anarchist

NO! NO! NO!, Beavah...the correct answer is "OFF with their heads!" ;>) !

jlucas77,

gosh I hope you have deep pockets...or good welding skills!

a single boat trail will cost you @ $800-$2,000 depending on material and features. A quick look at some of my old research (I bought an eight boat trailer with gear carrier) shows there maybe another fly in the ointment...width of the trailer.

You mentioned 48 inches wide...the smallest I found was 53/54 inches wide. Most were 56-60 inches wide...almost none had a gear carrier box...

Not being an engineer I am not sure if it is a stablity issue or simply one of using industry standard high speed axles (highway rated). Most folks build trailers 48 inches (+/-) between the wheels (for stuff like plywood)...

check out the net-lots of offers,but you might have to build it yourself...good luck

anarchist

mikecummings157,

Antietam is a nice trip. Not as "flashy" as Gettysburg but well worth the trip. There is a group NPS primative campground you can use but it has to be booked (by mail I believe) well in advance...first come first served! It is on the edge of the battlefield and was almost as nice as McMillan Woods at Gettysburg...and just as hard to reserve!

Depending on when in the spring you go, you can frequently hear turkeys gobble in the early AM.

Good hiking trails and as was said above... have your boys brush up on the battle (of Shapesburg if you're a Yank and Antietam if you're a southerner)... We had our boys do a little research on civil war troops from their "home area" who fought there to make it a little more "real"...

And we suggested at least one meal to be "authentic" (in historic flavor)and we had lots of beans and bacon, some pork shoulders, one patrol did a leg of venison...

we saw lots of red eye gravy and buscuits, a few ears of corn, home made bread...it was pretty cool.

get crack'in...and have fun!

Anarchist

OGE

Thanks for the opportunity...

One of the recurring themes of my brothers in the "a Scout is active in the troop" cadre is that the scout hardly shows Scout spirit if he does not take part in "Outdoors Adventures"...(third and fourth line of star/life/eagle section). Which is (or should be at any rate) also one of the easier elements of scout spirit to evaluate...so how do we square that with the "eagle" who is missing in "in-action" for two or three years?

Anarchist

Knot Head

Some people love to sleep in Hammocks and the military style nylon with netting and a tarp cover can be great...

But like everything else- it depends...Can you hang it up? Several National Parks (and State Parks too) no longer allow ropes to be attached to trees...We had a ranger approach us in a snow storm (even) to say our cooking tarp had to be taken down because we tied it to the trees...(sorry, having left our "air anchors" at home we had found a need to use the trees....)

Then of course there is the "odd happenings" phenonena...for instance : on our annual 100 mile river canoe trip a group of older scouts had used the same copse of trees to hang their hammocks -on an same island for years. These trees were the only "real trees" on the island...

Unfortunately, one year, several camping slobs had used the island before us and the copse of trees was used (unwisely and poorly) as the latrine...It was (needless to say) un-inhabitable...guys had to sleep on pebbles and rocks having left their pads and bedrolls at home...

so just know the rules and be ready for unfortunate circumstances...

Anarchist

robvio,

not knowing where about in Kentucky you call home its hard to do an hour/miles estimate but I can tell you that the Blue Ridge Mountains Scout Reservation near Roanoke Virgina in Pulaski county is worth the bus ride. We drive by our own council reservation to get there and this year encouraged the boys to try a new camp next year...but at the end of the week we had 100% of our camper wanting to go back to blue ridge next year they have so many different offerings it is incredible.

They also pull it off each year with pazzazz! This year we had boys doing Brownsea, camp powhattan, the new river adventure camp, mountain man camp and Claytor lake water activities camp...food our boys think the Claytor lake camp has the best food of any scout camp in the country! Check out the web site... good hunting

anarchist

sending a scout home...

We have done it once in fifteen years...the scout was a problem child with self control issues. Added to which, his parents were going through a nasty divorce (and he play each of them like fiddles). He did not want to go to camp but Mom and Dad thought it would be "good for him". He stole money...and was caught, he "borrowed", and broke another scout's fishing rod then attempted to slide in into the tent unnoticed and when the SPL called a green bars meeting about the problem the boy threatened to hang himself...complete with putting a rope around his own neck...he then pulled his pocket knife out and threatened to cut up anyone who approached him.

The adults, when made aware of the last two items called his dad who could not be reached and called his mom who would not make the three hour drive to camp and pick up her angel.

I happened to arrive in camp (mid week) and volunteered to drive the scout home...once his escape from camp was assured the little thug was all sugar and spice...after all he had gotten his way...his mom did the "poor little angel" routine when I (and my wife) delivered him to his doorstep...and I delivered a note that said the little thug was still welcome at meetings and activities as long as a parent was with him 24/7...never saw him again.

Lisabob...I would not send a scout home for ditching merit badge classes or nearly anything else...in fact if a scout wanted to sit in his tent for the full week and we had enough adults to maintain two deep...he could stay in his tent 24/7...it's not my money or time going down the tubes. But a scouts threat (or personal action)to harm himself or others is a 100% free ride home.

But you know in the same 15 years I can think of very few behavior issues that could not be caulked up to just being kids and personal exuberance or disability issues we already were clued in to expect...

Excepting that one boy we have been blessed with leaders who could talk with boys over issues and help boys get with the program...case in point:

Our adult Leader this year at summer camp was an ASM who years ago (many years) was the troop scoutmaster while his first son was working towards Eagle...the guys a state policeman (rather hardnose outdoors type) who loves camping. As we were getting ready for summer camp several parents of new crossovers began complaining about a boy in the NSP who has behavior issues.

It seemed he had made life rather difficult for his patrolmates for the past few months (seems his parents could keep it down to a dull roar while they were all together in cub scouts but in the boy scouts the little guy was just being a pain in the patute). Five new scouts from one patrol signed up for camp. Many of the NSP parents wanted "the boy" left at home for summer camp...as their boys would not enjoy it with the trouble maker along. The ASM talked them down and then had a heart to heart with the boy and his parents...

Surprisingly it was not a "you will be good or else", but rather "we are going to have a great time and the more you work with your patrol the more fun you will have!" kind of talk. The ASM talked the boys "up" so high they hit camp like a group of marines taking a beachhead. They had top honors for orderly camp, uniform inspections and other camp competitions.

When asked, these boys were the first to accomplish any task and as one of the NSP dads said last night at the first meeting back since summer camp " they went down as "one boy plus a patrol" and came back a working unit...pretty neat stuff!

anarchist

calm down folks...its getting too heated for such a lofty question.

Eagle projects can be great fun...they can also be great pains in the butts! Personally, I like them and used to supply the bulk of the tools and heavy equiptment needed by our scouts. So lets look at the problems...

"Group one", here seems to want dump the requirement all together. ( a person could say "why not, we have watered down the eagle program so much that it is just too hard for the boys)

"Group two", seems to think its all the twits (adults always are the problem) doing their "adult run" scouting thing that are the major flys in the soup.

"Group three" seems to think the system needs a little more clarity and national guidance and some minor tweeking...

"Group four" might be catagorized as feeling the boys can do it themselves keep the adults out....

I have to admit our troop and district are heavy into planning and leadership demonstrations. Our troop has an ASM who is our "life to eagle coordinator". He is an Eagle as are his two sons, his brother and his brother's son. Our District Eagle advancement team are also mostly Eagles.

Our District has several Life to Eagle training sessions for boys at roundtables each year. The boys are given a CD with the Eagle project workbook, Eagle application, examples and suggestions for tackling the project.

When a boy decides he truely wants to become and Eagle he has several meetings with the SM and the Troop Eagle Coordinator to map out a strategy and a time line for the steps and final requirements he has to meet inorder to finish his path towards Eagle.

Generally speaking, the SM and Eagle coordinator attempt to direct the scout towards doing something for which he has a true passion...

Example- recently one of our scouts did a project for his high school band program. It was in the school band he found his most pleasure as a teenager...his enthusiasm for his project was infectous.

He explored his possibilities with the band director and the band boosters and worked up a plan of action. With the assistance of the Eagle coordinator and the band boosters he was able to get the school to agree to the project and he then did a detailed planning write up (including a power point presentation for the school principal) and got approval of the troop committee and the school. The plan was ten pages with tools list, materials list, budget, drawings, pictures and "construction" details. The power point presentation was eight pages. The troop committee through the CC offered the scout some suggestions and after these items were incorporated he set his meeting with the district eagle project coordinator. The detailed plan made his meeting with the district rep very easy and a pleasure for the scout and the district Eagle coordinator...all the hard work was done. The actual work took two days and was very successful. The boy figured his planing time over about three months was 60-80 hours. Project work took care of another 100 or so people hours.

That said, I recall another project that was proposed for a local church. After agreeing to the project the church committee decided they wanted the plans (in this case for a small outdoor stage/teaching center) drafted by a licensed engineer and they wanted hand rails and electric lights and plugs at the stage(requireing trenching from the church to the site in the woods).

The scout agreed to this change and decided to "run" with these things without troop level input and because he was in a hurry he allowed the trencher to be operated by a minor (a friend), accidentally cut the underground electric line to the chruch septic pumping sysytem and in general screwed up the troops relationship with the church...and cost the troop money for an electrician to make repairs and a landscaper to restore the grass...So is it hard to understand troops and districts wanting to dot the "i's" and cross the "T's"?

Then, of course, there was the Eagle project of building three prefab picnic tables...just bolting the things together ( the family bought them) and setting them around the site...planning fifteen minutes -maybe, leadership...directing six scouts with wrenches for a couple of hours...sort of anemic don't you think?

Personally, I think the Eagle project should cause the scout a little bit of "stretching", It should not be something undertaken lightly and should be a demonstration of an ability for planning, commitment and leadership.

And finally, I would submit that if a 14 y.o. scout can not "rise to the occaision" and produce a suitable effort for an eagle project, perhaps he needs to wait a bit to grow and mature. Otherwise heck, lets just get the scouts registration money, say, for six years, give them a bag full of rank patches and go back to our hobbies...

would save time and lots of effort...and pain

and old friend of mine sings a little ditty, wish I could remember the words...but it is basically ...

"BSA is becoming GSA, hooray, hooray!

watered down ranks and petite point, oh the dolly days!"

he has a couple of verses but you get the point....

anarchist

ManyHats,

Not knowing where you are I hesitate to mention this but you might want to check the local health department...In our neck of the woods we have an annual "town day" and we used to sell water, sodas and popcorn (both packages and freshly popped). For years and years we generally set on on one end of the main street and another group selling popcorn set up at the other end. We made more profit on water and fresh popped popcorn than sodas!

A few years ago the Health department started sending sanitation inspectors around and closed down a bunch of stands for not having potable water and soap to keep the utensils "clean"....we were lucky as we had access to a commercial kitchen -should we drop our popcorn scoop...(what a joke!). The next year the county was asking for sales tax from vendors...and now we do other things... red tape and health department just took the fun (and profit) out of "food production. BTW selling cans and bottles and popcorn packages did not require health department permit or "inspections -just "cooking up fresh popcorn was the culprit) but the sales tax hassle was just too much.

good luck

bluestationwagon

Munson is what you or your crew make of it (as long as weather cooperates). And having a good mate (councelor) goes a long way also...like having one demonstrating "shark fishing" with his bare hands....

You have a day of "Deep Sea fishing", paddling the mangroves, snorkling day light and night time ops and if you luck out and are their during lobster "season" your crew can snorkle for lobsters and really suppliment your meals!

We do both keys and Munson depending on what the boys want and only one year did I hear conplaints. We sent two crews (back to back) to Munson one year...one crew had a blast -did everything; competed and "won" at every they did ( first crew to reach the island, camp site decoration, friendly pranks with other crews, fishing, lobster catching etc) and one crew was always "too tired" to do this or didn't "want" to snorkle at night or was just going to chill...guess which one complained?

Both of my sons did munson and the keys and loved both for different reasons...(youngest thought it was cool (at munson) not to be able to "wash up" really well for nearly a week! and getting to wash dishes in "dirty" sea water-go figure)

Of course the first thing they "bragged to mom about (to her lasting embarrassment) was starting nearly last in the paddle for the island and getting out in front of the whole fleet, (but especially in front troop that had treated them with a "bit of distain" at sea base camp)...turning all boats sideways and the whole crew "mooning" their "adversaries" (I know not a very "scout like" thing to do but it seemed to set the tone for a grand week...at least according to the SM (I was not there) but they won the scout spirit award...and nearly everything else that year....food wise they had too much to eat! Camp food and mahi mahi, lobster, smaller fish and snook...

If your crews heads are screwed on right they will have fun!

Drink lots of fluid if it is hot...dehydration really sneeks up on some boys!

Anarchist

Hint,

not familar with the requirements...even "out chere" in the sticks most of our boys never get aound to Farm Mechanics, but...

what are you near in NCAC... are you in VA or Maryland?

As a "virginney boy" I could recommend a couple of machinery shops in Leesburg or Warrenton or Manassas...they'd propably help or he can come down to my place and putz on my 50hp new Holland....'bout an hour or so "south" of the NCAC HQ.(non rush hour drive time) let me know if I can help...

anarchist

IMHO

You can Never can have too many adults...if you utilize them correctly. Except for our annual family beach camp, we generally figure out how many boys are signed up for an outing and how many adults are available for transport. In as much as many of our camps are literally hours away our adults generally camp in their own area and stay out of the program side of the weekend unless they are part of the program...if we have 30 boys we might have between 5 and 7 drivers...45 boys might mean 7 to 11 drivers depending on types of vehicles available. (we have lots of suburbans, mini vans, excursions and four door pick-ups to choose from)

I teach canoe skills to scouts from time to time and First Aid, advanced cooking skills and fishing/ fly fishing but if I am only transport I take advantage of the down time for personal relaxation...I have been known to drop the guys off at a cave with the program leaders and go fishing or simply set up my fly tying station and tie flys all weekend until they need my truck to carry folks home.

Sometimes we might have a group of NSP parents going along who the SM is afraid will do too much "hovering" and a couple of older parents might find themselves detailed to hog tie and teach the new parents all about the patrol method and the BSA program...We actually play a game much like the "Troop Committee Challenge" where the new scout parents play the part of scout patrol members...set up menus, duty rosters, advancement goals, learn knots, lashings, knife and saw use, how to build fires, the whole nine yards... We have been known to totally engage new dads so they don't know what happened to the weekend.

Even on back-packing trips the transport drivers have been known to drop the guys off at the trail-head then drive to the take out and camp for the weekend, both to save fuel and to have a good "kids free" time.

Occaisionally, the CC has BoRs for scouts in the field ...because it just works out to be needed...You have parents who are committee members and when a scout needs a BoR and has some down time from patrol or troop activities it seems perfect. (We had one young man who only had two indoor BoRs during his scout career-his tenderfoot and his Eagle...the rest were "in the woods" and it is a perfect non-imposing use of adults.

A lot of this is training parents and CC/SM diplomacy. They have to start indoctrinating parents that Scouting is for the boys...Adults are support services not participants. And sometimes you have a problem parent and you just do your best (and hope for a grizzly attack...sorry, just a joke ;>)

Anarchist

OGE,

I love ya man,...but standing up to her was not a viable option...she simply made the troop miserable...she would not listen to anyone! She had three sons in the troop, the SM and Committe did not want the controversy to effect her other two sons, both she and her husband were ASMs (in fact he had a heart attack at summer camp one year before coming to our troop and was viewed as a very special guy)! Both parents were quite active, having come from another local troop due to "differences" with the SM (evidently he was another of those "twits" we love to denounce). These folks had gobs of BSA training, were merit badge councelors for about twenty M.B.s and they liked to support activities. She had also single handedly run a cub pack for 12 years...and it was hoped that she would become a strong asset for the troop.

But most important, outside of refusing to renew their registrations there was little to be done. She would not be reasonable, even a slight remonstration for not coming through with his part of a program became a small minded or jealous attack on her wonderful son. She had plans for #1 son and no one was going to smear his resume... she even backed up his outright lies ...the committee wanted no more turmoil.

The SM (a really good guy, eagle scout, etc.,) did not want to give up on the boy and he had a hard time admitting he could not "reach" this young man. As part of her end game, she withdrew both of the younger boys from scouting when her number one blew his eagle...as he aged out.

In the end the boy was too busy, too involved in other more important things (including his "company"), wanted the SPL POC and Eagle on his resume and figured he could sweet talk his way through...some times it is more than we mortals can handle, try as one might.

anarchist

Wow,

I can't help but recalling the old saw..."you can lead a horse to water...." And once again this forum thread is full of "it's the adult's fault" if the scout fails to do his job.

Having never been a SM (and not feeling I could ever do the job well) perhaps I am missing something. I have seen many good and a few not so good SMs in my years of serving our troop. One of the best SMs I ever had the pleasure to work with had several excellent experiences with SPLs but he had one boy (who by all appearances was Mr. Super Scout). Our SM just could not find the "right button to push". The young man gave all appearances as the perfect All-American youth...involved in everything, excelled in most, excellent politician, started his own landscape service great grades, class president, and he lied through his teeth whenever anything went south. His mother was a typical mother bear and lept to his defense when ever anyone tried to say sonny boy was anything less than perfect.

No matter what the SM worked on with the boy if something "more important" came up scouts got shorted. No notice Un-attended meetings, planning never carried though, weekend events almost called because he had not do what he said he would do. If this boy did had not had a good ASPL whose father was a stickler for being sure his son acted as a perfect "wingman" the troop would have been a basket case.

The Scoutmaster tried and tried, I watched the whole painful process...replacing the boy was out of the question...the Committee did not want to take on Momma bear(an ASM) and the SM did not want to admit defeat...so it was the adults fault I guess...this boy stood for election and then bailed whenever anything more important to his resume came up (did I mention this was his senior year)...

He dwaddled over his Eagle project, too. He bent and broke several BSA eagle project safety "rules" about youths using heavy power equipment because it was more convenient for him; in the process causing some serious problems for the troop with the church... which was also our CO,(one of which cost some serious cash). In the end he waited until the last possible working weekend and the weather washed his work plans out...so he never actually did his project...in which case, I guess it's Gods fault? And I guess to some here even this was still an adults fault???!!!

Sometimes folks, it is the boys problem...not the adults...sometimes it is a committee or a CO's issue with seeming too harsh that allows failure to continue and sometimes, yes, it is the SMs fault...but not always!

anarchist

gosh,

First, Can we hear everyone say "Forida and Michigan were right!"

The great Democratic Party, home of "let every vote count!", refuses to allow States to choose primary dates which would make their votes important to the candidate selection process. Choosing instead to protect a very non-democratic caucus event and a pretty non-representative new england state's monopoly on being "first"...

Then because they (democratic demi-gods) don't like a real horse race ...all the grand pooh-bahs in the party blather on and on about how Hilary should pull out even before West Va., N.C., Kentucky and Others got their chance to be heard...(bet they are wishing for the old cigar smoke filled back rooms right about now). Their lack of wanting to hear from all their voters is almost "Putin-esque".

The blatantly undemocratic strangle hold the Democratic central committee (like good comrades all, I'm sure)exercises on when states can and can not hold primary elections is obscene. At the very least, those states "going first" should be rotated each presidential election cycle to allow each state a shot at beinging relevant.

And by the way, lest we forget (or gloss over it), Obama (he who's wife is only now (and once) proud of her country)had his name removed from the Michigan ballot because he wanted to remain the darling of the liberal left...really showed guts and backbone, now didn't he? Only the democrats could find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this election cycle!

gosh, I love to watch political suicide...

Anarchist

WildernessStudent,

Another legal matter being asked of non lawyers...

since this is a liability question a medical/malpracice attorney would be the best place to start...And find out where the Peach State comes down on the subject...GET IT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH! And then you have to understand that if you are treking in Virginia the law there prevails so you need to be prepared...unless we have a Ga lawyer on board here -most forum legal opinions are worth less than a grain of salt...Get the legal reading from someone who knows the law...not a forum.

Epipens are great things and all leaders should know how to use them to assist an epipen owner who has lost the ablity to help themselves. Epipen owners should provide those leaders (in writing) all necesary instructions and permission to administer in the event they can not do it for themselves.

That said, in a small number of cases epipens can also kill someone with an undiagosed heart problem or hyper-tension can cause problems with diabetics and some folks are even allergic to the medicine itself.

In a serious anaphylactic reaction you might need to re dose in 15-20 minutes...and if you don't have another epipen- benedryl and other antihistamines are usually not recommended after an epinephrine dose. So you are only "buying" 15 minutes...if you are in the boonies is that enough? If someone has a heart attack after a dose...due to undiagnosed heart problems...you haven't bought any time at all, have you?

'course you could ask everyone to see an allergist before joining in the fun...couldn't you?...if the question is that important.

In the end risk has to be managed...it can not be eliminated. Your oc club members need to determine for themselves what risks they will take...not the "leaders". If you decide to carry epinephrine be sure you know how to use it, check it often, (expiration date and cloudy contents, etc., -epinephrine/pens themselves do not hold up well if stored in high heat or cold environments...)

If this is really eating you up -I might suggest each trek member visit their doctor and request a prescription for an epipen... if the doctor will not cooperate with the request then you have no responciblity...I am just guessing here, but I'll bet a lot of Docs will refer members to allergists (or shrinks! ;>) )

anarchist

btps,

you might want to check with Local VFW, American Legion, Moose lodges, Elks, Lions as well as the local chamber of Commerce...These groups frequently have large Halls and most are quite supportive of scouting...That could get you a place to meet.

Then you can try local business leaders to see if you can get help with supplies, copying, even snacks...

Local pizza places might cut you a deal on pizzas that you sell for some profit to the starving Scouters...etc...

good lick

Anarchist

Knot Head,

depending on the area you live in there are usually several places to extract "labor only" staves. Old farmsteads, working farms, country roads, timbered (clear-cut) wood lots, contruction sites. A few calls and maybe a visit to introduce yourselves is usually all it takes.

some farmers have old fence lines being damaged by saplings that they just have not had time to "get to" and would welcome a troop cutting forty or fifty trees down, some road ways five to ten years after being built have lots of two, three even four inch trees that the land owner would love for someone to clean out...some farms have ponds/small lakes with dam embankments that are being over-grown by trees that eventually have to be removed (trees undermine the dam structure)- and its all free for a troop Saturday and some light work.

a little bit of a drive around should show you local possiblities. If you have a place under cover a rack can be built to store the staves up off the ground and out of the elements, in which case the pioneering "kit" will last for years.

Rope to use is hemp that has some tar worked into it...check old fashion hardware stores and again, if taken care of properly will last for years. You can splice rings and grommets and cut and mark 10 ft, 15 ft, 20 ft, 25 ft hanks (using different colored whipping string for each length makes identifcation of the rope you need a cinch!)

good luck its one of my favorite scout skills!

anarchist

Lisabob,

I too, like small units (patrols and troops for that matter)if they are committed. Hows this for an Idea...multiple High adventure patrols! If your patrols generally stick together from NSP on it is very possible that as members of a patrol hit 13 or 14...nearly all of them will soon be "there" in the same scout year.

I can see nothing wrong with several small patrols of older boys planning extra activities that interest them. You might find one goup want lots of water time...kayak/canoe trips, white water rafting, fishing, etc. While another group wants long distance hiking or caving or all of it...nothing says one group of scouts can't head for the boundary waters while another heads to a trail head for a fifty miler or to a mountian bike trail...is there? Sounds too cool to me!

Our last Scoutmaster started a patrol centric plan that required each patrol to plan several "patrol only" activities each year...even the NSP. The "troop planning calendar" even made room for these weekends. The boys decide upon, plan and execute these events (under the gentle guidance and nagging of the SM and or their assigned ASMs), and they are all about "what the patrol is interested in doing" not what the troop or even the PLC wants to do.

Some activities have included small boat/powerboat skills, sailing (we have our own 16 ft day sailer), kayaking, rafting, shotgun shooting, caving, rapelling, white water canoe training, canoe weekends, bike hikes and AT treks all the way "down" to pizza parties, ballgame trips, museum 'hikes' and bird watching.

If your 13 year olds can find age/skill appropriate activities they want to do...let them do it in their regular patrols! You don't need to have a 23 person venture patrol activity. We have been known to put two separate groups of 6 to eight scouts on a 100 mile canoe trip that our older boys love to do each year with the appropriate adult support but except for the put in and take out they never see each other....the "paddlers" blow down river and the "fishers" poke along...both groups have their own tales to tell and both have different (but equally) fun times!

try it it might work for you!

anarchist

Kahits,

Sorry in advance for the long post but something about this thread gets under my skin!

Gosh sometimes you can't do anything right...a troop hosts a couple of camporees and the boys in that troop take it seriously and end up winning and somehow they are percieved to be dishonest or the fix is in (in someway). Is what I am getting from this post?

First in my experience most troops do not "jump" at hosting a camporee...Our District offers three camporees every year (Fall, Winter, and Spring)and the extra work and planning turns most units off. Usually the district starts begging and arm twisting trying to get some poor unit to raise its hand. Our troop has run two camporees in the last few years , both, after the original volunteer troop ended up backing out for some reason or the other...(at least that was the districts story and they were sticking to it)! In both of these we followed district norms and "drafted or shanghied" other units to provide the bulk of the station operators and graders...

We planned, set up the stations and ran our share of stations but other units also did their part...(In our district we give points for providing station helpers). District decides (and supplies) what prizes to award and the troop-patrol participation rules as well as grading criteria.

And interestingly enough, both camporees were "won" by patrols from our troop. The fact is that we have several groups of highly competitive, skillful,(anal retentive?) boys who take pride in blowing away the competion...in whatever event in which they participate. Be it capture the flag, fire building, first aid, lashing, map and compass work, cooking...whatever they strive to win. Patrols from our troop "win" about half of the camporees we attend that have graded competions...is that our scouts fault?

WE find that if the camporee is well planned and executed and the subject/theme is interesting units will attend. Heck our PLC has been known to nix attendance based on what unit or leader is running the show...some units put so little effort into the event that everything seems to be operated by the seat of the pants or blind luck. At one event four years ago we rolled into the campground 5 minutes before the operator was to "close down and lock the gates" it seems that the organizer had not booked the campsite...if we had not gotten there early they would have closed and the camporee would have been cancelled...(organizer showed up an hour later) At the cracker barrel it was determined that no troops had been asked to help and the SPLs were dragooned into appointing patrols that night to run the stations!

Some years we miss a couple of camporees because district (unable to get its act together) waited too long to get schedules of camporees out and the boys had planned their own activities for the particular weekend. Last year we missed Spring Camporee cause we had won the lottery for McMillan Woods at Gettysburg for the same weekend...no contest! The better District planning is the better camporees work.

For some reason, (the PLC maybe?) competitions seem to motivate the boys to take the pre-camporee information and boil it down to weekly practice sessions and training drills. When our boys hit the ground, they really want to do their best...last year our NSP blew everyone out of the water with its camp-site gateway..even our older patrols! They just wanted to win and came up with a supper design and even embellished it in the making.

And Kahits, I hope you are not suggesting a unit "throw" a competition or even not take part because they do the hard work??? As to the unit of sore sports (than went elsewhere cause they didn't win...) If that was the real reason...if they are that fragile- that's their problem and its sad that they never learned to lose -that too is part of life.

As to the ablity to rebuild your OA chapter...In your position, I would hardly want to go camping (which I believe is one of the "offered" criteria for being elected to OA) with a boy so immature or so petty that losing to another troop in a district camporee would keep him from being active...(please give me a break!) We have boys from different high schools who will tear each others heads off on friday night on the high school football fields who are in the same patrol... let alone being arrowmen!

Your ability to forge a strong chapter will rest on the ability to enlist good scouts to whom OA means more than paying dues and getting to wear another sash...which sadly is what OA means to many "arrowmen" these days.

I would think if other units have issues with winning or losing, then your Scoutmasters need to bump up their scoutmaster minutes on fairness, hard work, sportsmanship and building character!

sorry if this seems too blunt!

Anarchist

light weight gear can cost much more than basic camping gear (truck camping or even canoe camping). Some new troop have difficulty with raising funds and rather than buy two or three backpacking stoves per patrol at $60 for each stove (or higher), find themselves buying a coleman (or other) propane two burner for $25-$35. Other backpacking gear tents and flys all tend to be pricier than heavier gear also (dining flys, cook sets, lanterns, tents...). If funds are an issue, Your troop should determine where it wants to be several years out and do some long range planning...if dollars are flowing do what you feel is best from the start!

It needs to be said, again, that backpacking/hign adventure activities can be done on a budget...you just have to thing hard, plan hard and be willing to "make do"....

depending on what kind of program your guys want the Venture patrol my or may not contitute a long term group...in our troop the high adventure patrol does three or four of its own activities annually, usually outside of the troop schedule. They also participate in most troop events and serve as the SPL's first line of skill instructors.

On many of their activities the SPL, ASPL, Troop Guides and older scouts from other patrols are invited to participate. this gives the "troop POC leaders" a chance to be part of some activities with their "buds" and as long as BSA age limits are not a factor give some of the slighlty younger scouts a taste of being an older scout doing even cooler stuff.

on your question about how long down stream you should be reasonably able to do such an undertaking...it will depend on your number of dedicated older scouts (five is plenty enough BTW)and the quality of your adult mentorship...the "right" people is always a better indicator

than a time line. If you end up with a group of "serve it to us on a silver platter" type boys, you will never make it truly work. If your current group puts there noses to the grind stone you could be opperating in less than a year...

good luck!

keep us informed how it goes...

Anarchist

firemedic...

first sorry you don't like the XTs. We have 21 -XT 2s and 6- XT 4s ...have had most of them for five to eight years of heavy troop activities...we love them. First thing we did when we got them and every fall since has been to seal all seams with seam sealer.

As to your "problem"...If the ground cloth is tucked under...just how does water get between the ground cloth and the cover? It should not be able to..unless the tent site is in a depression that allows water to run under the tent or some section of the g.c. was not really tucked all the way under...Or the boys left the vestibule slightly open and the water hit the g.c there...or the fly was not drum tight and water found a way into/onto the main tent body.

On a practical level, most of the water problems I have seen (over the last twenty years) even with moderate "quality" tents is usually (frankly) "user error"...seams not sealed, tents not pitched with flys "drum tight" so water from the fly hits the tent "tub" bottom and rolls under the tent (and on top of the ground cloth- by the way) or the rain makes its way to the zippers (not closed completly or not closed at all (in some cases) and water then enters the tent and looks for all the world like it came "up" from the g.c.

Nylon floors with urethane coatings will leak if water has been trapped between the nylon fabric and a water proof (plastic/vinyl)ground cloth and has the pressure of several boys on top of it...usually the floor seams leak first...usually the water is forced through the stitch holes before it leaks through the floor fabric... but the more gear that gets dragged across the coating the sooner it will leak...

Personally, there are two things you might want to try...the First, is to use a water permeable g.c. (say a sheet of non waterproof canvas) rather than a sheet of plastic...If the tents are in good shape, and the primary purpose of the ground cloth is to protect the floor from rocks and sticks and small trees that the boys should have policed up to begin with this will allow water to percolate through the ground cloth...thus no water in tent...(unless the boys didn't pitch it correctly or in a good spot or left the windows/doors unzipped).

Of course then you have to deal with heavy/damp g.c.s and that host of problems

The second, and far away my favorite, is to cut and place your G.C.s inside the tent...the impermeable plastic (we use 6mil builders cloth cut 10-14 inches longer and 10-14 inches wider than the floor) will only let water through if the boys poke a hole in it and it seems to reinforce the nylon floor enough that minor rocks and sticks do not "punch through" and tear your tent floors...

If you do this and boys get wet...it ain't the tent floor leaking...

Quick story...we were out a few years ago with a group of fairly new scouts...middle of the night, raining cats and dogs, temp had dropped 20 degrees and I hear voices and a flash light beams my tent...three half dressed (no shoes/shirts) scouts whining their tent was leaking and their sleeping bags/clothes were soaked...well, I got up dragged SPL and PLs out of their sacks...sent everyone to the trailer (thankfully this was a truck camp) for a new tent and some emergency wool blankets and went for a "look-see"...These scouts had 1. put their tent in the best place in the whole camp- if you wanted to sleep in a stream during the rain (a swale), 2. half of the G.C. was sticking out of the side of the tent, and 3. best of all (the XT's have two doors), the rear door was totally unzipped so that one of the sleeping bags had "migrated" ten/twelve inches out of the tent and was in the "stream" acting like a big canvas wick!

the point being; it was not the tent leaking...

last thought for now...condensation..three or four boys can exhale a quart of water over night which can form on the underside of the fly and drip back in the tent and look like water coming from the "floor" so make sure the guys leave both windows open at the top a bit to keep air flowing and reduce condensation...

(just a follow up question...do you let the boys take their packs into the tents?)

Anarchist

thebigguy,

some confusion...venture patrol or simply a powerful troop program..just what are you looking for?

The goal of "self-planning" should be done by all patrols (as much as possible). Even for troop events -the troop sets a general program and patrols should tailor the opportunity to their needs as much as possible/practical.

Our "high adventure patrol" is usually the oldest boys in the troop (for the most part our patrols stay together from crossover to age out)...sometimes boys are pulled into the High Adventure patrol if their patrol decides to split to other patrols but that is fairly rare.

The High adventure patrol schedules and plans several activities each year in addition to the general troop and independent patrol programs. Usually, they are strongly encouraged not to conflict with the troop calendar. This allows them to have the SPL/ASPL join in the fun, as well as some troop guides and some of the older scouts from "younger" patrols.

In practice, it works great some years...falls flat some years and just struggles and crawls along other years depending on that years particular group of High adventure scouts willingness to work as well as the High adventure ASM/SM's willingness to stay on top of them...("a body at rest tends to stay at rest" quoting some guy named Newton).

Our venture patrol does "real down in the mud" caving- one or two trips per year, an annual 100 mile canoe trek, one or two 4-6 day hikes (usually the AT), boundary waters adventures, Allagash (Maine) canoe trips, some years Sea Base or Philmont plus most of the troop activities and District camporees...

However, bigguy, most of these adventure patrol programs are limited to first class and fourteen Y.O. scouts...if it was open to the whole troop...it would not be high adventure...and the younger boys would have nothing which to look forward as their skill and maturity levels grew...(waiting can be a good thing)

If you want everyone in the troop to be a part of the "action", many adventures would need to be dropped or toned down...Then they are not really high adventure...just "the same old same old"...at a different location... Your "Adventure" patrol should be encouraged to reach high, do cool, challenging things and come back to the next meeting and "wow" the younger scouts with stories of the awesome stuff they just did...which, by the way, locks in the older boys (they feel important) and locks in younger boys -they just can't wait until they are 14 and can rappel 60 feet down a wall into a cave, crawl through an 18 inch keyhole or crawl on their back in 12 inch stream of 55 degree water, "shinny" up a 20 foot chimney to a cavern only fifty cavers get to see annually...thats cool...and worth working for!

my two cents...

Anarchist

Lisabob,

as the old joke about the economist goes...."well on one hand...and then, on the other hand...."

It really depends on the troop, the finances and the boy's own drive. For years our high adventure activities were catch as catch can...tents (eureka timberline XTs) were divided between two boys (main tent body to one scout, poles fly and stakes to the other) or they used light weight dining flys and bug nets were used instead of tents. Seasons and activities were selected to allow for use of minimal sleeping gear (say a blanket or thin sheet and a pad)as well as minimal extra clothes. Meals were spartan, generally one pot or cold/no fire meals...sometimes MREs and military chemical "heaters".

Some boys soon bought their own bivy tents or ultra light tents...Over the years cooking was done over wood fires, then homemade stoves, then peak or coleman single burners...then a few dads started lending white gas high tech camping stoves and eventually the troop started purchasing its own high adventure equipment...but it was several years of "making do" before we had most of what we wanted.

There was also alot of budgeting, increased fund raising efforts and a whole lot of "lobbying" the PLC and the troop committee. Some folks have to be seriously motivated to "give up" another three or four weekends and/or evenings to raise more money as well as raising annual troop dues significantly to buy gear their kids might not use....

If your boys do fund raising in the name of the troop or simply as boy scouts...I am betting most posters here would say the equipment would belong to the troop....If on the other hand (see ;>) the boys did chores for neighbors so they could buy their own gear "out-side of scouting", then it would belong to the boys individually...The test for me would be whether the scouts "played up" being scouts when asking for work/chores or just told "good ol' Mr. Wilson" they were painting his fence for extra money to buy stuff they wanted.

I have always liked the system where the high adventure boys sell the new equipment idea to the PLC and the PLC (if they "buy into" the high adventure plan)integrate the goals and fund raising into the troop program. Just like when the boys say they want to go to the boundary waters...our committee asks how much it will cost and how they plan to raise the money...if the boys are still "game" then so are we...but they have to be willing to work for their goals...Our troop does not just write a check 'cause the older guys want to go to Sea Base....

but remember, like Bob said starting the "program" does not have to be all about $$$$$. It can be done on the cheap fairly easily.

luck!

Anarchist

good luck

MarkS,

wow, And I thought our last SM and CC were fraud helpers (enablers)...

I have a hard time seeing how a boy could complete his tenderfoot or second class requirements with two campouts a year...let alone first class. A couple of years ago we lost several very good (active) scouts who felt the "feel good" advancement policy then favored by the "two biggies" was unfair to scouts who did their work... Example: on the exit interview for my own (youngest) son ...(we try to talk dis-affected scouts into continuing or at least letting us know how we failed to keep their interest) the CC was embarrased to hear him say..."why should I continue to do the work, give up weekends with my other friends, short change other interests because I am expected to do the work, make the effort and you let _______ earn the same rank and he never came to meetings when he was the PL, doesn't know a single knot and hates to camp?"

Several of the committee members simply stopped doing BoRs because we refused to accept the "advancement lies" the SM was willing to tell (and the CC was willing to accept) in order to keep the boys advancing...This included giving a life rank to a scout who had not participated in any outdoor program for a full year.

It was only a very real program crisis...(boys stopped attending activities and meetings in large numbers because "being active" was seen as paying dues and having a pulse...) that activity drop eventually made the SM see what he (and the CC) had done to the program. SM decided to step down as soon as new blood could be found for his position and the CC is soon to follow...but the damage was done and now we are in a correction and retraining period.

Like this country has discovered in the feild of public education..feel good advancement, in the end, does not really help anyone...even the ones allowed to skate by. It also cheapens the program and undermines what we are really trying to do.

A coming "Train wreck" is the right discription but it needs to happen...neither the SPL nor the SM has a right to reduce the requirements for advancement...for any reason...even disablities. (And those adjustments in advancement requirements are the duties of higher pay grades than the SM/CC and no one in the troop has the right to alter the advancement requirements because "a mom will not let her boy go camping").

This might be considered too blunt or brutal but whatever anyone says, what has been done for that boys "benefit" was wrong and has degraded or cheapened the efforts of every boy who has worked for his rightful advancement...and these boys do understand fairness...sometimes all too well.

BoRs do not test or retest...but they are to ascertain that the scout has met the advancement requirements...what part of that is difficult for us to understand...(or SMs and CCs to understand)

2 cents worth

Anarchist