but as usual I am not going to be as nice nor as nurturing as John-in-Ky...

Wonder, I wonder, if there is some info missing here?

Could the spring trip be a time-honored "prize" for salesmanship and excellent troop support and spirit? It would not be that unusual to have a super "prize" for a super sales effort, now would it? And letting folks who did not sell "super amounts" would sorta undermine the purpose now wouldn''t it? Just wondering...

Then there is your obvisous dislike of the "sell popcorn or pay $100 dues", in away a condemnation of the troop being honest and upfront, it would seem...Sorry, I would be "drawing" my checkbook out faster than John Wayne "slapping leather" in one of his western "shoot ''em ups"! $100 is a bargain for a strong program...or to avoid the dreaded popcorn sales-(and selling anything else for that matter)!

Strong arm tactics? (your words), Sorry I don''t see it with the small amount of info you have given...

Please do not take this wrong, but it is easy to see you are not a very good fit for that troop...A new comer- and you have already judged their seemingly open and honest operational policies as "strong arm tactics"! Please do yourself (and them) a favor and move on to another troop...you (all) will be happier in the long run.

Anarchist

Highcountry,

what am I missing?

...you wrote "To me, having 4 completely different menus and grocery lists is a collosal waste of time,"

Whose time is wasted? Four groups of boys planning at the same time- takes the same half hour? Then they Shop on their own time? So where is the waste...work yes, waste ...don''t see it!

...then you wrote "and trying to get 4 sets of boys out to get groceries is not going to happen."

Of course it won''t...not if the Adult leaders do not help the SPL and PLC make it happen.

...Then you wrote "The other problem si (sic) that we have scouts sign up and drop out, others get in on campouts at the last minute. This makes it useless for a patrol where one scout shows up to run his own meal program and others who have late add ons being short food."

Only if your troop lets them...Once your SPL and PLC have a proper program in place such inconsiderate B.S. is not accepted. If a scout drops- he has already paid for his food and camp fees in advance...and gets no refund. If he does not pay in advance -it''s simple- he does not go..and the patrol does not plan or shop for him. And the policy if you want to be "nice" should be -''no one signs up late without providing his own transport and food; so it is no dragg on the patrol.

Once Scouts and parents are faced with consequences, folks tend to get with the program. . A single scout can function if trained...tasks that require "extra hands" can be assisted by other scouts (some of the green bars?) or adults. Really young scouts can be ''adopted'' by another patrol if necessary...after all the "adoptee" would have an excess of food to suppliment the adopting patrol...that they could share at no cost...such a deal.

finally (for this reply), you wrote "My goal is that they all plan the meal, divide who cooks what dishes, consider nutrition and generate the grocery list, when campot comes, the food is there and they each cook their one dish by patrol per meal"

Lets face it, large groups rarely plan...effectively or efficently nor is the planning usually shared across the group...a few ''chiefs'' step up and make the plan (or menu) and others, (particularly the younger ones) "go along" and learn nothing or very little. It''s sorta like "troop" teaching the first aid merit badge to 30 boys (at the same time)...three or four scouts might actually learn something that matters (at least in their long term memory banks)...but the all boys seem to get "credit" for one or two boys answers. (Such a deal?)

Have the patrols practice meal planning, shopping list generation, cost estimates (webelos work really) with older scouts doing suggestions, "thorns and roses" or critiques (call it what you will)...For the actual event have the SPL/ASPL approve/suggest alternate items for menus at the meeting just before the grub master and his food gang collect money and go shopping.

What I really see in your post is "wishing to do it right" but more fear. Fear that unless your adults don''t baby sit and organize play dates, the program will fall apart and die...Most likely you will lose some

"lazys", but over time you will have a better program and in the end you will have done more good than you ever could being a tour guide and ''sitter''.

"been through it and have seen the better way!"

Anarchist

did I miss it or has someone mentioned...

none -they just sit around the campfire and curse the darkness?

grins

yeah, what beavah said...

like all children who have been over-protected and spoon fed...they are really clueless...they talk a good game and that''s about it...execution is a total loss. I was working with a NSP once at the local grub store and witnessed an ASM who had taken over an (up-until-then) spoon-fed patrol...he would not lift a finger until they got to the check-out...which they did in record time...At which point this ASM (who was an experienced restauranteur) would ask a single question which was designed to make the scouts think about the meals they were cooking and "discover" they had forgotten something. The man did this time and time again...and spent over two hours "helping" the grub master and shopping crew with groceries...Our NSP worked through their shopping (it was their second or third camping trip and did pretty well.

When we left the store, the older scouts were still grasping for supplies...but he was not going to spoon feed them...And after two or three more camping trips they actually started catching on... Was it a semming waste of time?...yes, Could he have saved time by making a better list or doing it himself?...again yes! But if he had continued where their old "mentor" had left off they would never have learned a thing.

We all need to understand that it is almost a given that when these boys are tasked with a new or different skill they will need to be walked through it again and, perhaps, yet again. It will be time consuming...maddeningly so at times...the great temptation is the same as we see Troop guides grapple with every campout..."it is easier, and faster just to do it for them (NSPs)". But part of why we are paid the big bucks is to show the dedication to "waste" the time necessary directing and coaching then in how things are done...rather than doing it for them!

As a great SM once told me somewhat tongue in cheek; "Scouting would be so much easier without the scouts...(and their parents), but it would be so much less fulfilling and rewarding!"

Take the time to teach the "tree" to grow straight and strong! The investment in "timber" (and mankind) is worth the effort.

Anarchist

Highcountry,

WOW

no offense, but the organization you belong to sounds like Baby Siters of America to me...not the Boy Scouts.

you have my heart felt condolences...really.

You keep spoon feeding them and what is the motivation for them to grow? or learn? or do for themselves?...IMHO, you are simply implementing play dates for boys...not fostering leadership, independence, or character...certainly not scouting events.

was that over the top...I can never tell, but what do I know...

anarchist

yes!

if he has one.

and his OA sash if he has one

and his uniform ...;>) if he has one...

anrachist

Glad to see the up-date.

On troop guides...I a truely convinced that it is the most important job in the troop. Not every scout can or should be a guide. We try now to give each NSP two guides and we have the ASPL ride herd on the Guides... Guides are about the only position we have "fired" scouts from,if they don''t go on NSP events they get fired fast...guess since it is not elected(?). Having two guides means they can cover for each other and hang occaisionally with their old patrol mates. One final item...NSPs tend to vote "lock step" (as a voting block) for their guide...if he is good, when SPL elections come around...Pretty good motivation to do a good job if a scout is wanting to be the troop leader...

On menu...experience and skill are not really needed...just guidance...a series of discussions about what they eat at home...what are their favorite, favorite foods can result in a menu. If the ASM can influence the guide or PL to just make a list of favorite foods...virtually any meal can be a campout meal with effort and some assistance. Remember, boy led should not mean adults "do nothing"...direct them to the internet, get the SPL involved...fire the guide...

Sometimes the adults have to step in and even if behind the curtain ("pay no attention to the man behind the curtain") they can drop hints, offer guidance, make suggestions as to resources ...kick older scouts in the butt...but it is a tremendous amount of work....

Anarchist

I''ll play,

We have been working on a "operating experiment" for the last three years...course the experiment seems to change slightly...each year...

For the first seven years I worked with the troop we were a straight "NSP to Eagle/or out" unit...Worked pretty well but the biggest "wart" was the "over time drop-out" effect. While troop retention is pretty good with lots of boys staying until they turn eighteen, the area is becoming highly transient (sp?). Lots of military and Dot.commers. Result was eight and nine boy patrols slowly whittled down to 4/5/6 scout patrols and the PLC was concerned that two or three scouts on an event could not "act as a patrol" (hog wash! but I am not the SM).

Few years ago we had to recruit an new SM. A great guy, but one who had no Boy Scout experience outside of trying real hard to help his own two kids have a great time in cub scouting...he stepped up and in no time the PLC and he were blending platrols...first for events so there were enough bodies for roster duties...then "because it was better this way" As a committee member "t''wasn''t" my place to be a nay-sayer ...Boy led after all!

We tried letting the boys pick their own patrols....slipped back to "age groupings" with one or two young scouts wanting to be with the older boys...and the older boys really not wanting the younger boys... The younger boys got shut out of leadership positions, and many activities...caving, white water canoeing, rock climbing., long distance hiking...Of course, this led to disturbed parents...and lots of negative "vibs".

Then we tried multi age groupings with the PLC and SPL dividing up the troop (6th -8th grade; 9th-10th grade;11th-12th grade and NSPs)... and these were generally 10-12 scout patrols...and... we had similar issues though not as stark...interestingly two of the patrols ended up with the youngest boys in the patrol (and weakest scouts) as PLs...and the results were they did nothing for much of a year...This was even though each patrol had two ASMs assigned...PLC meetings were great...but all talk and no follow through...poor scout master was spending his entire time on the phone checking up on the SPL and PLs...can you say "not having any fun-burnout"?

It has been tough to watch. Poor Scoutmaster and CC really hate to see me show up at committee meetings and parents meeting because I remind them that they need to constantly be working their boys and they can''t let down...It''s their experiment and failure is not an option. This past summer after Sea Base the patrols returned to age/grade based with NSPs and the only blended patrol being the "high adventure patrol" some 15/16/17 who want to do "cool stuff". So we will see how it goes...we are also looking for a new SM...poor guy wants to decompress for his son''s last two years or so...

''Course, all this being said, part of this problem was brought about by sort of a perfect storm...New SM, two back to back really weak SPLs (gotta work with the ''material'' the boys elect in "boy led troops", don''t cha know!)and a large group of middle scouts who while basically good kids realy do/did not want to work or take responcibility ...they just wanna be indians...not chiefs...so the adults work is that much harder...coaching rather than ordering folks around is difficult work.

A big fan of NSPs

Anarchist

Folks,

Just a quick point about canoe treking...or packing a tripping canoe...

John-in-KC mentioned the possiblity of losing a D.O. in an over turn...

We call it "an unscheduled interior boat wash", but as far as losing stuff...it just ain''t so! If your kit is packed "right" nothng important comes out...because it is all "tied in".

Being a "path less taken" (or should I say "rapids less taken") sort of canoe pusher, I tend to "up-end" more than is really necessary...I am generally the "sweeper canoe" when I do this and after scouting a rapid and getting everyone safely down. my tandem partner and I have a tendancy to "try" other possiblities...adds challenge, zest and stories to the trips...Outside of the odd fishing rod or two, we have never lost an important piece of gear...After packing one of our canoes, you can turn it upside down and lift it up without any thing coming loose. Of course, all of our troop boats as well as my personal boats are rigged for river treking with lots of tie-in points. But a D.O. in a proper D.O. bag with handles can be tied down nicely to a thwart...gear is not just packed into a canoe...its tied in; at least if you are wise.

have fun

Anarchist

been watching this thread develop...

On tour permits...we "cross our tees and dot our eyes" and file a T.P. by fax with council whenever we use our boats...etc.,

along with a float plan...''course in a "quickie trip" the fax might go out on Saturday Morning! Seeing as how even when a T.P. is filed within the "time requirements" of Council they don''t get around to issuing a tour permit "in time" for some events...we don''t loose a lot of sleep over it.

As to putting a fast "quickie trip" together being difficult or impossible - I have a bunch of life and a couple of young eagle scouts who can put together a river trip plan in 20 minutes that no one could pick apart...We keep old plans on file for reference and "ideas" and have an outdoor coordinator whos job is to be our council contact for all tour permits/float plans...It is not rocket science...just fun...

And we give plans to all parents whos scouts are involved... have phone trees set up and we can load our boats and go!

you can really follow the rules and still have a good time...which is really the point isn''t it?

Anarchist

Off the top of my pin head...

Lets start with fire/charcoal cooking:

I am assuming you don''t want to deal with finding stuff in nature to cook...greens, roots, acorns, bugs...you''re just interested in novel ways to cook regular food?

whole fish, cooked on a spit/head down over coals...

cornish hens ( representing pigeon/dove/grouse ''snared'' by the survivor)- smoked/baked -done on a tripod with a foil

"cone"...or better a "wicker" cone covered with wet leaves or grasses (requires ability to cut saplings and thin branches...not a LNT type event...)

chicken or pork cooked in a hot rock pit...need really good bed of coals, big rocks and wet leaves....

egg/bacon roasted on a twig spit...

smoked meat-(all most anything) requires a small sapling rack be built above a smokey fire (charcoal)

- eggs fried on a rock- be carefull of the rocks you use...some crack when heated with a great deal of force!

-bread "baked" in ashes (ash cakes)

-bread on a stick

- eggs and bacon in a paper bag (real gimmick cooking)

build large reflector and bake meat or fish in the sun...takes forever...but can be done.

Then how ''bout cooking on the manifold of your truck...foil meals...requires hot engines or short trips...always funny...

fire or charcoal is best if you are stuck with stoves...you need some type of "pot" (cup -orange peel...etc.)and you risk screwing up your stove...

but you can cook a lot in zip locks and boiling water...eggs, oatmeal, some meats...even ramen noodles...

lets see what other have to say while I have a cup of joe and think on it more....

Anarchist

I''ll play...

First, food choice depends on motivation, time and your inclination...Canoe trips are not back packing...you can eat SOOO MUCH BETTER (MORE GOOD?). Keeping things cold is not as much of a problem as you might think...

Eggs are always an option...and DO NOT REQUIRE a "fridge" for a few days...buy fresh and keep them deep in your "hard" pack and they''ll be fine! (Americans refrigerate way more than necessary!) Pancakes are also fine...On our troops annual 110+ mile James River Trip we have "quick" (bug out) breakfasts for 4/5 mornings and a biggie for 1 or 2 mornings-It really depends on the paddle requirements for the day. "Short" breakfast is jerky, oat meal and bagles with Tang/coca, tea or coffee.

lazy mornings are eggs, spam, canadian bacon...or real smoked bacon...(not the packaged stuff-just cut a "rasher" off and cook), pancakes and fish (take some cajun breading or floor...pancake mix works in a pinch). And any one can cook these items...

Lunches vary...we usually want to stop, eat, rest a bit and go! So prep is as "low drag" as possible. PB&J on bagles early in the trip PB&J on crackers later. Two real favorites are (1.) sliced sausages, cheese and onion slivers on crackers with mustard (or not)...we use several types of summer sausages and pepperoni and hard salami (no fridge needed). Just pull off the river, slice some sausage and cheese and sit back and chill...(though most of out guys "go fishing")...Then the clean up is easy and then back on the river! (2.) the Adults favorite is Chicken salad on pitas...with (or without) finely shredded lettuce and none of it needs to be kept cold...canned chicken, mayo in an un-opened plastic (never glass on the river)jar, sweet relish (again plastic jar) and diced onion all mixed in a large Zip Lock - stuffed into pita halfs (pita keeps well for weeks)and finely shredded lettuce on top...only one utensil dirtied...a knife! Lots of new (though "pricey") foil packaged meals at the stores now...tuna, chicken, salmon and beef... and all pritty good...we use them for back packing a lot!

Dinners can be "quickie" spagetti, (canned sauce and pasta/noodles) canned ravioli (ugh), steaks...(my favorite)(just freeze ''em and when they thaw...thats the night you have steak). Fried fish can suppliment a "short" supper...we use ramen noodles as a side dish as well as canned or fresh corn, canned or fresh green beens, rice, instant mashed potatoes, pork and beans... (remember your trip is a weekend). Chilie- canned or semi fresh (using dehydrated burgers)is a scout favorite with cajun fried catfish on the side....

And of course cobblers...one on a weekend and three or four on the week-long James Trip. We always take a D.O. along...and what we call a "D.O. base"- which is a cheap ($10-20) charcoal grill with short (detachable)legs, so we can heat up charcoal and then use the base as a D.O. cooking surface so we do not scorch the ground (LNT, don''t you know) -Also, it is great for the steaks!

drinks are usually lemonade, tang, cocoa, tea and coffee and some times bug juice (which is what the boys call left over breakfast tang mixed with lunch lemonade)... with a lot of water as we go down the river...

And "lastly", we always take a bucket of peanuts for munching, both on the river and after dinner...and a few large bags of trail mix for the boys to munch on always goes over big.

River tripping is great! Hope you have a good time.

Anarchist

P.S. While currently, we use our back packing stoves- for years we carried either white gas two burner or propane coleman stoves..."the canoes can take it"...Once, years ago I saw a Inuit family in a large (22-24 foot) canoe...several packs, a tarp cover, a rifle and an old beat up Coleman two burner white gas stove was their "kit"...so it has a history.

OGO

you moved the goal post and changed the tune...

"exicute"...a simple typo...but in the future I''ll steer clear of your threads.

Anarchist

OldGrayOwl,

I guess I would ask the question...Why?

Are the patrols so weak that they can not plan and exicute a meal?

but without background it just sounds like the PLC had a bad idea...and you let them run with it...boy led alright.

If it is a matter of having a cooking contest...just set the main food item(s) such as chicken breasts and rice or hamburger and potatoes and see where they end up...judge not only on prep and taste but on originality or imagination! (shepard pie trumps haburgers and fries).

Your last post (or dig?) might just indicate weak patrols, PLC and SPL...rather than folks here not understanding the patrol method...IMHO if you want to head down the road of troop cooking -have at it...just don''t blame it on following boy led...boy led does not mean adult (or SPL) abdication...

If the boys are tired of noodles and junk...who is to blame? Start with the patrol leaders and work your way up the Chain...Train them right and the PLC does not have to short circuit the process.

my three cents.

Anarchist

PLs call parents??

New and very young PLs (new scout patrol) usually do not have the maturity or confidence to explain the "ropes" of patrol activities, expectations and duty rosters...particularly when dealing with a problem scout and his problem parents without "backup".

Adults should deal with adults whenever possible if only to avoid having a promising Young scout leader "walked over" and demoralized by "bully" adults.

Our program starts indoctrinating parents during their sons webelos years. We distribute our troop info sheets at every oportunity. We treat every scout/parent as a potential recruit and bury them in paper for their last year in Webelos...its only paper and the troop policy, scouting aims, patrol method and our expectations are not state secrets. Many times our new scout parents have been given the complete NSP package three or four times by the time they crossover.

We have a shakedown campout for NSPs (only-no older patrols) just the NSPs, troop leaders/guides/instructors soon after crossover (usually within two weeks) and by the time of summer camp the new Scouts have been to two or three other troop campsouts, a District Camporee and their own Patrol only camp.

We actively encourage new parents to camp with us during the shakedown. A trained ASM (or sometimes the SM "cut-out" the NSP parents and literally spends the weekend training them as if they were new scouts (they "become" a patrol (like woodbadge) and are expected to at least dabble in everything their sons across the camp are being taught...and they participate in a duty roster formulation including how to do dishes and "police" their campsite. They work up a practice menu, food/shopping list, learn to sharpen their pocket knives, tie knots...just like new scouts.

This goes a long way towards fostering an understanding of what the troop expects of the new scouts. We also attempt to forwarn moms and dads of typical problems and what they might hear if "junior" is unhappy.

This doesn''t mean you don''t have problems...a weak troop guide, SPL or even a "bad" NSP patrol leader can create issues. But generally you have ironed most of them out by summer camp or at least know which scouts to "watch".

But blaming the troop, program or leaders for every spoiled, whinie, runny nosed, overprotected, "wait on me first" baby that drops out of scouting is plain wrong.

I was once told..."scouting is for every boy...but every boy isn''t for scouting"...I fought the idea, at first. But then it becomes a matter of resources...where to spend your time and energy to do the most good...do your best and don''t beat yourself up too badly

Anarchist

Wag bags, are a portion of the PETT environmentally friendly portable toilet and are OK...about the size of a small kitchen trash bag with powder (chemical) designed to be placed within the ''toilet'' bag suspension system and held in place by the toilet seat. Comes with a set of rubber gloves and a large (gallon size?) Zip-lock bag for disposal when finished directly in a landfill (EPA approved). Can be used without the toilet for backpacking. Check them out! We have been using the set up for river trips for a few years now...the fold-up toilet is sturdy and when packed is about the size of a large hard sided briefcase. It only weighs a couple of pounds ( is plastic) and if you pick a nice hill-side "perch" the morning "constitutional" can be down right... inspiring...now where is that darn newspaper......

Anarchist

LFL,

Depending on transport availability, you would be about an hour from the new Quantico (MCDEC) Marine Corps Museum, an hour from The Manassas battle fields (Bull Run) one and one half hours to the Fredricksburg/Chancellorsville battle sites, minutes from Andrews AF base or Bolling Naval Air Station... (if you have a "friend" you might get a tour out of it! Mount Vernon (George and Martha's home) is great...and not too far from greenbelt...but you will need transport.

Lots to do, and lots to see in the D.C. Metro area. Both Air and Space museums are terrific- White House is a big dissappointment for most folks....Best bet is to have your Scouts do their own research and decide what they would like to see...then "work" the logistics...

Anarchist

Had to check my book bin last night...

so far this year...

5 books on First Aid (while mentoring two new scouts becoming first aid trainers)

6 books on Canoeing, kayaking and white water rescue (same excuse as above)

5 history books...(two general text books-now have two sons in college)

5 classic novels (For Whom The Bell Tolls, Tale of Two Cities The Wild Palms, The Sound And The Fury and Heart of Darkness again guys in college- gotta know my stuff at the dinner table ).

3 books on saltwater fly fishing

4 books on fresh water fishing- helping teach SM to fish.

3 books on camping (all out of date/out of print -used book store debris...really interesting)

7 books on fishing humor/life view point (John Gierach)

3 fantasy (JRRT-trilogy) actually an annual re-read

1 historical novel (Gods and Generals)

1 historical account (Marathon by A Lloyd)

3 philosopical works by A Camus- (one in french just to see if I could still do it...yes but badly...)

6 cook books -cover to cover if that is reading?

1 science (?) book on mollusks and seashells found in N.C.

7 science fiction ( Stranger in a Strange Land, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The Past through Tomorrow, I Robot, Caves Of Steel, Time enough for Love and The Number Of The Beast

300 (over that actually) newspapers virtually cover to cover 'cept want ads....

no graphics or comics (cept newspaper funnies)

It helps to rent a beach house with no phone and no telly and very little night life...

Anarchist

Had a dog "show up" on a campout... once....

"nuff said"

Anarchist

yes, I know my shortest post ever!

Like most here, I think Camping only one night is a terrible waste of a good weekend!

(IMHO such a policy is usually instituted by lazy parents who do not want to drive a few hours and then have to work a few more hours setting camp in the dark...ok, so "they might be tired...after working all day"...do I hear the B.S. bell ringing?)

In the last ten years our troop has had two nighters, three, nighters, four nighters, and six nighters but NEVER a one nighter...unless you count an annual lock-in at a local county sports center (swimming pool, basketball, handball racquet ball, weights, treadmills and pizza/sodas and sweets..etc.

We have even had Scouters take time off and take their boys "into camp" a day or two earlier than the rest of the troop! Just for the fun of it...that, and you can "claim" the best group camp sites mid- week...sometimes.

Our Scouts have put up tents and dining flys in the dark; in the rain and dark; in 40mph winds and dark; In blowing sand and the dark and in the snow and the dark...sometimes as late a 10/11 P.M. when starting set up...they sleep really well after that. It also gives them an adventure tale... someting to tell their friends about Monday at school!

Then, at the very least, we have ALL day Saturday for fun and program (which is usually fun) and at least half day Sunday...after our services and breakfast for more fun. 'Course, for a few years, early on, we had a CC who sometimes led campouts and wanted to break camp at the crack of dawn Sunday...to get home....he's no longer leading trips...I mean man, what's so good about getting home early on Sunday? Most of us would stay in the woods for weeks if we could.

Gonzo1, you have a lot of very delicate work to do...retraining your webelos III troop. Start by using BSA program handouts and literature...A sorta, "ghee whiz, this is the way BSA says we should try things"...Try to get adults really (and currently) trained, so they will begin to appreciate the real "Game with a purpose".

Then try to slowly "insinuate" the policy that our troop leaders dearly love...which is; "IF A BOY CAN DO IT, ADULT's DON'T"....

Understanding, that we have a hard fought and won program that has been "building" for over fifty years, we still have to educate (mostly) our "newbies" (and not the other way around, you poor soul). At "car/truck campouts we even have an adult leader stand at the parking lot gently stopping "newbie" parents from carrying "juniors" truck load of gear...after all it's his- he should carry it...if it is "too much" for him to handle; next time he will bring less...

One final "arguement" is the "cracker barrel" Friday night. After the boys have "set camp" our youth leaders (SPL/ASPL/Troop Guides/QM etc) have a sit down with the SM/ASM and discuss the program for Saturday...making any last minute adjustments to the plans...during this time the other scouts usually share snacks, maybe some cocoa or lemonade and a few tall tales...then its lights out and the boys continue to goof off (somewhat more or less quietly) until sleep takes them or the cooks turn them out for breakfast duty....this is another important fubction that you "lose" to Saturday morning camps....

And again, the patrol can do this on their own...within the rules, with proper planning. It does not require the whole troop.

Get out there and camp

anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)