fotoscout

I have to wonder if this would lead us to a one program fits all philosophy. We know that not all boys like the same program, AND, that not all leaders are capable of pulling off the BS program as its laid out in the books.

So where would we end up. A two tiered system? With one tier, acting as a cookie cutter duplicate of the next, and the other tier functioning like many troops do today, doing there best to put on a worthwhile program that the boys like.

Face it, Cub Scout Leaders and Parents would not bring their boys to non-Certified units. So, all of the non-Certified units would ultimately go away. I believe thats a bad thing.

I would be more in favor of going the other way; pull the charter of units that have strayed too far, and are not providing a program that looks anything like the BS program. Units that take it upon themselves to rewrite the entire book (well almost the entire book). In the big picture I think this would be more beneficial than Certifying Units.

We also have the Quality Unit system that could be reworked to help in this area.

Just my 2 cents.

I am not advocating against the BSA selection process, I have no doubt that it is effective for some people some of the time. Actually our new CM and CC, could well be attributed to this process. Not because we invoked the process, but because I, let me say that again, I, know the people and Im involved in the program beyond the 1 hour a week that most people put in. Yes this is an I thing, its about foto, because no one else cared to get it done before the outgoing people leave the Pack. The general sentiment was that someone always steps up to do the job, with an unspoken suggestion that it would be one of the existing leaders taking on still another responsibility. Since last May I tried to get these guys involved in getting replacements, they gave me not so much as a word. Yes, its in character with how theyve run there piece of the program and Im not surprised, but it does point out some of what happens in a real world Cub Scout Pack.

Our outgoing leaders took no interest in developing or selecting, or even in discussing their own replacements. In fact our outgoing leaders had virtually no contact with anyone outside of the outgoing Web II den. So, even if they wanted to, they would be at a complete loss to be involved with a selection process.

As for Eamonns situation; the selection process works differently at the District and Council level. For starters, you have a much larger pool of candidates, candidates who have already shown a willingness to be involved in the program. Most are probably already doing multiple jobs. Even then, Eamonn went through 10 individuals before he found someone willing to take the position. Most Packs and Troops dont have 10 people to cycle through as you fill each job.

Now we come to Ownership of the Unit. As Ive said in this forum many times before, I think the concept of the CO owning the unit is more technical / legal that it is real. Our CO has no interest in being involved with the unit activities, or the selection of leaders. I find this to be the case in every unit that I come in contact with. The COs pool of adults is not a resource for leaders. By and large, with an overwhelming majority the leaders we have today in Cub Scouts are parents of the Scouts, not good people from the CO who want to volunteer in the BSA program.

The next piece of this is how you would go about selecting Tiger or Wolf leaders. In all likelihood no one has much or any knowledge of these potential leaders. Its a free for all, starting with those who have shown an interest in becoming leaders.

So we come back to motivating the parents to step up. We didnt coerce or threaten anyone. However I would agree that they probably shuttered with a reality check, when I told them that there would be no CS program for their children without adequate adult leadership.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

It all depends on how often you use the flowers trick!!!!

This is a tough decision for conscientious well meaning people. As a Webelos I leader, you already have one foot out the door. Additionally any parents that you might bring along will also have older boys in the pack. Ideally you want to have Tiger/Wolf parents step up.

My unit is just going thru this. They asked if I would be the CM, I said no. But, I was fortunate to have someone who would step up to the position. It happened to be one of my parents who have a younger son at home who will be a Tiger in two years. So next year while we are Web II, the dad will get his feet wet as the CM with my help, then the following year his younger son will be a Tiger. Sometimes you have to seriously take stock of the situation, and closely look at the families you have in the pack.

As for recruiting adults, some here in the forum are adamant about selecting adults via the published BSA process. We havent found that to work very well. In four years weve only developed one contact leader via this process. My unit and others in this area have taken to a more direct approach. In effect we corner the parents and tell them that the program needs adult volunteers. Folks if you want a CS program for your son, some of you will have to step forward. We have been successful with this approach, although we have had a couple of false starts with two adults. This approach is not an easy thing to do, everyone is uncomfortable with it. Me too! The key to making it work, is being able to have the discussion without coming across as being to bitter because no one stood up to volunteer in the first place. So take a deep breath, compose yourself, and go for it.

Some of us dont want to feel like takers, so we give as much as we possibly can. In the end something suffers. To often in this program to few of us are doing too many jobs. The result is that the kids get shortchanged. Its only December, spend a little more time working on this before you commit.

Ed,

Maybe its semantics, but our Webelos competed right alongside the BS's. It was not a separate competition held in a different arena at a different time. So YES they participated with the BSs, but they did not compete directly against the BSs, they competed against other Webelos.

The only thing I was disappointed with was that it appeared, that although the Webelos Leaders had all made prior arrangements with a Troop, none of the Troops seemed to take ownership of their Webelos. In troops where patrol cooking was done, the Webelos ate with the leaders. In Troops where group cooking was done, the Webelos just lined up with everyone else. The Boy Scouts themselves seemed to have little interest in the Webelos being present. When the weather turned bad, none of the Troops came to help out their Webelos. This was a big problem for some, and turned out to be big loser for some troops! One Webelos Leader was so fed up with his Troop that he will be going elsewhere with his boys in April.

From my perspective it was a great outing for my Webelos. They got to see the Troop set up for a campout. They played with a few of the BS's. They got underfoot while the older boys were cooking. But most importantly (to them)was that they got to compete and win something at a Camporee. They don't split hairs about who the competion was like we do.

Ed,

Webelos are allowed at Camporees and they are welcome to spend the night. The restriction is that there needs to be parallel programs for them. They cannot compete with the BS's, for obvious reasons. But they can compete along side the BS's in a parallel program.

As for camping in a separate area, this is really a no brainier. They need to be separated from the mass of BS's at the Camporee. For our last Camporee that meant the BS unit were set up in the open field. The Webeolos were setup along one edge of the field. There was enough space that there was a clear separation of the BS's and Webelos.

The key here is to have get the Troop to recognize that these Webelos are with them, even though they are not in the same campsite.

Gungho, Im sorry you feel that way.

Ive followed your posts. Its certainly impressive that youve proactively gone to training and come up to speed on all the available BSA literature. However, a little temperance with respect to your implementation of what youve learned would have gone a long way.

Youve been upset with almost every aspect of your packs program. Instead of working with your den, you stepped out of the process. Every unit has history, radical changes to that history most often result in colossal failure. If youve follow much of what written in this forum, you will have noticed that most of us are very concerned about preventing gross course corrections, and prefer a number of slight course corrections over time.

Im sure that you have some very good by the book ideas and concepts. But you cant implement them in a single swoop, and expect the unit to thrive. It just doesnt work that way. People arent wired to respond positively to that type of change. By the way, just because it's in the book it doesn't mean that it will work for your unit. The books and literature represent an ideal program. Sure we all try to get there, but everyone has to first deal with their own situation and membership community. Some units will never have uniforms because they just can't afford them, some packs will never go camping, and some units will never have a single boy bridge to Boy Scouts.

Temperance, patience, and multiple small course corrections will get you where you want to be. If those are not qualities that you possess, then start your own unit. You can build it from scratch, using the model that you envision for a Cub Scout Pack.

As for the Tiger Program, it is certainly better than Ivory Soap. In my pack 70% of the Wolves, Bears, and Webelos were Tigers in our Pack. Sure there is a large turnover of Tigers, there are many competing activities for boys of that age, and particularly as they move from 1st to 2nd grade there are even more competing activities. Time and history have shown us that the Tiger Program can succeed with many different types of people leading it. It can thrive with exceptional leadership. But in all cases the key quality that the adult leader must have is an ability to Play Nice with the other adults.

If it's a Scouting function, you wear the uniform. End of discussion.

However, I have been to two Eagle Courts of Honor recently where the new Eagle was either the Scoutmasters son or an ASM/UC/WB-Staffer's son. In both cases the dads were wearing a suit and not their uniform. Normally, these two guys are always in uniform. Is there a protocol here that I am not aware of?

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

Yes you are!

First and foremost everyone has a life. Being conscientious about your Scouting responsibilities is amiable, but remember you and everyone else have more pressing responsibilities every day.

Scouting is full of rules and guidelines, by following them blindly without forethought and local input, you are apt to get yourself in a whole hill of trouble. Youve already done that.

Your fellow Tiger Parents, now your former fellow Tiger Parents, seem to be following part of the program by sharing leadership. You seem to have made yourself such an obstacle that they are avoiding you. Remember, you gave up the Leadership position because of your own inability to build a consensus.

Its unfortunate that three days notice isnt adequate for you, but thats what it is. Accept it or get outyou got out. Next month it might be a weeks notice, or one days notice. So be it, we are all different.

So what, they changed the meeting location. The location doesnt matter, what matters is that the meeting will go on! There will be a meeting. As for the Space place, maybe someone knows better. Maybe the program really isnt appropriate for Tiger aged kids, as a group. Or, maybe they save this trip for when the boys are a little older? But you didnt have a dialog you had an exchange of words.

My suggestion would be for you to be a Tiger Parent this year. While doing that, pay particular attention to the group dynamic of the adults. Watch the techniques that work and the ones that dont.

Slow down and enjoy the ride. Type As without a ton of self control dont do well in Scouting, or any other group activity.

Good Luck.

Be careful about mailing a note to all the parents. Praise in public, reprimand in private. You don't want to highlight the behavioral problems of a few to all the parents. You certainly wouldn't want your own childs shortcomings broadcast throughout the community. Give the parent the oppurtunity to work with his son. Trust that the parent will conduct himself properly and direct the boy accordingly. Maybe you can help the parent grow up as well.

Splitting the den is of course the best solution, but that is not always possible. No one wants to see the boys asked to leave the den, BUT, you have 12 other boys (and families) that are looking for you to conduct a worthwhile program. How often is the Promise of Scouting and the expectations of parents diminished because WE failed to do the right thing or make the hard decision that is truly in the interest of everyone.

I am finding more and more that the problems we end up with are the result of our desire to always be the nice guy. We have become so enamored with serving everyone that often we end up serving no one. Sometimes our well intentioned decisions end up creating larger problems downstream.

The problem with these behaviors is that they are disruptive and contiguous. You only have one hour (or so) to conduct your meeting. If it takes longer because of disruptions, you will inevitably lose the attention of all the boys.

This is a perfect opportunity for you to show the parents that you understand the Cub Scout Program. First, explain to them the Den is larger than it should be. Because it is larger, behavior becomes a more critical issue with respect to your ability to Bring the Program to the boys. Second, explain to the parent that Little Johnny is just too much for you to control, you need help with him if this is going to work for all the boys. As the DL you have to be concerned with your ability to bring a good and meaningful program to all the boys! Therefore, Mr. Little Johnny, you will have to work with me by being at your childs side throughout each meeting. When he acts out, I would like you to either calm him quickly or take him out of the room for few minutes. My apologies, but it just isnt going to work if we dont work together to make some constructive changes. I want this to be a positive experience for everyone, including your Little Johnny and it wont be positive for Little Johnny if I am constantly focusing attention on him and his behaviors.

You could even ask those parents to become Assistant Den Leaders. You will need to do this with privately with each parent.

Of course you could go the other direction, and tell them that too many of the boys need extra time and that you just cant do justice to the program with the current arrangement. A second Den must be formed, otherwise you will choose the boys that you wish to continue with, and recommend the others to a different Pack. Yes, I knowthis is a radical response.

In a smaller group its easier to deal with the behaviors, but unfortunately as the den gets larger, the problems are magnified. Remember, we are neither experts nor professionals in this area. Youre a working stiff, or stay home mom trying to do the best you can. Scouting should be fun for you too!

I understand that here are District and Council Level Training programs available. Unforturnatly we've never been able to pull it off.

Ask your Council Training Chair about it.

There has been great debate about how much time the whole ticket writing process consumes during the course. I think its great that people are at least thinking about their tickets before starting the course.

Maybe it would be wise to give these people some information about ticket writing before the course starts. At least this way their energies would be channeled in the right direction.

During my course we spent huge blocks of time writing and rewriting tickets. All that time could have been put to much better use. Maybe these guys are on to something?

Jman, welcome to the forum!

Nationally PTA has instructed its local organizations to stop chartering BSA units. The issue is fear of liability. If there is a more complete answer, maybe someone else here can fill us all in. Personally I think PTA has become so lame that it may as well go away. But thats another story.

Across the country there are units that are chartered just like yours. Organizations like: Friends of Pack 200, East Overshoe Scouting Organization, and the Scouting Union of Easy Township, have been set up to Charter BSA units. Its not the norm, nor should it be, but it works, and should be OK with your Council. If your UC has a problem with it, ask for a detailed reason why. If his answer is unacceptable then go to your DE.

In any event this may just be a push for you to go out and find a "real" CO.(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

I have one. Information overload. Lots of stuff to look at and fiddle with! Yes it's a little heavy but the rubber bumpers do keep it safe.

Instead of carrying a novel with you, Id suggest that you bring along the manual that comes with the compass. It makes "fascinating" reading and will keep you occupied for many hours.

I did Whittling Chip with my boys last year when they were Bears. Although some of the boys are always less mature than others, I would by no means say that they were not ready for this.

They did a terrific job of learning the safety principles and of respecting their knives. Mom and Dad are of course the final authority when it comes to carrying a knife, but if Mom says no, its no.

I think it was very stupid to put knives into the prize selection. Mom and Dad tell little Johnny its ok to select a knife as his Cub Scout Popcorn prize, then the Cubmaster hands out the prizes at Pack Night, and has to tell little Johnny that he has to wait 1,2, or 3 years until he can carry and use his new knife. Its hypocritical at the least, down right stupid and embarrassing at the most.

By the way, Id like to know what little Tiger Cub thought he was going to do with a big knife??

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. The same goes for adult leaders. Training doesnt insure that your den will be successful. Its always about leadership, this time its adult leadership.

Sure there is supposed to be shared leadership, but there is also a Den Leader, and that persons job is to present the program.

If the parents dont want to behave, then use the sign and stop the meeting. Remind everyone that the boys learn from the behaviors that they see, and in cub Scouts everyone even the parents show respect. When its time to be quiet and listen, everyone needs to be quiet and listen, Parents too!! Dont be afraid to use these words, the parents expect you to be the leader. Be one!

If youre going to walk the walk, you have to talk the talk. Tell the parents what behavior you expect from them. Tell them how the program works. Tell that in order for the program to work they have to participate.

Well for starters, Daisys start in Kindergarten, and Tigers start in First Grade. Thats only one year difference.

There are very real reasons why parents need to be with the Tigers. The first and simplest reason is that the Tiger Program, like all of Cub Scouts but more so, is a family based program. The intent is to have the boy and his family be involved in the program. You are not supposed to leave the meeting and forget about Scouts until the next meeting. You should be doing some CS activity with your son in between meetings.

Next are the boys and the leader. The overwhelming majority of leaders have no professional training, experience, or knowledge about how to handle a group of 6 year old boys. Especially when the group size is trending upward and parental discipline is trending downward. Add to it, an untrained leader and you have a recipe for disaster. Boys this age are for the most part still short circuited. Even one hour can be an eternity after the boys have had a few weeks to become comfortable with each other.

Now we get to the parents themselves. Some of what should be happening in a good Tiger Den is the nurturing of new leaders. If the parents arent at the meetings, there is less of chance that they will become leaders in the future. The parents should be getting an education about Scouting in the process.

And finally, there is the ever present liability issue. BSA says that the parents should be there! If you elect to do it differently and have a problem, BSA will not stand behind you. You are now in a heap of big trouble!!!!!

If you could pick an choose your Tigers, and limit the size of your den you could probalby make it work from the boys perspective. But in reality you can't do either of those things. So your best to stick with the program.

I don't quite know what your point is here, but very simply stated, little girls are wired differently than little boys.

You need to take this up with your Committee Chair and, if you have a realationship with your Charter Org. take it up with them as well

Wow, a lot going on here.

First, 7 year old boys do not respond to boy leadership. Your son can certainly be a helper to the den leader, but a leaderNO. This is socially not a good idea for your son or anyone elses. Boys this age look to adults for leadership. Cub Scouts is no place for 7 year olds to experiment with leadership.

Your meetings seem to be all screwed up! Dens in the Pack can meet at the same time, in the same location, but they should meet separately. They should conduct their own gathering activity, opening, program activity, and closing. You cant have a Pack meeting every week! If the dens are meeti

I think that there are plenty of success stories out there.

They all boil down to leadership. The first thing I did with my Tigers was to have a meeting with the parents, no kids. We talked about the program, what the requirements were, when we would meet, AND, I passed around that ubiquitous piece of paper for the parents to sign up for an achievement. They went home with a schedule, and an understanding that they would be a part of the program. No parent, no kid! I had meetings every other week, (some were den meetings and some were go see its), and kept the meeting to 1 hour. Difficult as it was, the parents were not allowed to coffee klach during the meeting. They had to work with their son. Each meeting was planned out, and the parents recognized that from the beginning. We focused on the den portion of the achievements, and then electives. These parents understood that I had taken the time to learn the program, and thats what we were going to do. We were not going to have fotos version of a play date every other week. I started that year with 18 boys, and finished with 17. Sixteen of them were back as Wolves, and I still have 12 of the original boys with me today.

On the first day I asked myself, What should this meeting look like?. I continue to ask myself the same question today. If the meeting looks like a Cub Scout meeting then it will be successful. On course I am not talking about men and boys in uniforms, Im talking about meeting structure, cadence, focus, and choreography.

The biggest problem I see with Tigers is leadership. We let our newest, untrained, most naive adults run this program. Most often, without a lot of oversight from more experienced leaders.

I think it is unrealistic to depend on existing pack leadership to perpetuate the Tigers year after year. It might work for one group of leaders but next year the leadership will change and it might not work for them.

It would be great if the Pack lays out (on paper, not requiring participation of the existing leadership), say 3 or 4 months worth of program for the new Tiger Leaders. After that, the Tiger leaders are on their own. During that time it should be mandatory that the Tiger leaders get trained.

Although Im still not sure that the boys get very much out of the Tiger program, it has potential to be a great bonding experience for people who are serious about the BSA program, when it is done right.

One last thing, certain death can be guaranteed, by allowing the boys to run wild while waiting for someone else to bring them under control. You are the leader, you are the one tasked with controlling the boys. The parents expect this to be a controlled experience for the boys, they do not expect a free for all that lasts 60 minutes.

Im confused, what are we talking about Pack meetings or Den meeting?? Or do you not have separate den meetings???

EagleInKY, is correct. This is Cub Scouts, not Boy Scouts. The boys do not have the ability to do what Boy Scouts do.

The fact that you only got going in October isnt bad. Many CS units dont get there act together until October, and dont overlook the fact that its only November now. Thats just one month.

Your kids should not be working on Bobcat materials at Pack night, if that is whats happening. On the other hand, the activity you listed is Pack business that would be appropriate at Pack night.

I am still confused.

There is a whole 75th aniversary packet and CD available from Coucil, ask your DE about it.

Congratulations!!!

Its time to start following the GS thread.