Gunny2862

Yeah, but we have to remember that we are doing this "For the Boys".

In our case we follow the announce as soon as they complete their BOR, attempt to have the badge at the next meeting, outing, or event. And then present the Card and Mother's pin at the next CoH. In this way there is instant feedback, recognition, and reinforcement.

Wouldn't it be nice if the real world did work that way for us adults? And look at the massive costs(not) we incur doing it, I mean, How long ago did Napoleon Bonaparte figure out that a man will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon Incentives don't have to break the bank and when properly scheduled (Skinner) can drive long periods of higher productivity than are available without.

But in recognizing that it doesn't, who are we doing this for? IMHO, it's important that we give these youth with their undeveloped brains and thus undeveloped pathways to recognize the virtues of waiting, every opportunity to BE rewarded as soon as possible. Inevitably there will be something in Scouting that they will need to wait for especially after they reach 1st Class(waiting periods - i.e. time in a POR?).

It's all about building character - but that's hard to do in a kid who doesn't stick around because the timeline for recognition of the work they did is too long.

On another note re: an off-hand comment about Color Guards: Military Color guards v. what Boy Scouts do - While some of you may think it's easy. It's isn't done without a degree of discipline that isn't typically found, without being crafted into the people doing the ceremony.

I assure you that most troops have folks around who can craft some vague similarity but the reality is that the folks who do that as part of their additional duties in the Military(not mentioning the degree of perfection attained by the fine individuals who do this at our major national cemeteries or for say ceremonies like are held weekly at 8th & I) spend hours doing tedious repetitions of the smallest movements, hours doing nothing but standing holding the flags, facing movements, making invisible marks on the poles to guide correct hand placement. In trying to craft this kind of perfection into the youth that I see I'd be dealing with only one Scout - the rest would all run off - the Scout who stayed is that weirdo who eats that stuff up!

Not to say that there aren't Troops out there who do a fine job, but to get the product I remember developing there needs to be a sense of Commitment, Pride and believe it or not to take some pain because to do it properly means doing enough repetitions that it is very real WORK. Work that I think some posters would object to their little boys being subjected to - "Can't you just take it easy, they're not in the Military?" "Aren't you being a little too serious about this? They're just boys."

So, let the Scouts do their Color Guards and remember that we are hopefully developing over time people who will be willing to take on the challenges of building and preserving our society and perhaps, in some instances, guarding it. But the bottom line is the Scouts are not a paramilitary organization.

Just ensure that the COR and CC are doing their jobs and ensuring the SM has support.

A one or two man show of one SM and one ASM is a sure sign you are going to burn out one or the other at some point... And if you have a paper ASM who's "around" but not helping lift the load... unless you have a very special individual as your SM, you better start looking for his replacement.

A Good SM with proper support doesn't need to go to every meeting at every level, not even every Troop meeting as has been mentioned above, but a Good (and not burning out) SM will always WANT to go to as many as he can "for the Boys".

Ditto Beavah, especially about sounding out the spouses.

I take issue that Calvin doesn't like Camping, he doesn't like Family Camping see the link - no problem with Scouting...Hey, I think I know that kid... http://dlazechk.dl.funpic.org/weekdayboyscout.html

21 years in the USMC, no tats to date. Wife spent ten years in the USMC, also no tats to date.

Considering wedding ring tats for our 20th anniversary.

But one reason we have each avoided the tattoo artists to date is that the commonality of designs(especially that many of the designs seem to not be individual, but almost reproducible trademark like items) which seems to lower their value of (in our eyes).

But a larger portion than normal of our church staff is tatted, a unique distinction I think - they tend to small but visible stylistic (rough hewn wooden) crosses.

I don't have a problem with tats in general; but some styles do lend to pre-judgement - just like the way folks wear their clothes...

Concur, the central point is the Scout being the project lead and managing all aspects of his project even if he winds up not picking up a tool once - it's a Leadership project for him.

Of course I'd prefer to see him doing work and not just standing around watching, there's active management and there's loafing while others work.

As far as my helping, it's an issue if I'm thinking about much more than doing what I was directed to do and of being safety aware while monitoring that the Scout is actually leading the project. Beyond that, I'm doing to much.

Previous SM was a transplant recipient and he was scrupulous about what he put in his body, ESPECIALLY when backpacking/camping.

His choice was the MSR Sweetwater filter for everything but viruses and he used the MSR Sweetwater Solution to handle the viruses.

The Troop partially follows his lead to this day substituting the MSR Hiker Pro for the Sweet Water filter due to initial cost and ruggedness issues with the boys (we have one Hiker Pro with an interesting pump handle fix but haven't broken one of those to un-usability yet.)

I've used many different filtration methods and really like the Troops answer, yes, there is an aftertaste, but to me it is VERY slight and nowhere near that of any of the tablet answers I have ever used, plus the wait time is only 5 minutes after adding the solution.

As with a lot of things going on in this thread - people are taking what happens in their neck of the woods and assuming it happens the same way elsewhere.

Community Gardens have different purposes and rules. That's why I stated according to its' rules in my original touch on Community Gardens

Red Cross Instructors add to what they instruct.

People think we're talking about POR terms of service and not just Service hours.

But things are becoming so contentious that unless a poster spells out every detail of what happens locally, responders to the post aren't taking the general idea but then picking the posters point apart on the fact that it may not match what happens in their locality.

I assure you I got all of those certifications by taking the WFA course, which wound up being about 25 hours, vice the 16 the syllabus says it should be.

Not all Community Gardens are Eagle projects nor are they all solely for soup kitchen or alternative food programs.

Not all Scouts who work in them are wealthy, and may be part of a population that wouldn't see fresh produce without working in the garden.

Sometimes their whole family works the garden to ensure they actually produce enough for it to be shared among all of the "members" and in that sense it could be taken as Beavah states that they are simply being renumerated and no volunteerism should attach.

Again, depending on how the Scout approached it, I might take his hours and I might not, it's NOT about the hours - it's about the attitude of service - Is he putting in hours at the Garden only because he gets a share or does he want his neighbors and any others who share or receive a gift to have the best it can produce would be an example of one difference.

"Develop the character", not "account his time - and ensure anything he does outside doesn't count" and I thought we weren't supposed to really think of "in Scouting" and "out of Scouting". Aren't all of their daily life activities all opportunities to engage the Scout in development whether we structured it as a Scouting event or not?

I also don't really see the difference between my certification example and what I conceive of as double-dipping, or at least allowable double-dipping.

I'll try again:

If a Scout goes to work at a Community Garden for a number of hours, does he not get to eat his share of the produce(divided as agreed in the Community Garden rules) if I count those hours for Scouting?

Beavah, I've never read that description of double counting, for POR 1/2 the time for each counts as one term of service - I don't think I could take that and has never been in my viewpoint on service hours.

But if a Scout(1) helps another Scout(2) work on his Eagle project, then I could see counting Scout 1's hours toward his advancement. Some here would apparently think that we shouldn't do that, that they should only count towards Scout 2's Eagle project hours using them to benefit both Scouts would be again, double-dipping.

Ok no double dipping - flip the page - has anyone seen a Scouting achievement matrix?

So just for instance, Since someone takes Wilderness First Aid thru the Red Cross we can't credit them with Red Cross AED and Red Cross First Aid/CPR? Do they still have to go get the separate certifications even though they covered the material in the WFA class? I mean even if the Red Cross gives them the cards for The four different certifications, they only took one class - surely it would be wrong of us to count the other three certifications for Scouting?

What's ridiculous to me is that we are discussing this and in almost every "in life" example has a Scout doing many times the requirement and we are talking about if the hours he does on purpose for someone else (that are not stipulated by either organization as to be counted only for that organization) can be counted for both.

I have no problem taking those hours.

Now give me a Scout who sits in a class that is counted a service hours by another organization and coincidentally that same number of hours is needed by him to advance in Scouting but he's never at Eagle projects, he 's never at Scouting for Food, and doesn't have any ongoing service he just does as a part of his life(whatever it might be) but can be reliably found on the couch at home - maybe I don't take his attempt to double count.

Best comment in thread! - JMHawkins

"Lets look at a hypothetical, using 5Years son. Lets say 5Year Jr. and his Patrol mate Zeke both make First Class at the same time. Zeke goes to a different school that doesnt require service projects, and isnt in FFA or NHS. A year later, Zeke has checked off all of his Star requirements, including doing a 6 hour service project with the Scout Troop. 5Year Jr. has done everything except the service project. Over the year, he has done 12 * 21 = 252 hours of service work, but it was for other things and he cant count it because that would be double-dipping. So, as the SM, youre going to say with a straight face that Zeke, with his 6 hour service project, has demonstrated the spirit of selfless giving and service to others, but 5Year Jr. with his 252 hours still hasnt quite got it?"

Now to turn that slightly on it's side, IF a Scout were to have involved himself with the authorities and were doing Community Service hours as part of some retributive or restorative effort a s a result of his legal issues, ain't no way I'm double counting those hours.

But I think the major point that has been skipped over by almost everyone is the idea that another part of being a Scoutmaster isn't just ensuring the rules are followed - It's also dealing with each individual Scout to assist with the development of their character. These are people, not computers; we grow them, not program them.

And on that note what's with the incivility in the program threads, thought that was for the political area?

IWTGBTP...

Ditto on size and filling space available.

Ideally, build your gear list - don't forget water and space for 2-3 days of Philmont trail food(5-6 Nalgenes will just about substitute for the void of a full food reload but not the weight unless you fill them about 5/8 way), take it to the store, find the smallest pack that will carry that load, buy that pack or at least now you have a realistic cubic inch number to work with and should be close to your max pack weight for Philmont.

An outfitter type store won't have any problem with this but, of course, would prefer that you bought at least some of your gear from them.

Keep it Simple, Make it fun - You keep hearing it because you can apply it to everything and it works.

For an Individual or backpacking Mess kit - We recommend a Frisbee or Orikaso (either plate or bowl) with Sporks and either an Eagle Industries or Orikaso cup and will usually cook with Jetboils PCS and/or GCS.

Otherwise we're draggin' the trailer with the big LP Stoves and have Plates, Bowls, Silverware and all provisioned in the Cook kits.

@packsaddle I have a Sterling on my desk for when it's faster than typing into the TI-83+ and/or I don't need 6 or more decimal places. If you're seriously giving a working K&E away I'd like to be considered...

@Basementdweller - Yup, when I feel the need to FEEL the control over something in my life - my Yard starts looking real good and the Dog gets some tune-up time.

BS-87, don't forget to include Gov't Contracting procedures - can rally mark-up the inventory that way. Plus you can get free Diplomatic cover in the right circumstances... wink.

I realize this isn't Scouting, but, the same behaviors occur on our college campus's among our "best and brightest" from presumable "adults".

The whole thing is ridiculous and belies any character we may believe is in the youth perpetrating it.

On keeping down bags dry, unless you are on a floating expedition or your bag gets wet while in the tent, I have a hard time visualizing the circumstance where a properly packed sleeping bag would get wet.

In spite of the daily (all except one) showers that nailed us on the trail last year I had no gear suffer the indignity of being wet except for my worn clothing( and then only to the degree it got wet before I got my Jacket on). No one in our crew had any issues on the Trail either.

Now in Camp we did have four folks wind up with 1/2 soaked sleeping bags but that wasn't a packed situation (2 tents flooded due to staffed camp siting of our tents) and they recovered nicely - their bags were completely dry on day two after the wetting. Two down/Two synthetic - the down bags were actually dry before the down bags.

While I concur that wet synthetic will keep you warmer than wet down - neither is a joy to sleep in, and if I had to I think I'd put on my extra clothing, Rain suit and then put the wet insulating layer over the top rather than try to sleep in the bag anyway.

Buffalo Skipper, be aware that you would either need to carry your entire food supply or count on a "best effort" level of support in having your meals available at the designated pickup commissaries.

I don't have any experience with having to have them forward other than the regular meals out to the commissaries and thus can't comment on how well they do. But please let us know about your experiences as my next crew will include some folks with special dietary restrictions and we may need to do a similar action for them.

Sleeping bags, depends on how you sleep.

I was able to keep my down jacket from becoming a smellable and used it on top of Mt.Phillips to bolster the rating of my 40 degree sleeping bag. With my sleep pants and a pair of down booties I was not exactly comfortable but did get to sleep. But that was the only night I needed anything other than the bag alone.

Tarps, I saw crews using multiple tarps for a cooking area, for gear storage, to keep their packs dry during stops, as a staging area, sometimes all at once. We only took one tarp for our cooking area and found it was all we needed. Ours was actually a leftover tent fly that a pack we were camping with left behind and we re-purposed it after we had contacted them and were unable to find anyone who wanted to claim it from the pack.

And let's stop flying the Veterans benefits canard.

While I grant that it is an expense, a large portion of it (Retiree pay and benefits, I.E. retiree health care) are contractual obligations for people who fulfilled their obligations in a contract.

Disclosure, I am a"Gray area" retired Reservists, I do not draw any of those benefits yet but plan to and consider them an Government obligation to my contracted service, not an "entitlement" as we are considering the handouts to people who haven't done anything to earn their entitlement.