Gunny2862

Yes and it's a Bear, especially when all those flip turns you do at the workout pool get translated into "And you can't only not push off but you can't touch the side AT ALL either".

Fully agree Beavah!

Although I might prefer the Pro (not me) go do the avalanche check and then based on his experience have him then show the boys why it's good or not.

OGE, I agree here also. Just because someone has worked in the Safety field in one way or another may or may not make them experts in whatever aspect of safety we're talking about, and in general we should expect some modicum of common sense in our Adult leaders.

But I would also think that just like we expect a little bit more than that of our Camp Aquatics Supervisor, Or Camp RSO, we might ought to expect that same little bit more from a HA Director.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

OGE, I think you are correct, but that most of us are splitting hairs.

The first thing is that this thread isn't really about the Scouts, it is about Adults and is more specific to HA directors.

People are jumping in without reading the thread and commenting that we are asking too much from the Scouts - well we aren't really talking about them except to address the folks who jump in here.

People are jumping in without reading the thread and commenting that we are asking too little or too much from the "Trained" Adult - well we aren't really talking about them except to address the folks who jump in here.

The folk who have worked as Safety program administrators in one capacity or another are splitting other hairs.

It's kind of disjointed but I'm still getting something out of it.

le Voyageur,

Exceptions occur of course but a general rule, concur.

Thanks for the nod, le Voyageur. Glad to be of service. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Pack,

I've seen the Vacumn truck video before, probably actually more effective at removal but you still have the relocation/ disposal issues to deal with. And if disposal, is a humane method used to dispatch? IDK...

I've also heard the loss of carrying capacity due to loss of grass near the burrows but that wasn't an issue I've been exposed to. I don't know about the bigger picture on the stats of how often the horse injuries due to this occur. Even the one in life incident could have been something else that happened in proximity and got blamed on them... Again IDK and at best is only one data point.

Best comment on the link provided was along the lines of, but not a direct quote, At least it keeps the crazies occupied.

Pack, if somone owns a ranch and loses a horse because of a nuisance caused by a varmint and want to eradicate the cause, the statistics don't really matter to him.

I don't own a ranch, or horses, but do like help my friends with problems that fall in my skill set.

If you would like to write a paper, I'm not sure how you'd go sourcing or researching that but good luck.

So Basement, better to just ignore the Varmints and just let the horses break their legs?

Solution please? You're addressing what you believe shouldn't be done but not what the fix is.

By the way - this is still off topic and there was a specif topic opened to address hunting to allow this one to return to it OP's theme.

To a degree I agree I wouldn't necessarily be using objective and subjective criteria to feed complex information to Scouts who weren't at lest eligible to be Venturers unless they were clearly interested and motivated to learn the material in such depth.

OTOH, I like acronyms as long as they're not convoluted.

STOP is even if simple, at least might set a panicked Scout or for that matter a misplaced Scouter on the right path towards proper action. Remember a lot of Scouters could NOT qualify as Outward Bound guides - so we aren't talking about Wilderness Experts here.

It's not so much an acronym as a mnemonic but it's relatively short and if said with some rhythm is catchy and easy to remember, but "Start the Breathing, Stop the Bleeding, Protect the Wound and Treat for Shock" will never replace the training of a poor EMT much less a good one but for the layperson in a confusing and stressful situation it gives a pretty good list of places to start and a decent order of operations.

OODA the Boyd cycle acronym - taught to early fighter pilots is still used today to evaluate combat cycles. In some circles so quickly it's near instantaneous in other tempos it is used to evaluate entire campaigns. Does it in it's simplicity allow for a complete understanding and evaluation, of course not, but it develops a framework the rest is being built on.

the 4B's Beans, Bullets, Band-Aids and Bad Guys - four things the deployed Corporal always wants to continuously be aware of. Of course it is really about more complex info especially on the Bad Guys but the logistics side goes deeper also.

Acronym based mnemonics are rarely the full answer but they tend to be away those who have to remember information away from the cloud or reference materials can organize structures which lead to more complex actions. Especially if those actions need to be structured in a particular order that can be supplied by the mnemonic.

Welcome!

Apple should work after initial login, I use a Windows machine, a Mac Air, and am on a 3GS iPhone typing this.

I was thinking of small nuisance ground living animals that create nuisances to horses and their riders and that left unchecked will take over your property and make the entire thing unrideable land unless you are willing to risk maiming the horse.

le Voyageur, not having been on the ground,

My issue for a range on site 1 is the limiting factors of being an east west orientation. It's hard to shoot into the sun and limits early morning or late afternoon depending on your choice of orientation.

Just from the view shown, and realizing it would be more work clearing your lanes, I'm liking site 3 with a north south orientation and what appears to be open land and a HUGE backstop. Would all of that possible beaten are be able to be reserved as an impact zone?

Basement - see new thread - BSA and Hunting Good or Ill Fitting

Lets' get this one back on it's original topic.

Can we stipulate that there are non-game animals that we kill as nuisances and don't eat - or is that going to be too big a stretch?

Well it IS a Venturing crew.

I think the one thing you'll find consensus on is that the initial investigation was ridiculous. That's why everyone's ridiculing it.

Attempt at an analogue:

A)I'm thinking about teaching a Venturing crew about Power generation, I'm thinking about starting with the skills they'll need to do so including building a power plant ,like welding.

B)No, we need to remove the Welding merit badge, because they boys may learn to be pipefitters and build steam power plants that will overwhelm the eco-system with their coal fired nastiness. And that would be evil.

C)But we aren't teaching them to build coal fired steam power plants. We're talking about Welding.

B)But they could and you are evil for wanting to teach them these things.

C)Hey I'm not evil, welding is a way for boys to not only learn the mechanics and theory of joining metal but of working under uncomfortable conditions and coordinating the motions of their hands, about safety systems for both electrical and Gas modalities. Not only that but unleashes the creative potential they may have that may discover the next great invention - maybe one that could get us off fossil fuels.

B)They could build coal fired power plants. Still not going to take back calling you evil.

Yeah I know it's juvenile but at this point I can't resist...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

Try going with the facts there E.

Any High School educated person should be able to talk about the mass extinction for hide, leaving meat to rot. In part for the sheer profit on the hides and in barely, masked if at all attempt to eradicate, control or remove the indigenous population by food pressure.

There was no attempt at Conservation until after the herds were nearly extinct, and they barely survived.

Moderators.

If this is going to be about the politics or ethics of hunting rather than the OP's intended direction which was the Marksmanship portion of how to get a Venturing crew spun up to become good hunters - doesn't it need a new topic - and if so given the Direction E seems to want to go maybe Issues and Politics?

"But I'll agree that folks biases and choice of information sources make me discouraged and sad. I'd like to believe that among scouters in America, the starting presumption would be in favor of the unarmed kid buyin' a snack and talkin' to his girlfriend."

But as shown in my early posts in this thread, I did start there - with everyone else - on the junk news everyone was working off of.

I am being skeptical, it seems everyone else is just continuing down one path and making other assumptions. Because we don't have the facts because of at the very least a poor investigation and the things we can never KNOW anyway, there seems that there is room for both points of view.

Clearly no one has to discount anything... many are sticking with their preconceived notions based on their individual biases and not even trying to see if there is an "other" or "more" truth.

I have changed views and at this point still see myself as in the middle - but looking at a virtual lynch mob.

I am still willing to follow the truth and would agree that if the facts finally did show an overzealous and violent short man with an overblown sense of self senselessly killing an innocent child who wandered into his path that he should be publicly strung up on the town square - after a trial.

But the facts aren't clearly supporting that interpretation.

Can't help with the Safe explanation.

Agree that Think and Observe is in the STOP acronym for a reason.

Beavah,

I've seen nothing that supports these claims:

"Trayvon Martin was an innocent, unarmed kid with no record goin' about his own lawful business."

- While its true that he has no police record he apparently has multiple interactions with school authorities including the one that had him on an out of school suspension for drug related activity, which occasioned his visit to his father.

"Zimmerman did not attend Police Academy, but rather a citizens education program that was substantially shorter than police academy training and did not provide certification."

- This may be the truth but is not the way it has been presented in any media I have read.

"George Zimmerman, based solely on "appearance" called in a report that incorrectly accused Trayvon of being on drugs and an ***hole who always gets away, along with perhaps other names. "

- Where do you get solely on appearance? Or perhaps other names, unless referring to the Goon vs. Coon controversy, which has been called both ways by partisans of either side and as unidentifiable by neutral listeners. Even in the transcripts of the non-emergency call it's his activity walking between the houses looking around them that gets him noticed.

" George Zimmerman ignored the clear recommendation and direction of the police dispatcher, and pursued Trayvon by vehicle and on foot."

"Trayvon attempted to run away from his pursuer."

Neither allegation supported by the details of the investigation that have been released.

First of these two, refuted by the evidence that he did cease to follow and had returned from being on foot to the truck prior to the fatal encounter.

"In the end, based on the testimony of his girlfriend there were words between the two."

- The girlfriend as far as I know cannot be shown to be on the phone with him at the time and is reported to have remembered her conversation with him 3 weeks after the event.

"There may have been a scuffle in which Zimmerman may have suffered some relatively minor injuries."

- There was a scuffle and it lasted long enough that there were witnesses, listed on the police report. Many injuries are minor after the fact - they don't feel that way when they occur - ever been punched in the nose? Whether it breaks or not it's going to get your attention.

For the rest of it, count me on records as agreeing the Police handled the Investigation poorly.

I absolutely agree that the PD needs investigation, that this has gotten here because of the lack of, or shody investigation is atrocious.

Well Beav, that's great subjective interpretation.

You are posting unsourced facts I'm unaware of that haven't appeared in in any media coverage I've seen.

I think if asked I can go back and find media reports that show the facts I've presented, or that back my opinions - although I've had a few subjective items in the mix also. I've been posting links to back up my thoughts all along.

Where's yours? None so far but plenty of speculation.

BS-87, do you know the source of those pictures? The only video I've seen was black and white and had nowhere near even the un-enhanced picture's detail.

Besides, as I'm sure someone else might point out - how do we know that's not just a skinfold on his head, there are folks who have them, if it were the gash why wouldn't it be bandaged? Edit is this answer a second thought, More and more ER's and EMT's are closing clean cuts with Super glue - thus the lack of Blood and of a Bandage.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

OGE, that question has been asked but not answered.

Corollary questions include why the outrage here when shootings between suspected gang members as part of suspected gang activity have killed complete bystanders, children playing on their front porch.

At least in this case there are allegations of a potential death threat, an attack and mutual combat. That child playing on her own porch deserves this much attention or more - a true and clear innocent victim. Wheres the outrage for her?