Fuzzy Bear

BL, You have my attention: "Great kid, nice family, he just deals with issues that he can not be held responsible for." "great guy and worth every bit of effort we can muster; well then.." "The behavioral issues are beyond a SMC and are being dealt with by professionals." If the young man is "not responsible" for his behavior, If the SM cannot handle the behavior, If professionals are dealing with the behavior, then a PL will be in over his head. The adults in this situation are lacking a clear understanding of their own knowledge and have given responsibility to a young person that will deal with the behaviors the best way he can. Simply stated, it is knowing one's limits that is important. You have defined your own answer. FB

You have made an observation, administered a type of test, and drawn a conclusion. Your reasoning could still be faulty because your sample may be too small or not random enough. I believe what you want to know is if pioneering skills are the standard by which Scouting is known by Scouts and adults. I personally believe your conclusion is correct for several good reasons without further testing. Take it from another point of view. Over the last few decades, Scouting has taken a "leave no trace" philosophy. Building fires with wood has been replaced with how to buy a good backpacking stove. Camp gadgets are more along the lines of buying a good lightweight folding stool or a freestanding tent. Scouts would be embarrassed to have a handmade backpack or a handmade pack frame. They generally only have the best in technology that and Mom and Dad can provide. Cutting down a tree for a project is almost thought of as being sinful. Most Scouters camp but when was the last time anybody here cut down a tree and helped to build a Signal Tower or a Monkey Bridge? If it was done at all, it was most likely for one special event and even then, it was done with trepidation or a kind of fear that we have destroyed our last resource. I am sure that when the boys were involved at any stage that we probably preached about how wrong it is to cut down a tree. We would justify it by saying that it is alright this one time. Even when I was a Scout, building a log cabin was something that I wanted to do but "being conservation minded" overrode my desire. Today, I still think about building a log cabin for my boys to play in but I would still feel very wasteful doing it. I have access to the trees but if I cut one, it is because it is diseased, dead, or about to fall over, so it is taken out only for safety or health purposes. In the early days of Scouting, I would have been considered too conservative minded. Boys and adults did cut down trees and build all kinds of projects and yes, a log cabin was one of them. Scouting has moved away from using the trees in the out of doors for little more than identification, beauty, and something to not camp under in a storm. Trees should be known for their characteristics because they have purpose and make a statement in all of our lives. Trees are a thing of beauty and hold a place of importance for everyone. They take years to grow and can still be one of our best outdoor friends. We should stay away from them in a storm but during the day, they are the best for getting out of the sun and the heat. Which brings us back to how our Assistant Scout Masters are now using the trees. They are using them to do the very things that we preach about. (*That is why they usually are sitting under them talking during Summer Camp.) Outdoor Scouting skills emphasize other aspects of the woods than the once beloved knots. As far as tying a tautline hitch, even that was replaced years ago with those little metal do-dads. The majority of Scouts are learning the things that we think are important. They take their Scouting seriously and usually follow our example. We follow the Scout books and the Scouting philosophy. We ask them to do exactly what the requirements ask of them and no more. We should not be surprised when their knowledge about something that is no longer emphasized is very sketchy. In fact, we should be proud. I doubt I will ever shake the dream of building a log cabin. FB

PW, I have had experience with autistic children, several levels and in different settings. I would like to share a few practical ideas from my experience. Establish a relationship with the person to get to know him and his needs. Think about it like building a friendship. Begin to understand his communication style so as to integrate him into activities with other Scouts. Find out about his adaptive limits so safety and health issues will be known as you start. Determine the amount of supervision needed. The idea is to keep it to a minimum but not so little that safety becomes a problem. Inappropriate behaviors will happen. Some will need to be ignored but others will make for an opportunity to teach a lesson. It is similar to the interventions that all boys need but for unexpected behaviors and times. Pay attention to him because if there are adaptive deficits, then teaching basics will be needed. Other Scouts can and should help and/or inform you. They may need guidance in learning about his needs. They need to know how they can assist and how they can be a friend when there isn't a need. As much as possible, he needs to become part of the group. The group can integrate, teach, show, and help. The group will also grow through helping, befriending, and making room in their activities for one of their own. It sounds like a full time job but as people adjust, the work lessens. He should be expected to do his best and to do exactly what the requirements ask of him. If he is unable to complete a requirement, then it may be that it does not fit his style of learning or he might not be able to do it at all. That is when careful understanding is needed. A determination should be made about which it is. If he needs an alternate route to learn, then figure out different ways of doing the same thing. His parents will know some but you will also need to figure others. It is fun to do things in different ways, try it. Other Scouts should help to figure alternate routes. Boys have imagination and insights that most of us have long ago forgotten. Reducing fears of the diagnosis/differences is important. He is very much like other Scouts in many ways. You will begin to accept the differences as you become more familiar with him. Treat him like you do the others in as many situations as possible. His parents should volunteer to assist while he acclimates and integrates into the unit. They need to stand back as much as possible. They can help to teach others about his needs as much as help with their son in specific circumstances. Allot of good things have been written here on this topic but I thought maybe you might find something useful from my experience also. FB

If the Uniform stays on the boy too long, the fabric binds to the skin and nothing will take it out. It is known as one of the Methods of Scouting. I have had one since the fifties. FB

I have a bunch of knots, beads, patches, etc. Sewing them on became a hassle and I quit doing it. I was out of Scouting for a while and I noticed that after I returned that I could only wear two shirts and both were bare. Also, I lost a couple of knots in the move that I had not sewen on my shirt. I tried several pairs of my pants and found that I could wear my shorts. The other day I wore those shorts. It was winter and all I could think of was all of the long pants that were too tight hanging my the closet. I got mad at myself for gaining weight. I am now changing my diet and beginning to change my activity schedule. After I reclaim my pants, I might consider looking for the lost knots, tearing some off of the older shirts and sewing on a few. I am also hoping that someone will listen to me when I can finally wear pants again. FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

Hunt, You make good sense by differentiating what constitutes a religion. It still appears to me that the BSA wants its membership to individually embrace their own personal religion/god but since the organization cannot embrace all religions, it therefore cannot be considered religious and must be a non-sectarian business. Prairie, If your CO is a UUF struggling with sponsoring a Boy Scout Unit, it needs to reflect on its own policy on inclusion. If they begin to exclude those that have some aspect of their system that they dont agree with, then there is really no stopping. I am unsure of which group can pass a test of being non offensive. Pack, I agree that there wasnt a fuss. I also agree that the rule of diminishing returns applies to working in positions other than those close to the unit. Charles Darwins law of Natural Selection is one of the stellar achievements of science. He was studying for the ministry at Christs Church in Cambridge prior to his start. I suppose he struggled with some of these same issues. Good point Merlyn. I still believe that their policy double binds them as they wrestle with change. FB

My point was that the BSA has evolved, if you note again the dated sequence of their statements about religion. It a legal maneuver for defense. It could be said that the BSA is learning as they get to know themselves. It reflects the change that has occurred within. The frustration of Hunt when he noted the lack of clarity in the policy on religion is one indication that; if the statement of belief is too complex, then it cannot withstand the public test of acceptance. BP wrote the Scout Law and James West added the last three points, the last being reverent. Tradition is on trial. In this forum of opinion, I reserve the right to be wrong. FB

I left out the judge's opinion because the BSA doesn't care about it. They do not want to be "painted into a corner by their own words" because they most likely dont care about that either. They would rather appear to be a victim of a bad decision. They are allowing public opinion decide who is right. It also appears that the publicity generated from these inconveniences has worked in the favor of the BSA. You are also mistaken about my opinion. I am not attempting to represent the BSA and my opinion carries even less weight than even you suppose. Avoiding reality by way of explanation is not the correct definition of my position. The BSA has never allowed me any in or output. FB

Hunt, There is a difference between a global statemment aimed at the world and a statement that is intended for those in the BSA. The BSA is directing their statement to those in the BSA. It is not saying that everyone else in the world cannot be a good citizen. Global statements are made by those believeing in absolutes and that state that all that do not believe in one thing will be banished forever. (I challenge you to an absurdity match.) Merlyn, Note the yearly progression of your quotes. (*rearranged) "It's no secret we have a duty to God," said Walker, from Boy Scouts of America headquarters in Irving, Tex. "We're not a religion, but we are a religious organization." Washington Post 1995 "Although Boy Scouts of America is not a religious sect, it is religious, and, while the local council is not a house of worship like a church or a synagogue, it is a religious organization." BSA 1998 legal Brief On October 21, 2003, Greg Shields, a national spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America, said this to Fox News: "The Boy Scouts are not a religious organization. We cannot be described as a religious organization or a religion." The BSA does not claim to be a religious organization and would not admit to painting themselves into a corner.- Fuzzy Bear- Scouters Forum 2/07/05. FB

Pack, I do not defend the BSA but moreover attempt to explain by way of my understanding of their policy. It is their policy. The BSA has not asked me once in all of my experience with them about what I would like for them to do and I doubt ever will. I admire their ability to write a policy that appears to have substance, yet appeals to the core of so many to define and find God. Clarity is not the intent of such a statement because the appeal to perspective members and members is to their nature, so a rewrite is presently out of the question. (*The Republicans recently used a similar strategy to their advantage.) The small step you are asking of them is not inconsequential. It has to do with tradition and the word(s) in the Law and the Oath. It has to do with the acceptability of a large portion of their supporters within and outside the organization. It is also tied inextricably to the belief system of members that interpret their religion and their life with absolutes. Change will eventually occur but not until the social fabric changes and that is the small step that must happen first. The BSA does not claim to be a religious organization and would not admit to painting themselves into a corner. Rather, it asks that its members bring their personal religion with them when joining the organization, remain neutral while implementing the program and have it quietly in the background while achieving the BSAs goals. It also allows for religious groups use of the program while openly engaging in their religious practices, a kind of in-house openness. One must appreciate the curious adaptation to religion that the BSA asks and allows of its members. Leaving the religious issue to ones own conscience is actually what the BSA does but it is tied to a belief in God. The issue of God will continue to separate us from many that would otherwise be of support to the organization. The issue of God will also bring many to the organization that are useful. Reversing the situation by eliminating the issue of God, would reverse the situation and make membership for many untenable. The question of unification is tied to the social fabric, tradition, and the ideals; all barriers not easily breached. I believe I understand your sympathy for those that are on the outside but most are good citizens with character and are fit but achieved those goals a different way. Try as we may, leaving this life in glory is futile. Attempting to do ones best while alive is a most worthy goal. FB

Hunt, Disagreement and opinion are closely associated but are only spelled differently. I fear any attempt at agreement on this issue will stretch well beyond these 11 pages without so much as an approximation of a final answer. So, my response is not in any way an attempt to convince you of a different position but more of a clarification of mine, just in case we happen to agree but neither of us knew it. The Boy Scouts do not compare or disparage religions or gods. Their general statement about religion/God is like asking somebody if they believe in popcorn. Most can say yes even if they dislike it. Or, their statement is so general, that the Port a Potty god would acceptable, if one were to view it is a higher power. The Founding Fathers knew full well the problems that religion had caused in their own lives and met the establishment with a new rule of freedom of religion or from religion. My own hero, Thomas Jefferson simply cut out the parts of the Bible that didn't meet with his approval. It was his expression of aligning his personal beliefs with his life. Most today keep their book in tact but ignore the parts that give distress, so in comparison he could be trusted. As far as the BSA recognizing some of the Founding Fathers, that has never been a BSA action toward any person at any time. They inform the person about their organization and their view. They do not judge anyone or their beliefs but if the person is to join they must have a belief in a God/Higher Power, so the recognition and the choice come from the individual not the organization. The view or the mission or the intent of the BSA statement is that God is an important element in becoming a good citizen for those that become Scouts. The BSA does not try to put forth their view as a public standard in how to become a good citizen. It is not global. It is meant for those that voluntarily decide to join the BSA. The BSA stands as far away from comparing religious imperatives as possible and does it quite well without a rewrite, IMO. FB

You have that Whoopee cushion kind of humor that so few find amusing these days. How about a spy glass that can look right through clothing, a bubblegum snapper, or a hand buzzer? I'll bet you have a tie lifter or a flower that squirts. I raise a fake glass of liquid to you. FB

One issue of concern is the hesitation or doubt in some of the statements. The silent statement is, Why does a grown man without a boy in the Troop want to be in Scouting?" Just a few years ago, this kind of skepticism was not as evident. Today, there is a constant undercurrent in the news of adults taking advantage of kids. The Catholic Church is still having repercussions from their lack of vigilance. For a period of time in Scouting, there was a rash of lawsuits and large settlements over the same things. The push for Two-Deep leadership came only after several incidents. Youth Protection is now a standard part of the training. People are more guarded and ready to question motive without action. Many are weary of thinking about it but are still looking over their shoulders. Nobody wants such a problem in their unit and it is scary. How do we effectively deal with this issue? It starts with making every person aware of the problem by training both adults and Scouts. Two-deep leadership is mandatory for every event and interaction. Parents are recruited to be either Assistants or to be part of the committee. People that take advantage of kids want to be left alone to do their deeds. When there are responsible adults around, it makes it difficult for bad things to happen. I know some units complain that they barley have enough leaders for two-deep leadership. Only having two leaders in a unit is a danger sign and should be the time that people act/Recruit. If parents refuse for good reasons, then people in the community need to be asked. Units need responsible adults and they need support. The safeguards are now in place and should always be used and maintained. There will continue to be problems but awareness can reduce the impact and limit the incidence. This brings us back to the young lawyer. A unit does not need 21 ASMs but 21 is better than 1. Their unit might need another committee member and if so, then there could be 21 on it also. With that many adults around, it would make it difficult for any adult to be alone with any Scout for any reason. We should also think first about the resources that a person can bring to the unit before we send them off. In the Troop that I lead, we had as many adults as Scouts but all for different reasons (and resources) and not all were registered. We still had our problems but the problems were all issues that our Unit Committee could safely and properly resolve. Awareness through training and action was the key to us having a quality program in every way. FB

People get upset at these things because their son is defeated and the winner usually looks like a professional job (Dad done it all) type car. The inequity of the loss is maintained with plenty of talk around the track after the defeat. Although some contend that a car straight from the box on race day is the secret to success that has not been my experience. I have seen Mom and Pop operations that have had a string of victories over the years. The oldest son won and then the next and the next and so on. The race is everything to the parents and it is the only time of the year they appear. They leave a wake of tears behind them with all of those would be's. I suppose crushing little kids with their superior knowledge and ability is their way of finding success in life. Many in the Pack were elated when that particular crew finally reached the last purpose of Cub Scouting. I told a group of parents once that Scouting taught kids how to lose. Even now, as I reflect on that statement; I find it kind of amusing and not what I was trying to say. I meant that Sportsmanship is one purpose in Cub Scouting. That means that a Scout tries to do his best. It does not mean that he will always win. It means that what he carries away from the event is the lesson. Here are some lessons to pick from: People that cheat will win so, I must cheat to win. People that get expert help will win, so I must rely on others to do all of my work for me. I enjoyed working on my car and I got closer to my parents in the process. I learned some new skills today about how to cut, sand and paint. After the derby, my parents and I went for ice cream. Some of the cars were really neat looking, next year I have an idea about making one that looks like an animal. Why are some cars fast and some are slow. I want to know the dynamics of force and momentum. (*this one is for the nerd within) So, what I am trying to say is work on your son's car with him but also prepare your lesson plan. There can be something very important to be learned. FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

Dr. J. I rise with my sons 3 and 1. Going to bed late allows for clean up and writing; the 1 year old wakes at 3 or 4 or 5 and I follow. After he returns to bed, I start the day. I guess you know how Pres. Clinton earned his dog award... This country of reds and blues mostly has good hearts, although there is always room for improvement. As for those who talk it but can't walk it, their fear is greater than their depth of love. The shallows prevent them from seeing the distant goal. mhagar wanted a grass roots challenge for change and complained bitterly that most us of were content sitting on it. The BSA does not consult its membership on their views for change or they havent asked me in the last 40 years. Change is inevitable but not immediate when tradition stands in the way. In my church, I am comfortable sitting in the pews with the sinners because that is where we are supposed to be. Segregated religions limit their catch by casting out those that dont meet their standards. Their judgment is based on the kind of god(s) they worship. They dont consult me either. Life without contradictions would not be normal. As far as being duty bound to adhere to a policy, it does not prevent me from the freedom of thought and of personal belief. I know from experience that this program (BSA) helps to change many of the young men into better young citizens. The belief in a Higher Power is something that I personally adhere to and know can change rock into heart. Morals are without a doubt a force that brings us in direct contact with how best to live in peace. I am thankful for the BSA and I am glad to be a part of it. It is not perfect and does not postulate absolute truth. It merely points us in a good direction. It leaves absolutes to the church and to those that know about such things. If the BSA turned its back on mhagar, it was not without an informed choice. He was also not asking to be understood but for immediate change. Many here disagreed with him because their belief system did not align with his. That was personal. His fight is not here but with the tradition. He was asking to change the institution and the morals that have become part of it for almost a century. This is not the place to try and win that proposal. The lions will win every time. Barry, Thank you for your compliment. There are so few floating around that my first inclination is to question. Getting closer to God a stand alone goal of intent and practice. Kindness is something so recognizable that I doubt it could ever be hidden. You are right about Scouting being boy sized. The young man that wrote your referral letter was highly impressed with how you approached Scouting and your life. I was once canned from a teaching job that I dearly loved because they decided to do away with unnecessary classes, mine being one worthy of such note. A young lady that had been in my class two years before wrote the Governor and complained. She felt that what she had learned exceeded the sum of the total. There is little justice in life but that is one that will remain written. A failure to appreciate is actually a failure to get closer to God, so I know your location. FB

If you were to use several Scouts to expound any particular list, the Church leader would not have to be worried about the loss of time during the service. Cub Scouting has a list of Purposes. If you did nothing more than read the list and tell everyone that is the direction of your CS unit, as in a North Star analogy, you would not take much time, you would suffer little pain, and you would make your point. Keep in mind that even if you are new, you will see your Scouts arriving at their destination and it will fully convince you of the validity of this program. That will hopefully give you the kind of courage it takes to overcome the demons of the stage. FB

Most of us in the BSA have a blind prejudice that there is only one way to good citizenship, character development, and physical fitness. We fail to appreciate the millions of other good citizens all around us that make up America and the world that have these same qualities but achieved them in numerous other ways. and yes, Clinton was awarded the silver dog award. FB

Morals can be with or without a Higher Power. Religion can be with or without morals, depending on your perspective. A non-member can believe in a Higher Power and have morals and can also become the best kind of a citizen but the BSA cannot speak for them. A non-member that recognizes only morals can be the best kind of a citizen but the BSA cannot speak for them. A non-member that recognizes only a Higher Power can still be the best kind of citizen but the BSA cannot speak for them. A non-member that does not believe in either of the two may have a great deal of difficulty in becoming the best kind of citizen but it is possible and the BSA is not speaking for them. The BSA recognizes morals and a Higher Power combined in its statement. The BSA recognizes that a MEMBER can grow into the best kind of a citizen by adhering to both of these principles in general. It is not a deprecating or a comparative statement but a view and/or a mission of intent. Although for a Port-a-Potty believer to meet the BSA criteria he must have faith in a higher power, such as, a commode god that flushes. Now, let the dog roll over.... FB

Time, After I reread your post on the Troop leaders decision based on your son not being able to stand at attention during the pledge, I was amazed at the Troop leader's decision. There has to be something else that your son did. After years of being around Scouts of all ages and circumstances, I don't believe that we have ever countered such a problem with such a harsh reaction. The leaders must be Leadership Impaired to have not first counseled with your son to see what could be done. Eliminating somebody from participation based on what you said is an overreaction or outright fear. I have worked with ADD/ADHD kids in high school classes and worked with them while they attended college classes and have yet had one that I had to send home. Counsel, yes. Correct, yes but 100% were able to take and act on the spoken word. Unless there is another problem, that has not been stated FB

Dr. J., Well reasoned opinions are not all that we have here. It takes little more than a subtle vapor trail of some tale of Absolute Truth to set us upon arguments long ago pondered by those that died defending them in similar circumstance and then left behind for others like us to "reason" out. Like you, we could no more find a greater truth than if it were stapled to our foreheads and looked at by us in the mirror. Unlike your defense, when the dog grunts it is but a battle cry for more of the same. FB

Over the years, I have heard many stories just like yours from individuals in Packs, Troops, and from people in District jobs. This sounds harsh but it is not your job to save a 68 year old Pack or any unit. Lifeguard is not a Leadership position or an assigned duty in Scouting. If there is a group that wants to work together and if there is a CO that would like to help support it, and if there are parents that want to be part of a committee and lead dens, then you may have a job but don't take two jobs, just one job. Work with a group that will take the other jobs. Don't work alone. It is not fun and you will just run back here to complain bitterly of how you are doing all by yourself. The world will still be a nice place to live tomorrow without a unit that nobody cares to be a part of, even if you think otherwise and I am sure you do. I don't expect that you will take this advice because your mind is probably made up about going it alone. After you do it and it gets frustrating, just remember that Scouting is a volunteer job that is meant to be a shared past-time. Later, you can still find plenty of units that could use your assistance and be fun. I hope the very best for you. FB

PS, In the Church of Thermodynamics, the second law would preclude a higher power, therefore leaving Merlyn with only a personal moral code. A personal moral code is to be respected and appreciated but it does not fit the definition that is required to be a member in the BSA. FB

Here's the Rule: One person, one job. If you do anything more than that, you will be giving less than what is needed. If you still want to do something useful, then help Recruit. But you say, "I can run two Dens because I know how and I have the time". Good, then Recruit and Train somebody else. But you say, "That is too harsh, somebody will not get the program". Then get some training on how to Recruit and ask for help to Recruit. Apparently your husband has time to Recruit also. This program is meant to be a Shared Leadership experience not a One Person Band. You might also believe that somehow you are saving the world by doing a big job (meaning, two or more jobs) nobody else will do. So what happens by taking the other positions yourself, the Unit still drowns but it just take a little longer. Another way to look at the same thing is that the job that nobody wants to do is Recruit and Train another person. The most important job in Scouting is Recruiting. It is the way to deliver the Program to the boys. Anything less is POOR LEADERSHIP and a rational that always leads to unnecessary problems. Most all of us have been down the road of wearing more than one hat. We think we look pretty good doing it but the quality of the work generally stinks. We always hope nobody can smell. FB

I returned to my Troop after the first weekend and I wore my green Woodbadge neckerchief. I could tell the boys were somber because they knew something had changed their SM. When I completed my Ticket and wore the regalia, it happened again. It was a silent tribute and I appreciated their respect. I didn't know there was a rule governing it but the effects of wearing it deepened the change that had happened within me. FB

I built my first car as a Den Chief. I got beat. I built my second car as a Den Leader and I got beat. I built my third car as an Assistant CM and I got beat. I built my fourth car as a UC and I still got beat. I don't mean "just" beat but soundly beat every single time. I asked about the secrets and tried them but nothing worked. I am not sure what I am doing wrong but I have that inborn ability to get soundly trounced at every PWD. The youngest Scout and the oldest Dad seem to have it over me no matter what I do. I design each car with a theme and then I cut and whittle, sand and paint, so I have developed a fair talent for whittling. I got pretty good at it and I have been making my own neckerchief slides now for several years. I am presently planning on making a small PWD slide to commerate the "worst in class". I tend to wear it well. But next year, just maybe... What I have learned: I know that throwing the car together at the last minute doesn't work. I know that paint must dry for at least 24 hours. I know that weight and weight distribution is important. I know that balance is a good thing. I know that gluing the wheels is essential. I know that figuring it all out afterwards won't work unless you write it down. I also know that some people have an ability that I lack and may never have but thats what makes the world a great place. I don't have an answer to the problem of cheating. It doesn't bode well for the Motto or the Promise or any of the Ideals of Scouting. It is definitely a chance to learn the difference between right and wrong. It is a chance to understand that some will do anything to get ahead. It is good insight into the world around us. It is also an opportunity to learn about our own self and what we believe and what our abilities are. It is in those moments of defeat that gives us pause to get to know ourselves. Some that win may really have ability and we need to understand and appreciate it. There are those that cheat and win and we need to understand what that is all about. We need to know that lesson especially well. We will have plenty of time an opportunities to make decisions that are based on that very thing in our lives. What will we do when nobody is looking? How will we act and react when somebody does cheat? It is important. The Ideals of Scouting are at our doorstep at such times. FB