anarchist

short hikes, fishing derbys (next spring), rocket launches (estes make nearly idiot proof kits (i even built one), bike rodeos, bike hikes -we have one that is near twenty miles mostly down hill (very slight elevation grade...had kids (sibs)finish on training wheels...)beach combing day adventure, spring birding hike, summer mud bash around some pond looking for tad poles etc. You can also do this in the snow with animal tracks!Out door cooking class with intro to dutch oven cooking (donuts from biscuit tubes is great fun!) How about knot pole races (horizonal pole -chest high with basic knot examples and an extra 'race rope' next to each knot...individual or dens hurry to copy each knot lots of fun)'webs' can do the same with fire building....very carefully watched.

And of course graduate level classes in brewing a great cup of camp coffee to show your leaders they are almost as special as you are!

good funning!

Nutz it is! and my Kids and most of all an abiding desire to pay back the debt owed to the guys who led me up the eagle trail...though they couldn't find a way to make me drink...they tried to do... their best!

nuff said.

GO for it! so long as it is good taste..why not?But let the pros do it...

We 1. found a friend to Donate a good used trailer then 2. found a good guy to professionally letter the sides...

all for "free"...or 'for the good of scouting'...

and yes both benefactors are acknowledged in small print on the bottom edge of the trailer...nothing but complements from everyone who has seen it! Good luck...keep the tire pressure up, spare and jack handy and keep the wheel bearings greased!

great thread! less vitriol being tossed about...

Mallway, Training, particularly the Webelos leader outdoor training (WLOT was the best i have had!) will help you keep your head above water. And the bs you were probably shoveled about only one hour a week...they lied...

But if you jump in and use the life lines these folks are tossing... you will make it! Get others in the pack involved in training and know what? a few extra weekend to finish activities will be worth it four or five years from now when several of your scouts start running their own troop as Patrol leaders and SPL's! It is so cool to see the ground work in outdoors skills YOU help lay-down grow into full blown active Boys Scouts and outdoorsmen!

good luck it'll be quite a ride!

anarchist

I have a question and a problem with many of the examples tossed out...it appears to me that most of these are 'double dipping' for credit...

I mean...if I have to work for a goal...confirmation, say, why on earth should i get 'credit' twice? OA hours the same, the hours worked are for OA membership not service to the community...even though that is/or maybe the result...

Ushering at church seems to me to be a duty to my church for my church 'membership'and part of my particiaption in worship...but cleaning the church or church grounds for the general good would be more in line with 'service' hours.

just seems to me, that service hours should be for above and beyond type tasks...to generate more volunteerism not just claiming credit twice!

can someone explain this one to me.

Hey folks!!!!

pushing matches???

wacking people???

throwing things???

verbally belligerent towards leaders????

This one needs a committee-parent conference to see how or if this boy can/should stay in the troop, not advance towards eagle!

If any 'contact' is meant to be hurtful, advancement should be the least of this boys mom's worries.

S.M. should lay down the law to this one and fast!

and no, you are not going to 'change' the boy ove

Interesting thread....I'm for separation...

, and this is mostly to SR540Beaver, by separating brothers, in school you were given the opportunity (gift?)to do 'it' as an individual without a brother to be held-up as an example (either good or bad) or as a competitor. You were placed in a situation that 'forced' you to grow at least for a little while each day on your own without whatever influence your brother would have had upon you.

Even when you two came back together (later in school) you had by then, grown and experienced situations that, left to your own devise, would have been..."different" with brother along for the "trip".

Having two scouts 14 months 'apart' in age and of vastly different talents and skills and personalities, I would not want either in the same partol...its tough enough having them in the PLC together(SM's doing not mine). They can be themselves and learn with and from others in their own age group and abilities... and little bear does not learn to lean on his older brother to get him out of trouble...he leans on his patrol!

final note:

our troop also have new 'twin' scouts, complete with their own behavioral and physical set of challenges. We separated them into different New Scout Patrols against "mom's" wishes (but we did compromised on tenting together)...guess when we have the most problems with these boys????

anarchist

GOOD GRIEF!

We spend a great deal of time messing with P C -'cover our butts rules' instead for fostering fun and friendship...BSA and it's leaders have become afraid of their own shadows. They have seemingly forgotten that a little silliness is good the soul.

Some of this fear (read PC regulations)is directly the result of the attempt to include 'special' kids. Boys, that perhaps in the good old days would not of been able to have the scouting experience are now accommodated. Sometimes its just accommodating spoiled kids with powerful parents....

As a parent of an "special" child (ADHD-COD among the list)....I say this ....

Perhaps one day our troop will run into a boy who says "no" to singing...but somehow, I think the troop will handle it with out caving into a sterile sit on our hands 'ban the song' solution or as my 'special' son has said... "take all the fun out of scouting"... And I hope the parents out there with special kids see that there just maybe more ways to handle this kind of experience than the way our/your special child wants...(you know?... now that I think about it... my son is not always right or reasonable...is yours?)

The spirt of the thing and the inclusion and yes the silly fun is WAY more important than momentary embarrassment...But perhaps the boys in our troop are all extremely exceptional... though somehow I doubt it...I think we as adults (leaders, BSA and society) are just afraid and lack imagination...

and calling it abusive is just wrong fotoscout,

final thought,

B.W. fotoscout and others... I love you for what you do to help boys grow...and teach us neanderthals the rules...but wrap your minds around this...

Let's stop asking boys to recite the promise or the law or outdoor code...earn merit badges, learn to swim handle cope courses earn rank and learn to cook and camp out at night...in the dark... goodness! ....we wouldn't want someone to feel out of sorts now would we...

guess it depends on who's ox is being gored in any particular question, doesn't it. good grief!

just toss'n out a few fire bombs

must have too much time on my hands

Anarchist

Trailers are great...if you need one!

If you are a back packing only troop with LNT as your program, a small shed or closet should do...

But camping is not just about LNT... it should be a life time orientation to the outdoors with all the possibilities, 'cause down the road few 'family men" will be able to take the family on a fifty mile LNT trek... but if they love camping in all its forms they might be able to pass a version of it on..even to their girls (sorry not PC)....or er non-scouting boys.

If on the other hand you have base-camp oriented camporees to attend and like to travel long distances with dutch ovens and other 'experience enhancing' gear for weekend camps it can be the right step.

make sure you have a private home/lot to store it away from vandals etc. Do not Leave it in the lot of your CO unless it is fenced, lighted and patrolled well!

Not sure I agree with double axles...

Big ones have a problem with who hauls it...ie. big truck and skill. Smaller ones generally mean more potental haulers and if you get into a tight place you can unhook the smaller ones and move them by hand for short distances...some times needed due to operator error.

Two doorways can be a problem cause you have to be carful how you plan to "pack" and the door is wasted wall space if you are not careful with your planning...

Insurance -talk to your insurance carrier for the troop umbrella policy (you have one, right?)You may elect to "self insure" contents....

The thing acts as a good storage shed, too! for some events you might just roll up and off load what you need into cars or pick-ups.

QM makes sure nothing is put back wet...in fact at our campouts the wet tents go home with the scouts in the cars and trucks... to be dryed at home by the scouts who used them, before being returned at the next meeting (and then "checked-in" by the QM)

Tires- used trailers almost always have bent axles

so you will eat up a set of tires every few years.

Logos ask around some sign companies will cut you a good deal for stick on vinyl signage...one did for us with BSA logo troop number and town of our CO...both sides of the trailer...for free....with a little note at lower right of trailer side says "lettering by _____" It doesn't hurt to ask for 'help'.

Give several parents trailering lessons... worth the time and is fun! Cause, if you don't have 'haulers'... all you do have is a nice shed

on wheels.

last hint get some thick padding and secur it to the inside lip of the trailer doorway...unless the trailer is REALLY TALL or you and your scouts are all REALLY SHORT you will learn why I make this suggestion the first time you unload...(and many times there after).

I did like the 'requirement' for each family to have a monster truck to haul the trailer and color corrodinated paint to match the trailer...have to bring that up at the next committee meeting.

good luck!

anarchist

Give me a brake! Another sign that the P.C.'s have won...

Singing is fun (REMEMBER THAT WORD? USED TO BE WHAT SCOUTING WAS) and yes... some, (those who have to be PC for the organizations sake) might say hazing...

We have a similar 'tradition' and the troop has NEVER...never had something 'not' be claimed...

The reason...maybe found in the Scout Law...specifically loyal, helpful, friendly and maybe even kind...though thats a stretch for kids (right?) If one of our boys appears 'embarassed' by singing for his gear...WITHOUT FAIL some (if not all)of his partrol or even the older scouts will step up beside him and lead him through the song...it is a good thing! It builds patrols, teams, crews and troops...

For gosh sakes, these are boys who pass gas and think it is a high form of humor...AND THEY DO IT just for the fun(REMEMBER THAT WORD?of it!

A song is not hazing ....and 'embarrassment' (the PC kind)is way over rated!

Hi Scouter Joe,

Thought I'd offer up a couple of annual activities that are our "troop must do's". Not knowing where you 'hail' from, you might find a similar area near you...

The first started about six years ago and gleans about 75-85% attendance every year. It is a three day Beach Camp. We trek to Assateague Island on Marylands eastern shore and camp in the sand, right next to the ocean.. (where the National Park Service and State of Maryland allow it). We plan the trek for a period when the water is too cold to swim and make it a fishing and hiking (looking for the wild ponies - (relatives of "Misty of Chincoteague"), sand football, cooking and beach combing...parents come out of the woodwork to "help" out on this one.

The best however, is for the Older Scouts and we have been doing this for 12 or 15 years. Every June we do a seven/eight day 100-110 mile canoe-camping trip on the James River in Central Virginia. This is for our 14 years and older scouts who have participated in our two and three day river trips and the training. They also must have earned first class or higher rank. This is a real 'right of passage' for the boys and most can not wait to be 'on the list'.

When these scouts come home from their first James River Trip (and most repeat as many times as they can)they have changed...it is as simple and strange as that...they have 'done' the river and they are more sure of themselves ...a bit more 'manly' to put a non-PC tag on it.

So, Scouter Joe, find a beach and find a good long river and go for it!

Finally, and I don't want to rain on this parade but be sure to have several (if not all) leaders certified for CPR, Safety Afloat, and Safe Swim a couple of BSA Life Guards isn't a bad idea either...

good scouting!

anarchist

"if we are camping...its raining!"

As the chief cook and bottle washer for the adult kitchen (and slowing steping back as I train the newer dads), we feel camp and kitchen "washing" is important for every one. All of the Summer camps we vist have hot and cold water at the latrines and before mess call we have a troop trek to the 'wash station'...no wash... no eat!

Most if not nearly all of our troop campouts are "waterless" even the drive/truck-in sites.

We set up a wash station as well as a 'flag pole' at each location. On "drive-ins" we carry two gallons of water per scout for cleaning, cooking and drinking. (seems to work). The wash station is a wine bladder from a cheap box of wine or a similar bladder purchased online. ( I prefer the former method)...

Bladder is filled, 'spout' replaced and a tripod is lashed together...the bladder is placed in two or three 'nested' plastic grocery bags (form of recycling) with the spout side down and suspended from the tripod and the spout is pulled through a small tear in the bottoms of the plastic bags...bladders w/spout allow good use of water, less waste and the soap (prefer liquid pump)is hung by a cord for all to use.

Scouts returning from the latrine are 'encouraged' to wash. Before cooking it is simply a required part of meal preparation and cooks make a big show of hand cleaning to avoid a SPL visit. Each patrol 'kichen' has waterless hand sanitizer for 'in between' hand cleaning and bleach, lysol or boiling water is used for after meal clean-up. SPL then requires all patrols to make a station call before "sitting table"... neat, clean and someone gets a camp craft/gadget sign off at each camp!

On hike-ins the bladder weighs nothing, and a half capful of bleach brings down the 'bug' count in stream, lake or hand pump water and the soap does the rest (we tried bolling water but getting the boys to keep their hands 'in' for the full three minutes proved difficult)...and for the LNTers we do not cut down trees we gently lash the bladder to a tree or branch....or older slow moving ASM...

hope this helps any newbies looking for non-contoversial forum info!

CW,

First your conflict with the C.M. depending on your troop size and structure you need to figure out the troop chain of command. Is the adult structure corporate or community? By that I mean is the group so small (or close) that all adults are program leaders who by what ever means to make it work (community type structure) or is the program corporate with set duties and responsiblities?

Keeping in mind that this may not be truely the BSA way... Under a corporate structure the adults divide into "program" and committee (troop support). Program is the S.M. and his ASMs(you)

the committee obviously is the Committee Chair and the C.M.s.

Program runs the campout and activities with the committees support. But policy is the committee's job not the S.M.s. In fact (and coldly put)S.M. and ASMs have no actual vote in the "business" of the troop they make suggestions, offer plans and program,but in the end they run the program approved by the committee. So in a way, in the corporate structure with you as a ASM... the CM is representing your "boss", the committee and the charter organization by way of the C.C.... This is a long winded way of saying look long and hard before you do anything "less than intelligent".

That said the CM was probably wrong in speaking to the mother unless he had a good relationship with the family and did so as a 'friend'.

He should have gone through the S.M. for immediate action (this was after all a program activity) and was the S.M.'s responsiblity if more action was called for. Then if he felt that the S.M. did not handle the issue well, he should have worked through the committee. The C.C. would then follow the 'will' of the committee if more action was felt necessary. Group dynamics is a wonderful and tricky business...go slow and feel you way through...understand that as you mature...(the farther you are from your teen years) the more you will appreciate that you don't have the answers to everything and and hopefully you will gain the ablility to see two (or more) sides to each conflict.

The coffee and a walk suggestion is good but take it further...after the troop is put to bed make it a habit to do a "sneak attack" on the old _ _ _ _ _(fill in the blanks) around the campfire. ASK them how things work in the land of adult scouting? How the committee works? How the program side works vs the committee? How both work together?

Ask in a non challenging- "I want to learn" sort of way. Ask them how they handle internal conflicts and what they see each of their jobs is. The answers may surprise you and by seeking you may even start to find some answers.

Good luck and remember most of the old guys really mean well even if they don't do it very well.

Y.I.S.

anarchist

FIRST...Remember... boy led...not adult led.

Ours is and established troop with some real problems right now (see forums...issues...'troop growing too fast'), but we have(on going)a great outdoor program which helps.

WE START by giving the boys a survey to fill out while they are at Summer camp (usually on the trip home or as they are waiting for camp check-out...we have 90+% attendance).The survey asks activity by activity which the boy liked which he did not like, as well as asking them to "rank" the activies first to last. Then they are asked to add items from a host of possible activities we have heard about, seen on other troops web pages, or things they might just be interested for the heck of it (in many cases, fun things they have been exposed to at summer camp). We ask each scout to list his interests and hobbies. The adults also offer up a list of activities for the survey which they think the boys might like to choose from as well as offering 'skill' classes to check interest levels (map and compass, fishing, hunting, auto mechanics, see merit badge list for ideas)

This information belongs to the incoming SPL and his PLC and with assistance from the out going SPL and his PLC the information is plotted out activity by activity. The PLC then meets in August and with the Scout Master, hammer out a planned program for the next year using the input from each scout, suggestions from the patrols, and the 'feelings' thePLC as a planning organization generates. THIS PLAN IS WHAT THE BOYS WANT TO DO (within reason)... not what the S.M. wants them to do.

The S.M. works at these meetings with the SPL and PLC using our BSA District Activities Calendar and the local school calendar to set up the entire Scouting year (We use a September-August calendar)in a monthly calendar format for the entire year.

This nearly finished product is presented by the SPL to the Troop Committee in our August Planning Meeting.

THE TROOP COMMITTEE IS WELL TRAINED...our job is to help the boys implement their plan not to rewrite or redesign the plan. We look for scheduling or operational problems and let the SPL and SM address those (if we find any) and we then turn to finding ways to make it happen... and with training (all around encouragment, and making timely low keyed suggestions it can be done...

This is not to say everything works or changes don't happen with the schedule during the year...Conflicts with a changed school or District activity my cause a 'week-end' shift in our program but it rarely causes a "mission scrub". A troop trip to say "China" or even the National Jamboree might not make it to the plan when the boys decide they don't want to work hard enough to raise the necessary funds...but that is usually handled by the PLC and scout master corps long before they come to the committee.

If you have a new program, or a history of less than stellar out-door activities or perhaps a troop that has temporarily "lost its way" you might want to check out what others are doing and suggest a few things...but help the boy 'find' the program they want. Do not tell them what they are doing and do not 'give' them a finished calendar and then ask them to participate.

Lead them to the sources and let them see what the possibilities are they can do it...BUT make sure they DO IT OUTDOORS!

anarchist

Mr. D,

yep most would rather just write a check....(but with time taken by soccer, wrestling, cross country and school sometimes I feel that way myself) ....

and young-un, I didn't wear no red beret neither...in the dark ages we wore overseas hats which were good for absolutely nothing but they tucked into your belt real nice...so you didn't walk off and leave then like todays ball caps....(least I didn't wear a campaign hat...not that old!)

first....Mr. Daigler....Tom Watt salesman....cardboard suitcase full of pocket sewing kits, reusable ice cubes, pocket first aid kits, travel size double edge razors, and other cheap 'easy to sell' items...right?

I am a commercial property manager...shopping centers, office buildings, industrial centers...but did my share of fund raising in the dark ages....

Well folks, thanks for the guidance. I am not the SM (can't deal with local politics) just a committee member..the troop equipment guy, cook mentor and trailer transporter. My two sons are in the PLC (ASPL and troop guide) and are worried about the changes almost as much as I am.

I don't know what we will end up doing. But I hate telling boys they can't join our troop almost as much as I would hate to see boys drop out because the program is not working anymore.

As adults (the committee), we are at the 'edge' in our ablity to provide 'warm bodies' to support the program activities the boys schedule. Our meeting place is over 'capacity', and recent operational changes in the church have created several "challenges" further reducing the usable size of the meeting room. Talk of looking for a new CO created a storm!

While we have a great group of adults, we do not have a "second team" willing to work out a troop split...(most or all would want to stay in the original troop). And this does not to even start considering the raising of funds to duplicate troop equipment resources (trailer, canoes, etc.)if we allow growth to continue 'til a 'split' is the only answer. And I guess that's the issue...several of us want to save what is 'here and working', not continue to grow until there is either no choice but to split or no program left.

Wish us well!

anarchist

just passing through from another forum...want out there names...

try.... dynamic disco dancing donkeys and the invisible indeigo flying squirrels...(13-14 year old scouts)...very strange boys...including one of my sons...

We have a good problem thats a bad problem.

In a small country town, we have "ambled" along for over 50 years. The natural 'feeder' for the troop was the local elementary school's Cub Pack. Unfortunately, the Cub Scout pack had weakened over the years to the point where it was not graduating enough Webelos to keep our numbers up.

Fearing for our own troop stability and program health we began a little 'outside recruiting'. A few boys from packs a little "farther away" joined the troop and sent 'good words' back to their packs. We then accepted an invite from two of these large packs to visit and share our program with their boys. We started webelos training "get togethers" and over the last two or three years we have expanded this outreach to another pack.

I neglected to mention that our outdoor program is very, very good and seems to appeal to many young scouts. Instead of our expectation that we would "pick-up" three or four boys from each pack or perhaps a whole den, we have found we have "cleaned" out the Webelos 2 dens from these packs...Last year it was almost thirty new scouts. This nearly doubled our troop in one year! Let me tell you, finding good troop guides for 3 or 4 new scout patrols took a toll on the number of boys available for the troop's elected leadership slots...We are a boy led troop and many of our best leaders were asked, and stepped up to take the most important job in the troop as Troop Guides.

With the impact of this influx of new scouts and new parents, many of the troop committee members (and the SM and ASM's) feel that the program has suffered somewhat, or if not actually suffered, that we seem to be standing on the edge of the cliff...

We do not like this feeling and we do not want to loose what we all have worked so hard to achieve. Some of our new parents tell us to expect another 20 or 30 new scouts next March....ARRRGGGGHH!

HOW DO WE LIMIT THE NUMBER OF SCOUTS COMING INTO THE TROOP WITHOUT COMING OFF AS BAD GUYS/GIRLS?SCOUTS???? ANY help would be appreciated!

Whoa there!

except for an Eagle board who requires 3 committee members????? BOR's in many cases are one (1) committee member and two 'concerned Parents'...

the C C is a member of the troop committee simply approved/appointed by the charter organization to be the CC. He or She fills out the same BSA paperwork the rest of us BOR sitting c.m.'s do...

the only folks who can't sit boards are parents of the Scout standing the BOR and those program side chaps and lassies called SM AND ASM's.....

Our troop has gone to Rodney and Camp Hansen (hanson?) the last two summers, we have taken @ 30-35 scouts the last two summers, and at both camps had great times. Our boys wanted to go back (to either) but they could not accomodate our group on our planned week. I doubt if you can go wrong selecting either of these camps....We have never heard our boys "planning" a trip back to a camp 'next summer' before they had left the camp (this summer)! By the way both camps are opperated by the same council...great job gals and guys of Del Mar Va! Anyone have experience with Camp Bonner in North Carolina...we are thinking of going there...?

ahh the uniform debate, its been a while since I checked things out...seems more and more folks are agreeing with us that the current 'garb' is close to garbage. I agree that the BDU is tops, and perhaps if Texas really wanted to they could tighten up the cut somewhat to make the appearance somewhat sharper. But in the end, my uniform argument is: we are an OUTDOOR 'uniformed' movement, not a bunch of 'dress soldiers'. The basic uniform should be field wear first, dress wear second... {OUT is 3/5ths of scout}

I just dropped $77.00 for a uniform for my oldest scout's life to eagle conference (shirt he needed, bsa pants he didn't but was required...) the bdu's we use on camping events are just soooooo much better; quality, utility, fit (now and next year too. I think we should do a mass email to BSA and keep it up until they cry uncle...or BDU....

Cooking for Vegetarians...neat oportunity! Great teaching tool for the patrol and the troop. (by the way folks boy led does not mean they can't get a suggestion or two from the adults, say through the PLC). First like all diet issues you need to define the type of veggie diet that is appropriate...eggs? fish? milk? cheese? a couple of times in the past we have had new scouts say they were vegetarians and later hear from parents that that was not the case...boys just did't want to eat what was being offered...so get the facts!

Then offer the patrol help...perhaps the parents (of the new scouts)could come to patrol time to discuss what they usually serve, here the new scout parents can also make suggestions as to what they serve when they have 'carnivores' over as guests.

Then check out the net. I have found at least two references for veg. cooking in the wild... and remember that anything you can cook inside can be done outside!

Limited cooking equipment? Aluminum foil, tin can pots and old pots from home can be added for weekend outing alsong side the patrol cook kit.

Young scouts, inexperienced cooks, are only opportunities waiting for a place to happen. Encourage, offer outdoor cooking classes, get the troop to have a couple of cooking contests...motivate, educate, then stand back and watch the fur...er the potato skins fly! Let us know how it is coming.

Last, (my opinion) if the patrol food cost is inflated by special requirements...this should be an expense charged through to the two new scouts and not charged to the patrol. It should also be a fact that occaisionally if the patrol wants a meat dish the other guys can accomodate the patrol...fair is the word here.

Hope this is not too late to be of help, First let me explain that we pull a nice size trailer along to most of our truck camps (as opposed to canoe or hiking camps)! All patrols have a wood kitchen (box)with stove, cook kit & utinsils (some plates for "company" but scouts use mess kits to eat from), griddle, oil, cocoa, propane hose, soap, scrub pads etc. two drop "doors" for working/cooking surfaces. On many of these boxes we added the back "door" (hinge, screws, latch,some paint... easy). Most patrols also carry a small plastic box,(2 - 4 gal. tote) for excess food items, we call these pantries. Now for the killer; each patrol has a real nice 2'x4' plastic top folding table (lifetime brand ?) for the kitchen to set on, (NO STINKING LEGS to mess with) and this results in a third working surface (roughly 2'x2')which can be easily sanitized. Each patrol has a Gas distribution 'tree', a propane lantern and a dining tarp to go over the whole kit and kaboddle. With this rig watching a camp 'set up' can be awe inspiring.

first posting and I don't know if this is still timely or helpful, but we start every camp with our tarps (rain fly). In developed campsites, patrols generally set their tarps in a semi circle around a common feature, say a flag pole or better, the fire ring (if there is such an animal). Enough room is left for troop use of the "feature". This is done FIRST. Having the tarps up, allows for 'dry' set up of our tents (when necessary) and then the tents can be 'relocated' to their 'site' in the woods (all of our tents are self supporting), then patrol kitchens are "set". The tents go 'back' into the campsite away from the ax yards, food, activity and refuse areas. This general camp format allows the tarp/kichen areas to be 1. easily inspected, and observed, 2.patrols can interact and have fun together during those rare liquid sunshine campouts, Even on our week long river trips the tarps are 'up' first and are the 'social centers' Adults set a separate camp along side the scouts (usually close to the new scout patrol)