gwd-scouter

One of the Webelos Dens that is soon crossing over to our Troop has scout accounts in their Pack funds. I don't know if they will send all of the funds in these accounts along with the Webelos, but I do know they have written checks from the Pack treasury to cover the registration fee and initial troop dues for some of the guys. I really was surprised by this since it's the first time I've heard of a Pack in our District setting up 'scout bucks' accounts. It isn't even common practice among our Troops. As far as I know, ours is the only Troop that does this. Regarding the Pack keeping money in the general fund from those guys that do not cross-over, what should they do with the money? I can't see writing checks to the parents. Seems to me the money is put into individual scout accounts to be used for scouting things and the parents don't get a refund if their scout doesn't continue in scouting. mmcnulty - from your initial post I take it your Pack does not set up individual scout accounts for profits from fundraisers. Back when I was a CM, our Pack didn't either. In that case, I would say you are under no obligation to send any money along with the Webelos when they cross over or when a Cub Scout moves to another Pack.

It was a REALLY small private school with only five sixth graders. Yes the principal was involved and his son was one of the two that signed up, paid, and then never showed up and stopped responding to phone calls and emails. An update on the Webelos that are joining our Troop. We will receive 10, six from one den, four from another. Already have the applications for most of them and four new Assistant Scoutmasters signed up, too (one is going to Outdoor Leader training next weekend, the others say they will go in the fall). Crossovers for both dens are next Sunday for one and Monday for the other. We have a campout planned specifically for these new Scouts just one week after they cross over, which makes me very happy that we actually got the new Scouts we hoped and planned for. Good times ahead.

There is not a spelunking merit badge now and I don't know if there ever was. Geology is a merit badge that fits in nicely with spelunking. There is a commercial operation our guys went to last year - Raccoon Mountain. They have an on staff geologist and offer to work on Geology merit badge with Scout groups. Our guys did not take this option, but it was there. Perhaps you will find the same is true in your area.

I am not in the Order of the Arrow, nor will I be. I have been nominated and have had others outside our Troop ask me why I'm not a member yet. Health issues would keep me from truly participating in the Ordeal and I'm not willing to be given special treatment. Just a personal decision and not anything against those that are given special consideration. In any case, both of my sons are members - older son Vigil, younger son Brotherhood - and both have been actively involved holding leader positions in their chapter and lodge and participating on ceremonies teams. The guys just love all the OA stuff. It is because of them, their friends in the order, and other active OA Scouts and Scouters I've met that I've come to know and admire the Order of the Arrow. Unfortunately, over the years, I've never seen much participation in our troop from any other guys once they complete their ordeal at summer camp. Get the patch, get the sash, that's it. It's not just our Troop either. I watch every summer as a large number of boys from our town get called out. They never go to chapter meetings. They are never seen at fellowships. Only a handful of guys help out at our Camporees. I wonder why. Since a Scout only has to be first class and have 15 nights of camping to be eligible for election, and with many troops putting so much emphasis on first class/first year, maybe these guys are just too young to be elected. They think perhaps it's cool to get the patch and a status symbol that they have something others don't, but they don't see the real purpose for the OA or feel the need for cheerful service. Then again, perhaps the fault is with the Scoutmasters that tell these guys how wonderful it is that they are eligible for election without getting into what it is really all about. I'm told that one has to attain Brotherhood in order to seal his membership in the OA. Why is it so many never do? Has it always been this way? Has it always been that only a few do more after their ordeal?

Getting back to Beavah's original post - what I've noticed over the years is while many Scouters take the training required for their position, the majority do not. Also just my observation, those that go on to the advanced training such as Woodbadge and Commissioner Science tend to fall into two categories: 1) The "look at me" types (those that talk about how well trained they are, have better ideas than anyone because they have more training, wear a whole bunch of square knots, are never seen actually putting any of it into practice) and 2) Scouters that genuinely want help to do their jobs better. Of course, there is that third category - Scouters that get talked into going only to find out they spent a lot of money and time and didn't get any real benefit from it. We have new ASMs coming in a couple of weeks with their Webelos crossovers. I have told them about the training and given them the dates. One is attending our Council's outdoor leader skills this weekend. I can honestly say that of all the training I've been to, the outdoor leader skills weekend is the best. I learned a lot as a new SM when I took the course. I learned a lot from the instructors, but learned much more from the other Scouters during those times when our patrol was working on something or just hanging out. I always cringe when I read someone post "get training" in response to another's problem or inquiry. The BSA trainings are good for what they do, but to really get a handle on how to be an effective Scouter we have to seek out others and share experiences. Beavah's right - no amount of training is going to fix, as he puts it, a dysfunctional bunch of adults. Neither is the BSA training going to make a new leader a great Scouter if he/she isn't willing to admit he/she doesn't have all the answers - even after training. Now that I think about it, in all the training I've taken the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack or the Boy Scout Oath and Scout Law were only mentioned during New Leader Essentials. Perhaps it's just our area, but they should be given more emphasis. After all, we expect our Scouts to know and live up to the Cub Promise or Scout Oath, right? Shouldn't we, as Scouters, be expected, and reminded in training, to do the same?

Your Webelos Scouts are in fourth grade and will finish the Arrow of Light requirements this spring (meaning, while still in fourth grade)? Wow, that's fast. Assuming none will be ten years old in the spring as well, what will they be doing next year as fifth grade Webelos? Just curious. Back to your question. I assume none of the three remaining sets of parents is willing to step up and be the Bear Den Leader, otherwise you wouldn't be asking. In my opinion it would be much better for you as the Wolf Den Leader to absorb these guys into your den and help them along to finish out the school year as Bears. It's only a few more months. Then in the fall, those Bears as fourth graders can go ahead and join the then fifth grade Webelos Den. Many packs are not large enough to have separate fourth and fifth grade Webelos Dens so it is quite common to have them combined. By this time next year, your now Wolf den will be a Bear den about to graduate to first year/fourth grade Webelos. The three current Bear guys, will have already had their fourth grade year in Webelos (with your husband's den) and will become the 2nd year Webelos in your den. Again, a combined den, but nothing wrong with that. Good Luck.

Great post Barry. Why do you always manage to get my point across better than I do?

Folks come here to vent, to find help, offer advice, or just ask a question. Others, it seems, come here to criticize or send the message that their way is the only way. I've certainly received my fair share of encouragement, advice, and criticism. I am into the beginning of my fifth year as Scoutmaster for our Troop, going from knowing pretty much nothing to where I am today - comfortable and enjoying the job now, but still, and probably always, learning. At the beginning it was my goal to take our small, apathetic, recruitingless, directionless, adult-led Troop toward the implementation of all eight Scouting Methods. Through these years I've made mistakes, tried different ideas, and made some real bone-headed changes that resulted in unintended and unforeseen consequences. I had my share of legacy scouts - older guys that never really bought into the changes and either transferred troops, faded away, or did the minimum required to 'get' Eagle. So, I focused my efforts on the few younger scouts we had and worked toward training them to be real leaders in our Troop. Yep, made a lot of mistakes along the way with that, too. The boy-led process has been difficult and messy. Hurt feelings have been had along the way. I consider myself fair, but sometimes my explanations for a perceived slight have fallen on deaf ears (both the scouts and parents). It's a sign of maturity when a guy can actually look past his own personal interest, stop asking "what's in it for me." and start thinking more about the "big picture." Maybe I'm foolish, but that for me is the major goal in my mentoring the Scouts. This forum has been a great help to me. While I read and think about those posts that criticize what goes on in our Troop and others, I have gained the most benefit from those that have honesty shared their experiences: what was tried, what worked, what didn't. All troops are not created equally - and none is perfect no matter what anyone says. The problems I have with our Troop may be similar to those of other very small Troops, but probably aren't at all typical in large Troops. For instance: we've never had a group of Webelos crossover and have received new Scouts one at a time. A new scout patrol was never an option for us. New scouts just had to fall in with the rest of the guys, sometimes fitting in quickly and easily, sometimes not. Now our Troop dynamics are changing again. We have three very experienced Scouts, two working on Eagle Projects and one about to earn Life. Four 7th-8th graders still learning how to be leaders, but a long way from the experience of our older guys. Three more in the Troop one year or less and frankly more immature than I remember typical eleven year olds being. Sorry, I digress. We have about 10 Webelos crossing over in a couple of weeks. Preparations have been made for them, new scout patrols, Troop Guides, etc. At the end of the summer all the boys will form themselves into two regular sized mixed-age patrols. I have some definite ideas about this, but will not interfere. Once again, we have something new that may lead to some poor choices and I'll likely post about it in the future. I hope that as I continue to share on this forum our Troop's experiences (the good, the bad, and the ugly), someone out there may see their own situation in my posts and will benefit from them.

In answer to Stosh's post - in essence the three experienced scouts in our troop are our venture patrol, though we don't call it that. We are a very small troop and have struggled with the patrol method since our initial chartering. It's a work in progress, we are still learning, and we've made mistakes along the way. All three of these scouts have been in leadership positions in our troop for many years. All three have almost never missed a campout or backpack trip. Two have been to NYLT. Two work on staff at summer camp. All three went on a adult-free hike last year for the first time. So, I wouldn't call that cherry picking. They have proved themselves. The two boys that want to be considered as 'older' scouts have not and if they are really honest with themselves they will realize that. We are not taking a real backcountry trip. Going to a State Park in upper South Carolina that has many hiking trails - easy, moderate, and difficult - and most connect to each other somewhere. We go to this park once a year, so by the time a guy has been in the Troop for a few years, and if he goes on the trips, he's very familiar with the trails. After camping together Friday night, all will have breakfast and pack up. The adults and less experienced scouts will take a easy to moderate set of trails on Saturday morning, arriving at that night's campsite in the early afternoon. The experienced guys will take a different set of trails, more difficult and longer, and will end up at the same campsite in the early evening. About leaderless outings: paraphrasing here, but the G2SS in fact does say that a patrol can do outings on their own, without adults.

"I've always wondered, what's the devil look like?" "Well, there are all manner of lesser imps and demons, but the great Satan hisself is red and scaly with a bifurcated tail, and he carries a hay fork." "Oh, no. No, sir. He's white, as white as you folks, with empty eyes and a big hollow voice." So go ahead with the pitchfork (or in this case hayfork), but make sure the jacket is white. Maybe put a smiley face on the back - those big black eyes look kinda empty to me.

Yeah, sorry, my post was confusing. First, let me say that these two guys I posted about were not considered for the adult-less hike. They 'considered' themselves for it. We have three experienced Scouts that have done a solo hike before, and quite long and strenuous multi-day hikes with adults. The idea of this trip was planned months ago, although the final details were not until last month. Last November's backpack trip was a shakedown for anyone wanting to go solo on this month's trip. The two boys I mentioned that consider themselves 'older' scouts did not go on the trip last November. Yes, it was agreed to by the PLC and mandatory if a scout wanted to go adult-less on this trip - regardless of the reason unless the scout had experience from other similar trips. Everyone knew this was supposed to be a hike through trip, and I agree that it shouldn't be changed at the last minute. All the scouts in our troop, with the exception of our one brand new scout, are capable of this hike-through with full backpacks. The reason I think the two scouts I mentioned as considering themselves as 'older' will choose not to go on this trip is because they were the two that were pushing changing the trip to a round-trip (day) hike rather than an overnight hike through. Easier for them - they can leave their tents and things at the campsite since they will be returning later. Also agree that having only three guys on the separate hike is not safe. Actually, son and I talked about that just yesterday and he agreed. Oh well, guess our three experienced backpackers will have another opportunity to pass on their skills and knowledge to those less experienced. I've tried for some time to get the guys to think of themselves more in line with their level of experience and not just by age and rank. I've known some 12-year-old first class scouts that were better prepared for more adventurous camping and hiking than some 17-year-old Eagles. This little event may just help.

We have a backpacking trip coming up. The older Scouts are once again going on their own without adults and the adults and younger scouts doing an easier hike. That was the plan anyway. Everyone arrives on Friday night and camps. Then, the older guys pack up their gear and take a rather strenuous series of trails. The younger scouts and adults pack up and take an easier trail. Everyone to meet up at the next campsite on Saturday evening. At last week's meeting, there was some turmoil over who was considered an older scout and could go on the adult-less hike. Let's please not get into a patrol discussion here, that's an area our small troop still has some problems with. Two scouts thought they should be included in the adult-less hike. While they consider themselves older scouts (they've been in the troop going on 3 years), they have not demonstrated the maturity or skills to conduct themselves properly on such an outing - especially if they are together. Besides, we had a trip last fall that was decided to be the shake-down trip for this particular trip and neither boy went. Add to that, neither of these two scouts has attended many of our backpack trips in the past. Finally, after seeing the plans and trails being taken for the hike, these two scouts voted against the hike-through plan and wanted an up and back type of hike. The younger scouts were also going to do a much less strenuous hike-through, but voted against it as well. That way, they wouldn't have to actually carry ALL of their gear. I can understand the younger scouts wanting an easier time of it, but the two guys that wanted to be included as older scouts voted to take the easier way as well. This does not show readiness to me. My son and two other scouts that I consider very well qualified to hike on their own were disappointed in this vote. The whole purpose of their hike was to show their experience and maturity to handle themselves without adults. The three of them are completely capable of taking a long strenuous hike with all their gear. Now, the other boys have turned it into little more than a day hike, which our older scouts have done many many times. I did have a discussion with the two scouts I mention here. Neither was too happy about being reminded of the shake-down trip that they didn't attend. One told me that my husband said he could go on this trip with the older scouts - husband says he doesn't remember telling this scout anything of the kind. The other scout was downright angry. In his case, while he's been in the troop for almost three years, his attendance is sporadic, especially when it comes to our more adventurous outings. We have younger scouts than he with more maturity, skills, and experience. I wonder what these two took way from our talk and what decision they'll make. Will they go ahead and go on the hike with the adults, or will they just opt out of the trip altogether? I know where my money is on this, but I hope I'm wrong.

Yep, I'm a triple threat: I'm a Democrat I'm not a Christian I'm gay as in, "I feel pretty, and witty, and gay" Have a nice day folks.

I meant that the one piece unit number patch is not available online. The individual numerals are available online in both color varieties.

I have no problem at all with people having different faiths, beliefs, or whatever. I know Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through belief in Jesus as savior and that all others will not get into Heaven. Again, no problem with that. What I have a problem with is an eleven-year-old telling me that I'm going to Hell, and his parents essentially backing him up on that, since I don't subscribe to his particular brand of religion.

By the way, welcome to the Forum.

Well, I have a couple of guys in our Troop that feel anyone who doesn't believe as they do are going to Hell - and one of them told me that to my face. Both boys have been quite vocal about their beliefs, and discussions with them about the BSA stance regarding religion prompted some rather negative comments from their parents about MY belief system.

scoutstuff.org. Can't order online, phone is: 1-800-323-0736 Just ordered the one piece patch in green and tan, but the salesperson said they still do the red/white.

awilson - remember a Scout is Trustworthy. I believe that holds true for Scouters as well. As a Scoutmaster I have to say it would certainly bother me if I asked a parent not to do something and they did it anyway as his/her little secret.

Oh well, guess I'm out.

We only had one school night this year. The school we've done in the past was given to a different Troop. We were given a small private school and only got two sign ups. Sadly, neither of those (and both actually filled out application forms and paid) ever showed up to a meeting. They signed up last November. For one reason or another, both said they'd start coming to meetings at the beginning of the year. I kept in touch, but eventually they stopped replying. Interesting tidbit: The den leader from one of the dens joining us stopped by last night to drop off his and his son's applications. He told me about their visit to two other troops before deciding to join ours. In his opinion, the other two troops were just too adult led. Even worse, one SM spent most of their meeting lecturing about the rules, and at the other some of the older boys were downright disrespectful to the adults trying to conduct a lesson. So, our boy led Troop is small, messy and requires the guys to work harder, but it is one thing some actually liked about our troop and they are coming soon. In the end I see this as having worked out for the best. The boys and parents that are joining our Troop made the decision because they liked what they saw. When they camped and visited with us, we didn't clean up our act just for visitors. They saw our Troop - warts and all.

I'm not familiar enough with the requirements of all the merit badges to know which I think could/should be eliminated. Just working from the common badges our guys earn: I agree and have posted elsewhere that the three citizenship badges should be combined. I also don't see the need for dog care and pet care as individual badges. Sure, some merit badges are easy to earn - music for instance. All the guys in marching/concert band have earned that one. The trumpet players usually go on to earn bugling - though that one is rather difficult for some. Reading and scholarship are two that most guys earn early in their Boy Scouting career. I see no problem there, although I believe they could be combined. Why sports and a separate badge for golf? The reason I ask is why an individual badge for golf and none for any other sport? Maybe a general sports badge with an emphasis required for a particular sport. Ditto for collections and then individual for stamp and coin collecting. The badge I would nominate as being the least productive/meaningful/useful is fingerprinting. Can't tell you the number of times I hear a Scoutmaster at summer camp tell his new Scouts "go take fingerprinting tonight, it's easy and you'll earn your first badge." DeanRX - there is a medicine merit badge.

Wow, didn't take long for this thread to get off track. Oh well, we takes what we gets. SSScout - have always heard the glass half full/empty/wrong size thing, but I love the addition of the Scouter's view of the glass.

I've posted in other threads about our small troop and our efforts to recruit new Scouts. We do not have a 'feeder' pack and we've reached out to Webelos den leaders from many packs in the District. Not much success over the years. We've had increased visits from dens, but no crossovers. We planned campouts and day hikes just for them to help with Outdoorsman and/or AOL. Oh yes, the Webelos came, satisfied their requirements, and then joined other Troops that did nothing to reach out to them. Yes, it's been upsetting, but we continued our efforts. Last year, we were visited by four Webelos dens from three different Packs (three 2nd year and one 1st year). They camped with us, hiked with us, and the three 2nd year dens attended at least two meetings over the past year. Head count and early commitment from parents showed we could possibly receive 18 crossovers in March and April. I have to say, our Scouts were both excited and scared at the prospect. I, too, had some concerns in that 18 new Scouts would triple the size of our Troop. Youth leadership is working very well. Our three oldest Scouts are marvelous at running things, the three in the middle are coming up well, and then we have three newer Scouts still learning how to handle themselves. The den leader for one of the dens called the other night to say they had decided to join a different Troop. He said he was really disappointed and very much wanted to join our Troop. However, he said the parents voted to keep all the boys together and liked the fact that the other Troop had more older Scouts that would help train the new Scouts. Yep, true the other Troop has more older Scouts - they have more Scouts all together. Another concern was that he heard we were getting new Scouts from other dens as well and some of the parents thought that would make our Troop too young. The majority of boys in the other two dens have decided to cross over to our Troop at the end of this month, which brings us at least 8, perhaps 10, new Scouts. A manageable number for our guys. I think they will be a bit relieved when I tell them the news tomorrow night. I am very proud of our Troop. Just the fact that so many dens gave us a look and strongly considered joining our Troop, let's me know we've come a long way from being the little Troop no one knows about.

Realizing that I seem to be in the minority on this politics thread, I have to ask: what is wrong with optimism? I am an unabashed optimist. Things always work out for me. I ask myself if things work out because I'm an optimist or am I an optimist because things work out. Probably will never get to the answer. In any case, I am dismayed by the doom and gloom being spouted by folks like Limbaugh and Hannity, republican strategists on CNN, and House and Senate republicans I listen to on CSPAN. I watched Limbaugh's CPAC speech. Even my republican husband couldn't watch it all the way through. I did though. I figure one can't make a reasoned argument for or against something if one hasn't at least tried to hear from both sides. I switch over to Hannity every once in a while, but I'm afraid his show has turned into nothing more than an hour of unashamed Obama bashing. Some of the same people that complain about Obama painting too negative a picture about the economy are themselves negative about it. Personally, I appreciate a President speaking directly to the American people about our country's troubles. Yes, he says it's bad, but I also hear him say that while it will take time, we will get through this. So I ask, does all the negativity really help our economic situation? If all folks want to hear is how Obama and the democrats in Congress are going to be the ruination of our Country, won't this become self-fulfilling? President Obama still enjoys high approval ratings, so it seems the majority of the population is willing to support him and give him a chance. I don't expect the economy to turn around this year and maybe not significantly in the next. That doesn't mean I'm willing to throw our President under the bus because my retirement savings haven't suddenly revived in the mere weeks since he was sworn in.