fotoscout

You're too quick to associate work and scouting with money.

Don't forget, we only work one hour a week!

My office computer was so excited to see BW, that yesterday it blew a circuit and had to go to the PC Hospital!

Yes limited authority, in the area of health and safety. However, no Commissioner has or would exercise any authority in the areas Commissioner service to the unit. Would any Commish shut down a unit because the leaders were not trained, or because the unit leader told everyone that the uniform was not necessary. Would a Commish shut down a unit because it did not use the Patrol Method, etc.,etc.,etc. The big flaw in the system is a lack of enforcement. Like the man said, if you want to walk the walk, then you've got to talk the talk. I don't believe that the IH and CR will have the drive or desire to be the enforcer.

Are the boys having fun? The IH and CR answer yes. Are the parents happy? The IH and CR answer yes. Do the adults seem to play nice together? The IH and CR answer yes. They will always side with the leaders and avoid rocking the boat.

Bob I refer you to Newsweek 8/6/01 for some relevant history on the negative result of CO power block and how it can affect not only the program but the worldwide view of BSA. It doesn't matter which camp you're in, it's bad for Scouting. With a formal declaration of more power to the CO's this would only get worse. Yes they already have the power, but we don't need to awaken them into a frenzy.

If you could guarantee CO's with an open mind, no hidden agenda, and global view of the Scouting Movement, I could go along with you. But I don't see that happening.

Many things have caused that relationship to deteriorate....

I agree with your first premise (although I would not place it at #1), but the second would not stand up in my district. We have a moderate turnover of IH, but our CR's are very stable. Clearly, the #1 reason goes to the notorious position that BSA now holds in the American culture. Without question, it is the reason why many of our CO's prefer the background rather than the foreground. Surprisingly, this applies equally to our secular and non secular CO's. Reestablish BSA's public profile and the CO's will reemerge.

I believe that the key to making the Commissioner service work is twofold, 1- get more Commissioners out in the field. To do this we need more adults in scouting, or we have to better utilize the ones we have. Merge the small units and put some of those extra people out in the field as Commissioners. 2- Enforcement: at some point that notoriously bad unit has to be dealt with!

I certainly dont prescribe the goon squad moving in to shut down units because their brand new Tiger Leader isnt trained by Sept 10th. But if National is serious about establishing a more uniform and quality program, if they are serious about getting the Commissioner staff to be more effective, then they have to begin thinking about some type of enforcement at the unit level.(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

I didn't want to imply that BSA should do away with the charter concept. If I did I should have been more clear.

Bob, you are correct that I don't see the benefit of greater CO involvement on the macro scale. But that does not come through a lack of understanding. History has shown us that greater involvement by the CO's , with it's greater influence, has detrimental effects on the larger program. BSA cannot suffer more of that.

Sure it would be great if every CO would live up to it's minimum obligation, and maybe even do a little more for the units. But where does one draw the line between "doing a little more" vs "imposing your value system" on the unit. Those actions are tied together in a quid-pro-quo relationship.

Here is the piece of Commissioner Service that I think is missing. We all know that Commissioners have no authority within the units that they serve. So what outlet is there for the Commissioner to deal with a chronically bad unit. You can go to the DC and get more help, you can go to the IH or CR, but probably they won't do anything. Maybe even go to your DE. So what do you do? We have no way of strong arming these unit back to a quality program.

I suggest that there be a formal notification process telling the unit that it is deficient. The SE should deliver the notice to the Committee with a copy to the IH. The unit either gets it's act together or losses it's charter. You only need to do this once or twice and all the units will step in line.

Commissioners are knocking their heads against the wall every day with the same troublesome units year after year. Without some strong remedy, the cycle will never end. Regardless of what the Commissioner Plan looks like, it's too much to ask for the Commissioners to fix everything and make it right if National continues it's refusal to use strong words and actions.

Pushing the responsibility to the IH and CR will just muddy the waters further. Don't forget the IH and CR will buddy up to the unit leaders before they buddy up to the Commissioner or Professional.

I agree 100% with the concept of mandatory training and that has been my postion right along. The reality of what happens now is more like a game of telephone than a single nationwide program run from the same book.

As for developing a greater reliance on the CO ,I could not object strongly enough. It is the aligned strength of blocks of COs that has put Scouting in the less than enviable position that it now occupies. Putting greater responsibility in the hands of the CO would further polarize BSA, and ultimately make todays problems pale in comparison to what might happen. Bob, I see your Iceberg as an ice cube compared to what might happen if we pushed the COs to take a more active role in the program.

If Commissioners dont come from the ranks of current leaders, or former leaders, then where do they come from? I agree that the current leaders are up to their eyeballs without a Commissioners workload, and that SOME of the former leaders are behind the times, but where else would you get the experience from. A CR with no CS experience would be absolutely no good to a struggling Pack. You catch more bees with honey than vinegar, if the Commissioner is not going to be warm and fuzzy, then hell be cold and bold. Hed be allowed one visit to the unit, and they wont ever invite him back again. If you shift that responsibility to the CR, whom the unit cannot make go away, the unit leaders will simply get fed up with his cold and bold approach and leave the unit or BSA entirely.

If there were more adults in scouting, the selection of Commissioners would be better. Or, if BSA stopped counting units and concerned itself more with numbers of scouts, we could consolidate units and free up some very capable leaders to be Commissioners.

If you're looking for a hard and fast date, you won't find one.

There is nothing wrong with allowing the boys to work on Wolf Arrow points during the Summer. In fact this may be preferred since your participation may be less through the summer months. Then in September, with everyone back from the summer, you can startup with the Bear program.

Your first responsibility is the give the boys every opportunity to earn their Wolf Badge. The Wolf program is fairly simple to get through, most units have completed the requirements by February or March. Then they move on to "the fun stuff".

The first few months I sat back and followed the book to the letter having the boys do the work at home. I think I have finally got my parents to understand that they have to work with the boys.

I would advise caution with this approach. It Scouting becomes too much work, the boys, and parents will find other fun things to occupy their time with.

The best piece of advise I see here is for you to do your overnighter on Saturday night. Let Friday night be your extra night for the expieracend campers. Doing it this way will also give you an oppurtunity to spend some time getting ready for your acitivities on Saturday.

Expecting non campers to come home from work, pack the car, get to the campground, and get setup is just too much to ask. AND, let's not forget about dinner!!!!

It is far easier to pack up quickly for fast getaway on Sunday morning, then it would be to get there and get setup on Friday night. For the boys who are new to camping, going to bed after spending the whole day in the campground will be better than trying to get them to sleep after just arriving and setting up the tent. Remember, if they arrive Friday night it will be dark long before the boys become comfortable with their surroundings.

One last thing, BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THE TOASTED MARSHMALLOWS.

Good Luck.

The showing of October Sky was I think the most emotionally effective bit of choreography that Ive ever been a part of. As they say, timing is everything, and the timing of this movie in the program was outstanding. Especially for those who had not previously seen the movie. It reduced a room of 52 grown men and women to mush.

Win All You Can was another story. Most of us just didnt get it. Maybe it was the way it was presented, or maybe it was the game itself. In the previous years WB, this game almost caused a fight. Im told that it got VERY ugly. So, yes I think that this part of the program could use some work.

SP, you are of course correct. I never read the fine print. We are always instructed to have the IH sign the applications and charter.

I guess it's one way of insuring that the someone contacts the IH at least once a year.

The idea of working your ticket, is intended to make you a better Scout Leader. As a Cub Scout leader, you might want to take stock of where you see your future in the Scouting Program.

Do you see yourself staying with the Pack for another 10 years, or do you see yourself working at the Council level in the future? Maybe you see yourself as an organizer and planner, or maybe you see yourself as a skills person or outdoorsman specializing in teaching scoutcraft and outdoor skills to the boys.

I don't remember the details of the questionnaire that Eamonn refers to, but some of this stuff might already be there. If not, it's worth spending some time with.

The COR has no signature responsibility to the unit!

The IH - Institutional Head - must sign Adult applications and the Charter.

Special treatment is always a difficult situation. Maybe he doesn't understand what he's doing. I suggest that you discuss this with your CC or CM (whichever you are not) and perhaps another knowledgeable leader. If you all agree, then go talk to the COR, but not alone. If  you can't agree then you might need to spend some time in quiet reflection.

And what if one of my cubbies is my nephew, can I be his guardian on a camp out?

There are lots of ways to answer this, but only one is correct. Yes, you can be his guardian, but, no, you cannot sleep in the same tent with him.

I am sure that someone will try to call me on this, but that is the "official" answer that I have repeatedly been given by our Council people.

The other side of this question is, will your own son be on the trip? How many other responsibilities will you have on the trip? Will you have the time to supervise a child that is not yours? Good questions, you should think about the answers before committing to anything.

Here is another thought, why would you want a more involved COR. The CORs responsibly is to interface between the unit and Chartering Organization. He/She should be mainly involved with issues relating to the Charter agreement. Items like Leader selection, meeting location, equipment storage, and maybe the coordination of some program activities that are associated with your CO. Having said that, most COs and CORs dont want anything to do with Leader selection.

It is the Leaders job to make the program, not the COR. If youre looking for the COR to be more involved in the way a Leader is, then youre really looking for another Leader and not the COR.

So what is it that you expect from the COR.

And by the way, SP makes a good point about whom can replace whom!

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

As Wingnut mentioned above, we do all of those trainings each week for any adults in camp. Some weeks it becomes a one on one session, but we do have leaders that look forward to the opportunity to do some training while at camp.

I am particularly fond of the SM Sleep-off. It has a very simple set of rules.... the SM must be seen sleeping in a "public" area of the camp. The porch that surrounds our dining hall is a favorite.

My "den family" is at least 30.

Scoutnut nailed it, the Program Helps are just that, HELP.

Sure you can try to run your program by following the Program Helps religiously, but you could do better things with your time. Pull things from the book that are worth while and doable for you! Remember, not all of us are the same. Something that works for you may not work for me. The Program Helps represents an ideal program where everything falls into place and everyone does their share and then some, including the parents. It also requires weekly meetings!

This may be a generalization but Ive found that Packs, who become consumed with the themes, have trouble advancing their boys. There is a simple fact that most parents will accommodate a few advancement requirements at home. But they will not accommodate more than a few. That means that we as DLs need to do advancement work at den meetings. For most of us, we cant do both theme and advancement work at den meetings. So you have to make a choice.

Some would tell you that advancement is the Parents responsibility; others would say that its the DLs responsibility. I think the answer really lies somewhere in between. If your boys are having fun doing advancement work at their den meetings I would tell you..leave well enough alone, It aint broke, dont fix it!

I think it's about doing the bare minimum. Many leaders exist by doing only the bare minimum. One excuse for getting away with it is that they are not trained.

This falls squarely into that category. "If I don't get trained, then I don't have to be a part of a swimming event. And, if someone does go into the water and a situation develops, I can't be held responsible since I'm not trained......"

Convoluted thinking, but some people live by it.

Scoutnut your camping facilities seem to be different than what is available here. We have no public campgrounds with cabins in this area. Our Youth camping areas are specifically set aside of youth camping, not family camping. That means, that very young are not welcome, and family groups are not allowed. In effect these areas are set aside for Troop Camping.

So we dont camp in different areas, we are in the same group site, but we setup as dens. The families in the dens setup next to each other. With or without instruction, I would expect nothing less from a good den. They want to be together! Families with more than one boy in the Pack decide where they want to pitch their tent. As relationships go, this is never a difficult choice for them. As for the non campers, they are surrounded by people they know and have a relationship with.

Cooking is always the biggie. We have Packs that pick a weekend and do the Family Camping thing, and we have Packs that setup and manage their own little commercial kitchen for the weekend, feeding 250- 300 people 6 meals over a weekend. By and large most units cook by den and it makes sense. Logistically its doable without a commitment to have people tied up with preparing meals for 300, six times over the weekend. Cost wise there is less waste, how do you plan for the comings and goings of all these families if youre cooking for a group of CS families that dont always show up when and where theyre expected?

Then there are the Webelos. Many Webelos dens dont do den camping. Pack trips are the perfect opportunity for them to do the outdoor cooking.

Yes Pack camping is family camping, everyone is invited and Baloo does emphasize group cooking because the Pack is an assembly of Groups! They are called Dens. But Baloo does not emphasize a single cooking station for the entire Pack. The logistics of doing this is simply beyond what most Packs could successfully pull off. If you allow the families to team up by themselve to do meals then someone is always left out.

By the way, if this were like Troop camping. The sibs would not be there, all the parents would not be there, the parents would not be cooking for the children, and the children would be shopping, cleaning, and almost everything else. The kids would be setup in one area, and the adults would be setup separately from them.

I think this topic is about much more than Nationals support for recruiting, although some positive press and advertising would certainly help.

As Ive said before, I believe that there is a perception issue with regard to Scouting. And as a result Scouting has become polarized and political. Many people just dont want to be associated with the current perception of scouting. This is not helping when it comes to recruiting. National should find a way to fix this!

We also have kids who are involved in everything under the sun. The choices are many, and instead of being one of just a few, scouting is now one of many activities available to todays youth. To go along with my last comment, the parents who do get involved with their kids lives are also involved in more things. Consequently, fewer parents have less time to dedicate to work in BSA than perhaps 10 or 15 years ago. And, with fewer parents having less time, the kids are involved in fewer activities that would make the program visible in your community.

My take on recruiting follows the thoughts I listed above. I dont think that tweaking the program will increase recruiting. I do think that some more realistic program helps would or could aid in retention. Basically, program helps is setup for weekly meetings. We all know that most dens do not meet weekly, and as a result, the program helps are of little assistance. Even with weekly meeting, the program helps can be ambitious.

As for Leaders interest in Council and National activities, I think that few care. They are doing there own thing and just dont want to be bothered. This is especially true in CS. The ones that care will seek out information and ideas, the others are just doing enough to get by.

Within our current framework there are three items that I believe would enhance recruitment; mandatory training, required participation in District/Council Events, and Flag retirement ceremonies in each town (or so, but local not regional) two times each year.

And thats my 2 cents.

Maybe this needs a little more of an explanation.

Yes, certainly Pack Camping is a family event for those that want to attend as a family. But a "Pack Family Overnighter" is different than a "Pack Overnighter". Yes, there are some semantics here, but the overall structure and feel of the event are in fact different. In no way, shape or form are any one of these a Troop overnighter.

To make it easy I'll describe the extreme of each:

Pack Family Overnighter - We'll be at Happyland State Park for the weekend, join us anytime, bring your own food and games. Setup wherever you want. If there's interest maybe we'll do a big campfire Saturday night.

Pack Overnighter - Happyland State Park @ 6:00 Fri. Check with your DL before setting up so we can keep the dens together. Dens will prepare meals and eat together, see your DL for further information. Check agenda and schedule attached for Den and Pack responsibilities for flag ceremonies, activities, campfire, Scouts Own and meal times.

The key difference is in maintaining the den structure and not having 10 or 20 or 30 individual families doing their own thing. It should either be a pack activity, lead, structured, and choreographed by the leaders that follows the structure of the program, OR, it could be a bunch of families camping together that happen to be in the same Pack.

When we do camping trips one of my favorite lines is, " This is not your family camping trip". Thats because we the leaders are responsible for the success or failure of the outing as a Cub Scout Campout. The outing should look, feel and smell like a Scout campout. It should be distinctly different then your family camping trip. And you can't do that if your trip is just a group of families camping in the same location at the same time, with little or no structure to bind them, and MEALS are the key to that.

When the boys go back to the den area of the campsite, they still know that they are a part of CS activity. When they go back to mom and dads campsite, the sense of being on a CS campout is lost, especially for the boys who do going camping with their family.

The way I see it is like this, if I'm going to go camping with a bunch of families, and we are all going to do our own meals, impose our own discipline, set our own bedtime, and wake-up times, and if we're going to setup each in our own little area, not sharing anything except a pickup baseball game, then why do it as a pack trip?

I'm not sure that I explained this well, but I hope you get the idea.

This is exactly what we do every year. It has never been a problem. It is not too much to ask of the den leaders. You will have campers in the group that will step forward to help the den.

The problems with allowing each family to cook for itself are numerous. Most notable, non campers will stay home! Second on the list are the simple logistics of moving along with your program. Continuing down the list is the potential for many, TOO MANY stoves, BBQs and ground fires that will occur if you let them all cook for themselves. Kids running all over the place and hot stoves everywhere, not a good thing!

In addition, you want to maintain and enhance den cohesion with your camping trip. Turning the trip into a Family camping trip as opposed to a Pack camping trip goes against that thought.

The meals should be simple, and easy to prepare. Dont get carried away with fancy foods.

I'm confused, what decline are we talking about?

Try Suffolk County Council's Camp Baiting Hollow. It offers access to Bay, Sound or Deep Sea. You'll have your choice of flounder, stripped bass, shark or tuna (and others), depending on where and when you elect to come.

Travel time to the boats varies from about 30 minutes to 1 hour depending on what you want. You could of course fish for bluefish from the the camp beach if you prefer.

I'll PM you with the contact numbers.

No.

In the Cub Scout Program the Bobcat must be earned before any other badge can be awarded, with the exception of the Tiger Badge. Even 4th or 5th grader joining as a Webelos must earn the bobcat badge.

Once the boys reach Boy Scout age there is no Bobcat anymore.

This has become a game between my son and I. I prefer that all the boys address all of us a Mr. or Mrs. My son has heard me say this on at least 100 occasions but he insists on calling me dad. This has evolved to almost theatrical proportions. He says Dad, I say Mr. Foto, he says Dad, I say Mr. Foto and on it goes.

In the end, he always wins!

I used this ceremony yesterday at our B& G to install our new CM. It was terrific! Instead of using diplomas I attached different items to a ribbon that went around the new CMs neck.

Responsibly was a telephone book sized catalog with the 1000 lbs written on it

Knowledge was a graduation cap

Hard work was a hard hat

Enthusiasm was a Sponge Bob stick puppet

Gratification was a back scratcher.

Admiration was a stuffed bear with a big heart held between its hands.

As the symbols of his office we used our Pack flag and a campaign hat. Each was presented to him by one of his sons. So there he stood in the front of the room with all this stuff hanging around his neck, the pack flag in one hand and a too big campaign hat on his head.

I chose not to do the lolly pops, I wasn't comfortable with the kids yelling "sucker".

This was a good one, thanks SP.