anarchist

Kahuna,

Peace and gentle tides....

But gosh, it is hard when one cranes ones neck to "see" a car wreck and then is upset by what one sees...

but drop in any time...you are welcome....(avoid issues and politics though)

Anarchist

Eamonn,

Don't beat yourself up. If Kahuna feels it is not worth the time it is a personal choice...we all step on toes (some of us more than others)and in return get our own toes tread upon...that's life. In the gaseous realms of "Issues and Politics", (an area I generally avoid -unless I am feeling frisky), everyone should not only understand but expect some "pepper on their eggs". As a moderator of a political discussion it is important to ride this beast with a very light hand -and not be a censor. After all, we are all pretending to be adults here (whether we are or not)...there is a saying about 'heat' and 'the kitchen'...

Short story; our last CC and SM (RGGs-really good guys)were both "yankees", and both "short fused" and agressive 'debators'. Their abrupt and rather brutal style of ...er...'discussion' on more than one occaision, freaked out many people on the committee and in the troop. Having gone nose to nose with both of them... on numerous topics and sharing many a fine elixirs of rice, grains and hops afterwards (or should it be afterwOrds?) I knew that their "way of debate" was not a form of attack but more like heated family arguements...(from their perspective they were passionately 'fighting' with friends not attacking enemies...

Was there a better way? no doubt about it, but I was not gonna be able to do any more than try to smooth the waters and ease the hurt feelings and then go have an elixir or three.

And finally, IMHO, scouting was never really "nicer" but "it" was more 'complacent' or perhaps 'inattentive' (even non-judgemental or neglectful and forgiving?) to what units were doing...but scouting has always been a pretty "nice" place to hang your hat for a spell.

go have a pint..on us..er, on Terry.

Anarchist

hello fellow scouter from the Commonwealth....

what was the point of the post?

General Info? Warning?

Plague is alive and well...in the U.S. (HAs been for-nearly-ever). There are usually a few cases (10-50?) in the south west U.S. each year (either bubonic, septicemic, or pneumonic). Usually associated with bites from "infected" fleas.

Also worry about Hanatavirus (sp?) also spread by rodents (usually vector is breathed dust containing dropping particles)...

Campers get "it" from being in close contact with camping cabins, platforms and "hard shelters" frequented or home to rodents...

Best, safest advice- don't sleep in "them" unless they are freshly cleaned (and cleaned well)! For trail hikers who "just have to" use them (shelters or platforms)... Actually pitch your floored tent in the shelter...failing that disturb as little dust as possible and put your ground cloth down before you lay down your sleeping gear-(here you are trying to put a barrier between your nose and 'floor dust').

Bet your thinking, Great!... another thing for moms to panic over....

Anarchist

Funscout,

Guess we are a bit different...we use the sign up and payment($$) for our tour permit information and trek numbers. We collect permission slips (copies are on the troop web site) at the rally site (place we gather and leave from...boys/parents bring 'em then or do not go (trek leader aways has a few extra for the "usual susspects").

A 'word' about using year long permission slips...we stopped doing it 'bout nine years ago..why? -insurance carriers can change...parental control (divorce) can make it void ...(and my favorite!)...older scout showed up for a trip (and went) but either he forgot or did not tell mom (or she forgot?) that he was going on a three day trek...(cells were still fairly rare then)....we had one P_-off mom by the time she figured out where "junior" was!

While the annual permission sounds (is?) nice ...food for thought!

Anarchist

bbng

Would love to see your picture...first comment-statistically speaking (without seeing the snake) -it's most likely some darker 'color phase' of a perfectly "harmless" (i.e. non poisonous)snake...(just more non poisonous snakes than poisonous)likely culprits have been already named but two of my favorite "mis-Identified" snakes are the Northern Brown water snake...(not always brown...has bpatterns and can be near black)particularly since it was near a pond, and the hog nose snake...in fact more poor brown water snakes have probably been killed as mis-identified "poisonous" snakes than any I can think of...not to say if you try to pick one up it won't really make you regret the decision...

Snakes are important to the ecology and really need to be left alone...give them a chance and they'll go away ('cept for a few bad attitude customers)...and you just look for a different route around them...As to the rattle...as said above- many snakes have learned to vibrate their tails to creat a rattle sound in the "ground litter" and leaves...then again just could have been a canebrake rattler (a sub species?) of eastern diamondback or a dark phase copperhead)

pic would help....

Anarchist

BelieveinScouts,

first if you haven't already do so... try to get Webelos leader outdoor training...if you're lucky, it will be some of the best BSA training you will ever get...virutally all of it is 100% usable!

Run through the webelos program helps...the activity pins can be almost always worked into outdoor (fun) activities...so do not rush to (either) go whole hog or toss them to the side...use them in outdoor settings to have fun and earn a pin...steady work will always be rewarded.

PLAN, PLAN, and then Plan some more...you want them to be successful and have fun and that mean you need to be prepared...Its hard to have fun when nothing is ready or working the way it should. Use all resources... local BSA troops, cub parents and friends...

Get the boys outdoors as much as possible, doing fun things 'with a purpose'. And remember they are cubs not boy scouts...don't push too hard...and never ever make a fun activity a chore...if it isn't building towards a smile it isn't working...The older they get the more you can expect of them but avoid making "work" out of it...look for the fun...

If they are familiar with Knots and ropes(its a webelos thing too) it will help. If they are comfortable in the woods...its good. If they know basic kitchen skills and team work they will do well. Compass is nice but it can overwhelm younger cubs...go slow...work on basics don't get too hung up on bearing and azimuths or UM lines there is time for that later.the

If you can work on cutting the ties to "mom/dad" doing it all "system" to "I can do some of it, myself", they will do well. If you can make learning scouting stuff fun they will do exceedingly well.

If in the two webelos years you build their expectations of the fun they can have in scouting you will have done a fine job.

take a deep breath, get out the helps, webelos manuals and scout handbook, work out a two year plan...do this over the next couple of months so you have time...go to round table and chat with Webelos leaders and scout troop leaders- they will give you lots of suggestions if you ask...I am betting they will also offer to assist here and there...

If you keep them interested the Webelos Years are the best years in cubs.

great luck

Anarchist

Whoa kittle,

whats wrong with just encouraging and watching?...Let them "teach temselves". First, have a short talk with the SM about the situation with his/her support - then shift it to the SPL (two older scouts?)....let them know that "business... or breakfast as usual" expands no boys horizon...have them start with easy meals...you can make suggestions or better still have them make a list (see below) of what they want...besides hot dogs (which is one of the three basic food groups along with Pizza and candy)

Pick up a bunch of outdoor cookbooks for them to 'read" and start practicing indoors...Have the boys make a list of their favorite home (Mom) cooked meals and work towards them learning how to cook those...They will cook better meals if they like what they are about to eat...teach them that camp meals (excluding religious or heath issues)are a compromise...what you get "this meal" may be different from what you "want" but your "turn" is coming!

Have your boys fry eggs and bacon at home for their families and bake store 'canned' biscuits, then maybe fry chicken...boil noodles and cook some fresh green beans -encourage him/them "do" dinner- a few times for the "family", while you stand back and "instruct".

"Teach" them to boil, bake and grill, from a bit of distance...work up from there ...Maybe even giving only written instructions and only speaking when he(they) is/are about to make a major whoooops...It will take more time but they learn faster...(contradiction?) And what they can cook at home (absolutley) can be cooked outside!

Invite the boys over to the 'fire pit' to practice cooking techniques...and prep techniques (cutting potatoes and onions, etc)...but you might want to consider starting out on troop gas stoves and/or charcoal fires...using grills or grids. Maybe spread the costs by having the patrol families over for "cook outs" that the boys "do it all"...(and they can, you know...with just a little help).

If you are doing anything more than foil meals...(unless you have a lot of hard wood and time) ...getting a uniform bed of coals is slow and hot work...Fire-cooking is usually an uneven cooking method and takes a lot of effort and 'intuition' or experience...though, it can be really fun to cook your eggs and bacon in a brown paper bag held on a stick over a 'low' fire...

Most boys expect to cook meals on stoves set at the "nuclear fire" setting on the dial...and thus, many burned meals and scorched pots...best advise to give them is to "set stoves" on lowest setting and work from there...

and constantly remind..low/medium heat!

It is surprising what boys can learn from books and the net...if motivated...and encouraged...give them direction, and the chance and be surprised! (I hope)

bon appetite

Anarchist

Kittle,

Is this a NSP or a 'blended' patrol? Where is his SPL????? They should be reviewing and approving newer scout's menus and encouraging the guides (?you have a guide?) to teach these guys...

Failing that an ASM should be offering gentle suggestions like...NO Cereal, no hamburgers, No Hot dogs....!

Sandwiches can be a good thing particularly to avoid burning day-light when there are program elements that need being done (translation: If the boys need to be learning or doing scout stuff on a schedule a long lunch {or breakfast for that matter} can blow the schedule)

The web is full of outdoor cooking ideas...so are scout manuals and trek guides....take you son to a large public library -many have copies of dutch oven cook books (saves you buying one for $20.00)or back packing cook books...BTW...simply grilling is an easy way to start with chicken...low heat, turn often, check meat temps....eat!

A favorite lunch for our river travelers is very simple to do..during breakfast prep/clean up the lunch crew mixes up tuna or chicken salad (need ice to keep mayo/tuna/chicken safe after mixing)and deposit in a large Zip lock on Ice...Then onions are diced, and lettuce is "sliced" very fine...again zip locked...Lunch time comes...cut a bunch of pocket pitas in half "load" pocket with salad, (onions as wanted), lettuce (diced tomato anyone?) add crackets or chips on the side and it is a great meal!...virtually nothing to clean up and a bit different...another "quickie" is sliced summer sausage and/or peperoni with sliced cheese (sized to "fit" crackers-ritz etc.) along with mustard, finely sliced onion, etc., on the side...again can be pre-preped and has little clean up.

Dinner is a cooking lesson just waiting to happen...older scouts and or ASMs should be watching and encouraging extra effort...get the patrol to buy a cheap cooking thermometer for meat and poultry...and keep it in their chuck box...(each boy chips in a buck or so) ...

Check out the web...Have your son put "camp cooking" or "outdoor cooking" or "Dutch oven cooking" into your web crawler and see what pops out...be prepared for hours of reading or printing (hint-get some cheap paper and set printer on black and white to save your color cartridge)

D.O. Apple dump cobbler is a great, easy and tasty treat.

If dad has a brinkman type water smoker ($30.00 at one of the "marts")... the boys can do great cooking on camps where they are able to spend lots of time in camp (mainly to do "fire watch"..the cooking is easy-put meat on and wait five/eight hours...but you don't light a charcoal 'fire' and abandon it...(Adults could watch while drinking coffee though)...Biscuits are nice in a D.O. for dinner also...and they can start with the "canned" biscuits from the store and 'grow' in to "make yer owns"

good luck

Anarchist

Kittle,

so many chickens so little time

D.O. Fried Chicken

D.O. Baked Chicken

D.O. BBQ Chicken

Whole chicken on a rope over a real fire with an aluminum foil cover.

smoked chicken (usually requires a drive in camp and dads $30.00 wet smoker.

Grilled chicken...need at least a bed of coals and an old grill or old fridge shelf...or a real grill.

Chicken pieces with rice or noodles

on and on and on...take your pick! ( and have lots of sanitizer and a bit of bleach or lysol for the work areas!)

Kittle,

so many chickens so little time

D.O. Fried Chicken

D.O. Baked Chicken

D.O. BBQ Chicken

Whole chicken on a rope over a real fire with an aluminum foil cover.

smoked chicken (usually requires a drive in camp and dads $30.00 wet smoker.

Grilled chicken...need at least a bed of coals and an old grill or old fridge shelf...or a real grill.

Chicken pieces with rice or noodles

on and on and on...take your pick! ( and have lots of sanitizer and a bit of bleach or lysol for the work areas!)

Gosh, Darn and dang! wouldn't making a "fowl" mouth scout actually apologize in front of the troop be hazing?

As with all un-pleasant behaviors...as scouters our "job" is to try to find a technique that works within our diverse groups..."one size" never fits all....

(but gosh, if it were possible... a "slap" upside the head would be really enlightening for some of these boys {and Adults}...from a politically incorrect point of view, of course...;>)

Anarchist

Gifts...a scout is thrifty...not to mention the packs and troops (mostly) don't have extra cash on hand...

We (speaking units here) limit gifts to LONG TERM troop/pack leaders. Cubmasters who are going on into Boy Scouting have been known to be really jazzed when presented with a BSA Red wool jac/shirt...(yeah, rediculously overpriced but for these kinda folks...)

We encourage the DEN PARENTS to do something (mug, engraved "wall hanger", framed Rockwell print,gift cert. at local outdoors store, etc.)...for long term Den Leaders. Committee folks (long term) usually get a certificate (we do the framing...usually in old barn wood) or plaques or Rockwell prints....

...and every so often when a parent is "caught" being really good we might spring for a special mug or a special T-Shirt (last year- T-shirts that had picture of Poison Ivy next to a roll of Toilet Paper and labeled "Foe - Friend" were really popular as parent "extra effort" gifts...)Parents (usually new scouters) who do the "summercamp" thing have been known to be awarded a Camp "T" or Mug...usually funded out of left over bus/camp funds...

And folks, remember, these folks also like to hear a kind word every now and then...during the the year(s), too! (Have you "hugged" your Scouter today?)

Anarchist

Ah, OGE...and there is the "rub"...hence the survey...'cause not all camps deliver!

Anarchist

Beav,

I've worked with this troop for over ten years (through four scoutmasters). I am a lowly committee member (cross trained for SM/ASM and committee member)and the QM mentor and equipment guy. Last two SMs said they'd quit if they lost me...nice to be loved...(but I am not the most "political guy in the world...would you believe it?)

We all believe in boy led but understand that an occaisional whisper in the ear is a necessary intrusion...from time to time. After all how can they learn if we do not teach????

Planning for four or five events of our calendar(sort of 'institutional' activities) is very easy -the boys like the hundred miler and the beach...and put it in the schedule each year...river or beach might change but the rest is almost by rote....

Each NSP has two Troop guides, who for "troop activities" are locked into their NSP for one whole year...however we do not have a formal venture patrol...rather the program has scheduled events that are open to older scouts only, (like cave crawling -BSA says 14 yrs old...)Guides are more than welcome on these events.

As far as "staying behind" the 'higher skill level' events are scheduled on different weekends from the NSP events and regular troop activities, a Guide might end up having to "go scouting" two weekends in a row or every other weekend to do both their guide job and the 'high adventure' stuff ...but it can be done... Additionally, we decided on the 2 Guides per NSP "system" to allow the guides to "take time off' for school or other scout obligations without leaving the NSP in the "lerch"...(our ASPL even acts as a third 'guide' should a 'real' scheduling problem occur)

White water canoeing (in the spirit of G2SS)is restricted to scouts 1st class and above who have completed our flat water and "lite white water" training...The "high adventure" program (the really fun stuff( is open to all scouts having attained BSA age requirements or skill requirements...whichever is the "controling factor" (in otherwords- Rock climbing/Rapelling is BSA restricted to 14 year olds...a highly "skilled" 13 year old has to wait a year-oh well, thats life)

For the most part our patrols stay together from joining to aging out...occaisionally some older patrols merge due to loss of scouts (moving on and/or the "fumes"). A few times we have had total (or nearly so) reorganizations when the boys get a 'wild hair"...but hey its their troop...

Hikes and bike hikes that are "multi-leveled" are not age or rank restricted ...on a 50 miler with "pull-outs" at 10 and 20 miles- ANY scout who wishes to stop at 10 or 20 miles can do so...if a tenderfoot can do the 50 miles- he is more than welcome...(and will problably "win" a pizza to eat in front of all the other scouts -furnished by the older scouts)at the next troop meeting.

don't cha love dis scouting stuff!

TRA

anarchist

As a reminder dear friends, when going on the water...

1. study the weather

2. check with local outfitters as to rivers "rise rates"

(USGS has charts on the internet you can look at to 'see' how the river historically behaves after or during a storm).

3. Have a plan to get off the river and wait it out...

4. PFDs always and training... to 'leave' your boat, hold an up-river gunnel (if it is safe) and float down feet first.

5.Avoid strainers-always.

6.Train to do rescues. have throw lines, ropes, pulleys, 'biners, and a minimum of 150 ft of rescue rope. Saws, knives, Medic/aid kits and lights are also important. Most of this gear should be in the sweeper boat.

7. Know the knots you need...have them down cold! no thought-just be able to tie it!

8. Buddy system for canoes... "no lone boaters"

9. There is no shame to scrubing a river trip if the situation is "going bad"...just make it a campout or a fishing trip...or even a dinner road trip.

10. Plan for the worst...

We can love the river but we must never trust the river...be cautious and careful.

and offer a prayer for those lost.

Anarchist

Beavah,

Troop swings between 58-65 scouts each year depending on the size of group aging out vs numbers of New Scouts. Varies between five and seven patrols.

Planning is not that difficult, we have the SPL do a formal written membership "program survey" in July on the bus trip home from summer camp to find out what the boys are looking forward too in the comming year. The PLC meets and does a rough plan in August and the SPL has several meetings with the SM to firm up the plan and merge the plan with the school calendar and known district events.

In Late August the plan is presented to the Troop Committee by the SPL for acceptance and the adults "rough-out" how we are going to support the program. The troop committee rarely make suggestions to change any part of the program...Program belongs to the boys, the committee supports and helps implement (we are well trained)

I see no major difficulty in planning...we have on average two activities/events per month, many of the activities are annual variations on the same theme (location may change... but a river trip is a river trip). The troop is over 53yrs old and has several traditional activites that almost plan themselves now.

The multi layer planning is simply a matter of consistantly asking the question "is every age group being served this month??? If the SM or ASM whispers this in the SPL and PLC ears enough...the thought becomes habitual. Not being a bunch of new scouts in a new troop we have the past (and a pretty good 'past' ten years if I do say so myself)as a working template. Our boys have seen the good and the bad and try to plan to avoid the bad...(doesn't work all the time but mostly...)

Bike Hike, for instance, Boys want to plan a 50 miler to finish their merit badge requirements...GREAT! now how do we serve boys who can't "do" 50????They make plans to "take younger scouts out" at 5 or 10 or even 15 miles..." not a lot of planning...but requires alot of parental support once planned.

Over the next two weekends we have three patrols doing patrol campouts...Two younger patrols are camping one beside a lake and the other on a farm with a large "run" (creek) ...with fishing as the main focus. The third patrol will be on a large impoundment (lake) learning flat water canoe basics. Three weeks from now we have a troop campout at the beach.

Beav...where do you see difficulty for the PLC?

Anarchist

SMT99,

Assumptions:

1.Since it sounds like it is "sign off time"...his 'PoR tenure' is done.(?)

2. Scout was told expectations (or better given copy) for his PoR.

3. Scout was counseled several times as to his "short-comings" during his tenure...and warned.

If so... the next sound you hear is a flush.....for this one...doesn't mean he can't try another PoR...just does not get credit this time...

Talk with your CO/COR and give them a "blow by blow".

If appropriate, send the scout a written review and outcome, even invite him to "stand" for a new POR (election or appointment) and copy COR.

Make sure COR will stand with you -if so, then tell the District Commish to shove it (if the CO/COR won't back you it's not worth the effort...)

Let him (DC) know your CO intends to bring up his (DS's) lack of discretion and non-profressional technique as well as a lack of confidence in his (DCs) value to the district with the Council Exec at the first opportunity...

In the end a boy either does or doesn't do his job...we owe the boy our best effort to help him succeed..but if he refuses to participate in your efforts, he deserves to fail... hopefully he will be stronger for it...if Mom doesn't muck up his life too much...you are the SM you do the sign off not the DC...

Sic Semper Tyranis

Anarchist

Short answer to lisabobs question on offering different stuff for the NSPs...

You simply have to offer them different things if you have a well rounded program. After all, you have to keep them busy and engaged while the older boys white water canoe, rock climb, or go caving...(all of which have skill and or age requirements)...Just as important if you "tone" down the program so the young scouts can do everything the older boys do...before long the older boys are bored...then gone!

So make sure that the PLC plans a varied and valuable program that allows for different interests and ages and skills. You then add to this by insisting that the patrol do events/activities "all their own" and "on their own"...

Not everyboy goes on every event, some by lack of interest, some by lack of skill, rank, or age. Many of our boys even as Life scouts have never been on a caving trip...(go figure) it doesn't interest them or makes them apprehensive...('course, these are not commercial caves...we do the private "crawl through keyholes on your back in 50 degree muddy water, rappel down and chimney crawl back up type caves where Moms burn the clothes afterwards rather than put them in their washer). Many of our young scouts simply can't wait til they get a chance to crawl in the mud...sometimes anticipation is really good!

Troop meetings are not necessarily "all the troop all the time" (Heck ours are mostly "Patrol Time") The troop almost never works as a "troop" unit towards upcoming events/activities...even troop events. 99% of the preparation is done as patrols; planning, classes, drills or skills training is done in small patrol groups...easier to teach, easier to control and easier to assess.

Teaching new scout patrol scouting skills takes longer and is much more "Adult leader intensive...even just monitoring). While we never work on merit badges in troop meetings the NSP frequently works on skills and activities that lead to rank "Sign Offs"...so why would you bore the older boys who are not involved in teaching?....There is plenty of time during the goof off period of "gathering" (before the meeting starts), openings and closings, troop business, anouncements and the troop games for troop unit bonding. And frankly it is (IMHO) far more important for the NSP to learn skills and BOND to their patrol...they will have plenty of time to bond as a troop member but the sooner they look at their patrol as "mates" or "buds" the sooner they start really having fun in scouting.

We start them with 'working' towards their own first campout before they even crossover. That shakedown is just for the NSP and instructors so they learn the ropes and are not embarrassed infront of older scouts at the first troop camp or District Camporee. We even arrange separate or multi-distance hikes and bike hikes for the younger scouts (not just the NSP)so they are not left in the older scouts dust... Many will go on the 5 or 10 milers but not on the 20 or 50 milers.

Car camping, hike-in camping, multiday hike-camping trips appeal to different scouts and different skill/age levels we try to offer a multi year well rounded program.

We offer "family oriented" weekend canoe trips on easy rivers, then some tougher trips on 'better' water and finally a 100+ miler on a great river(for 14 yr olds and up)...this allows everyone an opportunity to learn and grow with out being "scared out" of the event or the program.

As scouts feel "able", and as they attain rank/age- the high adventure activities "open up for them". It's sort of a natural progression...(IMO) If your program is not designed to offer all levels of challenge- you either loose the young or you loose the older boys...its better to design a multi-level program to keep all the boys interested.

try it you'll like it.

anarchist

campcrafter and others,

long post (forgive me or just go to the next thread)

Several thoughts here and I hope I don't hy-jack the thread...

The 'not old enough', 'not mature enough', 'not ready for winter camping'...generally boils down to not prepared. Heck, even a new girl scout can survive a camp in the winter with the right preparation.

First, assuming the troops involved JUST HAVE TO HAVE your Webelos in February (something I highly doubt...and bet with some work you could push that back next year to March early April), in the future much more work needs to be done at both ends of this trail. The cub packs need to be encouraged to "up" the level of their outdoor program. More camping and outdoor training should be encouraged paticularly by the Webelos and Webelos II groups.

WEBELOS LEADERS MUST TAKE OUTDOOR LEADER TRAINING and use it...I get very tired of hearing "well, she or he volunteered to be the Webelos leader but she doesn't camp"...(sound the buzzer) find someone else. Get the Boy scout troop involved! They can lend older scouts, equipment, and even some leaders from time to time(I'll bet) to help "lock" your Webelos into their troop...(ain't nothin like a good camp experience to rev up a bunch of boys!).

"Outdoors" means just that; "out of doors"...Encourage your webelos leaders to get the boys outside...meetings held in the woods are so much more fun...even if it is a local park or a patch of woods in someones back yard...and they learn "Poison Ivy" faster if they see it in the woods instead of looking at a book in the class room! Practical use of the material and activities makes it more fun and less repititious than sitting in a room listening to lectures.

On the otherside of this "trail" the troop should do as much as possible to see that the first camp (in fact the first year) is fun and successful. If this means not camping 'til the temps moderate thats OK...if the troop has a campout in the frostie north... the NSP stays home...and the next week does a day hike and skills training day...Use your ASMs and troop guides to give a program tailored to the New Scouts...meetings to learn camping basics, equipment check list games, meal planning, cooking lessons...on and on...If you have Feb. crossovers...just accommodate nature and try not to "dump" on the New Scouts initial experience.

There is a saying (somewhere) that you are either part of the problem or part of the solution and it is very true in this instance. When my oldest son crossed over many years ago (T. rex had just gone extinct), The Troop had a great, a super, an outstanding olderboy-outdoor program...ALL of the leaders were older boys Dads. There was litereally no real effort to program for younger scouts except for summercamp...If it was "high adventure"; younger scouts were left at home...If was intimidating to younger boys...they stayed at home...if the older boys didn't quite teach the younger ones...that "you needed back up clothes for a winter trip"...kids without "smart" parents got cold or had to be taken home early...

In fact out of two groups of new scouts(the year before my son crossed over), there was a 50% drop rate! Quite literally a whole patrol of new scouts and their leader (she was not "a camper" and her boys were "lost")dropped out of scouting! The troop leadership at that time were "sorry"... "but thats just the way it was...some sink some swim". BTW (just for info purposes), these guys were really great people ...they just didn't "get" soft city kids and their yuppie parents...

My oldest son and most of his buds were "survivors" having done lots of camping it was no big stretch for them -they had been prepared. But several of us "new scout parents" saw the need for change to a "kinder, gentler troop" (sorry)... and we did make changes...We joined the leadership, We participated, We took over program responciblities for younger scouts...we worked with the SPLs to show where New Scouts needed their own activities as well as troop events and over the course of several years re-directed some of the troops energies to a more user friendly -while still outdoors oriented, troop.

My particular area of involvement was New Scout recuitment and retention...after all I had a younger "less engaged" son coming along and I wanted him, and his buds to get all they could out of scouting (self interest is a good thing sometimes). I immediately started recruiting new scout dads (sorry, no ladies were active at that time)who were from my pack to help, then we enlisted a new scout dad whose son dragged him to the "rogue troop" 'cause it looked like "more fun". We used his connections with another pack (he had been Cubmaster) as well as his home location on the far "edge" of our service area to increase our "exposure" to other units...(packs).

We then developed troop info hand-outs, our program calendars, gear lists, basic camping information (camping 101), and troop aims into parent packages that we handed out "like dollar bills in an old Chicago election". We started doing "skills" demonstrations a few times each year at pack meetings, complete with large picture boards of our scouting doing fun things and lots of handouts, setting up demonstration camp sites a local church "fairs" and best of all we started offering camping weekends and training sessions to webelos units.

We corrodinated our program with three packs to allow crossovers to merge with our Boy Scouting program in an almost seemless manner...numbers and rentention climbed nicely and then it soared... WE doubled our size.

Interestingly enough, another local pack with a May cross-over attempted a couple of times to "send cubs our way"...These kids had never camped before (pack just didn't have an outdoor program)...but just as important the newer boys who had been in our troop since late March were so far "ahead" of the "late comers"- they just never quite fit in...They did not want to sign up for summer camp( or were too late to get a slot) and no matter how hard the NSP ASM worked- we simple could not integrate those boys into the troop. Try as we did, their pack would not change its program...for a March crossover...It had to be May! (also interestingly, the pack folded several years ago :>( !)

New Scout parents... you are in the best position to "see" the short commings of the boy scout program your son has joined...YOU can make a difference not only for your kids but for all the kids who follow your kids! But you have to be willing to roll up your sleeves and stop talking (complaining) and start working!

MAKE IT HAPPEN!

anarchist

Paintball, PAINTBALL? PAINT-BALL!

good gosh...I know there is an ethical problem or an unethical decision somewhere in here....let me keep reading.....LOL

power to the scouts! (and I HATE paintball!)

Anarchist

Hi All,

Most of this early/not ready seems to me to depend on the Webelos (and cub scout) experience/preparation that has gone on before crossover. We recruit from three packs...one pack camps three or four times annually and encourages boys to do webelos sumer camp. One pack camps once a year "or so" the third hardly ever camps...most of their Webelos have never camped before when they come to boys scouts...

We visist these packs, have skill training weekends for their webelos dens and have a side by side troop/webelos dens campout in the fall of the Webelos final cub year (webelosII). The troop actively participates in the woodsmoke weekend for webelos as well as a joint SFF effort with one pack...all trying to avois being 'strangers'. We have handed out a pile of flyers, instruction literature and troop guidelines and expectations on several of our visits so the parents know what is coming down the pike (at them). We also start selling summercamp to the boys and parents early in the fall the webelos II year...complete with signup/deposit dead-lines, cost estimates and equipment lists.

All three packs have middle March to late March crossovers...we co-ordinate these crossovers with joint meetings (even before they officially cross)and begin preparations for a NEW SCOUT PATROL TRAINING "SHAKEDOWN" campout in early April. This is usually followed by a District Camporee two to three weeks later.

Virginia weather is usually chilly to mild but most of these boys handle it well...Feb crossovers are a bit early March seems to work and by summer our guys have had four or five opportunities to camp...summercamp then becomes something to look forward towards not something to dread.

Personally, I think the March crossover time frame helps us get 90-95% of our new scouts locked in to summercamp and scouting and well on their way towards advancing in rank by summertime... and 'tunes them up' for a fall full of canoe adventures and geo caching!

my $0.02worth

Anarchist

briantshore,

Talk with the remaining Pack leaders if they want you (and they're probably nutz if they don't) and it is what you want to do GO FOR IT!

Example...My 19 year old (the Eagle) had a wonderful Den Leader...this guy lead "his" boys to AOL with most of the Den getting all activity pens...he is great with younger boys...he gave them extra weekends for extra work, and allowed them as much time as they needed to get tasks done...If they needed another weekend of his time to finish a project...he had their parents bring them to his workshop (garage) and the project got done! When my son's Den graduated this den leader had already joined the troop (his son was a year ahead of mine son) but "stan" did not find the same magic with older boys...after a few months he volunteered to take over a den that had a "drop-out" den leader.

He was back home! He just "fit better" with the younger boys... He was a far better Den leader than an ASM though he is a great outdoorsman! While he stayed with the troop while his son was a Boy Scout he was not as active as I would have liked...still more active than most parents...but he was knee deep in Cubs!

You might say that "Cubs is what he does" and I believe that is where he can do the most for scouting...believe me his boys are prepared for Boy Scouting...retention rate is nearly 100% and most climb to at least LIFE...In my book the troop owes about seven of its eagles to this mans strong foundation building!

quick math tells me he has been a den leader for about 14 years and is still helping out the cubs...troop "lost him" years ago...

Go where your heart and head lead you!

YIS

Anarchist

(This message has been edited by anarchist)

jmenand,

a truth:

BSA is not a democracy...even at the council level Its a franchise business...

Fear...of speaking up???...perhaps is just recognition of the futility of speaking out and understanding that the franchise can be "pulled" if you are 'counter-productive".

Basic rule of life;...if you play in someone elses house you play by the house rules...as a player you have no "standing" to ask for the rules to be changed...don't like the rules- don't play ...it's that easy...find another "game"

If you want to change the "house rules" you have to be a member of the house which means national not council BSA...good luck...though I understand the LDS church is doing just that interestingly enough.

I have many issues with BSA policy...but I think in balance the program is a winner...warts and all...I am not here to save the world...just try to make my "little bit of it" better...and I can do that ...even with the warts...

Anarchist

WAY TO GO OJ!

see, sometimes they do "get it". As others have said on many Eagle project postings...the project is not a troop project it is a leadership project...I am way more impressed (and I tend to be a worker bee at most of our Eagle projects) when the workers span the whole community rather than the troop and the scouts family...

I recall a two weekend project a couple of years ago were we figured over 10 different "organizations" were repesented...The lads troop, soccer team, library vols, church group, Lion, Ruritans, etc...it really shows the Scouts understanding of 'getting others involved' ...doesn't it?

Again, well done OJ! (and congrats Eamonn..the checks really don't hurt for this one) ;>)

Anarchist

moxieman,

FYI - H.A. (High Adventure- older scouts doing cool stuff)

YiS

anarchist