fotoscout

Bob, I think that answer is too simplistic. Its a cultural thing. Sports has a culture of participation, requirements, and demands, we dont. Face it, if youre on a team for multiple years you have one choice..get better and become a starter or a valuable alternate, or get out of the way and make room for someone else. We dont even require our kids to advance. We dont require them to come to meetings, we dont require them to put on the uniform, all we ask is that they pay the fees.

Were not too upset when a kid doesnt show and screws up the whole patrol, are we? We pander to the kid who just wants to go camping and hang out with his buddies. We pander to the kid who just wants to have a good time without doing anything more than the bare minimum. No good team would ever put up with what we put up with. Most bad teams wont even put up with it.

Heres a good idea, lets do like the sports people do, make special units of good Scouts. No, not the OA!. Just one good unit in each town where participation is both expected and demanded, where advancement to Eagle is the norm. Lets give the kids that really love this scouting stuff, a place to be on the all-star team. Let's give them a place where planning and execution are taken to a higher level. A place where everyone, even the adults are pushed to the limit. A place where EVERYONE can be counted on to get their job done all the time! A place where you either perform or are asked to leave.

Oh yeah, one more thing, lets be brave enough to publicly announce this new all star unit, with all its demands and expectations.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

I dont believe that people feel a commitment to scouting as they do to a sports team. We have not and probably never will emphasize the participation part of scouting. Heck, even in this forum the players cant agree on what constitutes participation. Sports on the other hand emphasizes participation from day one, some even demand participation.

A campout goes on all day, so what if little Johnny missed the morning activities sez the Dad. All you can do is make sure the parent realizes what activities the child will miss during the daytime hours.

Poor training, too quick to answer, and a deep down desire to give an answer be it right wrong or indifferent.

Probably the CM misinterpreted or misunderstood the question, and the Tiger Mom didn't know any better.

The program does not require parents, other than Tiger parents, to stay at meetings. Your pack may for some reason, ask or even require parents to stay. But I think you would know if that were the case.

Actually we do well enough with our Popcorn sale, and participation is generally acceptable. Its the people on the fringe that are starting to bother me.

September - - - December, seems to me that there is enough time here to make an informed decision.

Although I had a great time doing Tigers, I too have reservations about the Tiger program. First off, we give what is arguably the toughest job in Scouting to the newest, least experienced, untrained, and naive members of our Pack. This makes no sense at all. The program should be recruited for in September, with a start date of January. The months in between should be used for training leaders and parents. OR, national has to come up with very detailed den meeting kits for the Tiger Dens, kind of like a Den meeting in a bag (or box). Program helps isnt enough for these people.

Second, the concept of having weekly den meetings in a meeting place for Tigers should be scraped. It should be not more than one den meeting in a meeting place per month, and maybe pack night. The rest of the time should be spent on go-see-its.

These kids and their parents are exploring absolutely every activity out there. Its no wonder why retention is low, especially at that age. And to top it off we need to have the parents present at the meetings. To a great extent the Tiger program is a recipe for failure.

Having said that, weve done pretty well. The year I did Tigers we started with 17, 12 of those boys are still with us a Webelos.

The more I think about this, the less insulted I would feel about it.

Last week I signed my son up for Little League, $95 for the season. April, May and June, oh yeah, it includes a tee shirt. He does Karate, $250 every three months, and lets not forget swimming lessons, $65 every three months. So what is there to be concerned with for a year round program that costs only $135?

I know weve had this discussion before, but I think it always warrants repeating! To those who think scouting is too expensive, I challenge you to have participation in the program at somewhere around a 90%-100% level. Come back to us in a year and let us know if you got your moneys worth. Ill bet that youll be ranting about the bargain you got!

Ed,

I dont know what used to happen, but heres an example of how ours worked.

There was a fire building competition for the BSs. Small fire, maybe a 6 inch base, with a string hung down above it. The idea was to see who could make the string catch fire the fastest. For the BSs it was pure competition, maybe with some insight from the station master. For the Webelos it was pure instructional, no competition, but after the concept was taught and demonstrated they did get a chance to time themselves. A parallel activity, at the same location, but separate from the BSs.

sorry duble post, watch those double clicks.(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

At my WB course we did a flag retirement ceremony. We retired one very large flag. The idea was to cut it up into pieces so that everyone could participate. I remember wanting to say STOP as the cutting started, but as the ceremony progressed I calmed down. The cutting actually allowed more time for readings, songs and music. It also focused all of your thoughts on that flag, and in a convoluted way, watching the flag get cut into pieces, caused a very strong patriotic response in most of us. I am not sure if this would work for smaller flags, but it was terrific with this very large flag that we had.

The other advantage is of course that everyone could participate. The ceremony becomes much more personal if you have the opportunity to personally place a flag (or piece of one) into the fire.

Ill give you two (sorry)

1. Make training mandatory

2. Make the uniform mandatory

Ed, Webelos can attend and participate in Camporees, but, there needs to be program set up for them. The program can parallel the BS program, but it need to be implemented as Webelos program, not a BS program. They cannot attend as Jr. Boy Scouts.

This is a leadership issue. If youre going to lead, then LEAD. Discipline the boys. Set a threshold; Johnny, Ive told you once, if I have to tell you again you will have to move away from the fire, and stick with it. Its that simple!

If you have a fire, the adults should be near the fire, not coffee claching around the cooler. The first thing you need to do is tell the parents what the expected behavior is! Then stick to it!!

Ive had pack trips where Ive prohibited smores and marshmallows around the fire. As Ive previously said in this forum, I am petrified of all those little kids walking around in the dark with pointed sticks and hot melting marshmallows. If you cant control the kids and the parents wont help, then douse the fire. Everyone needs to accept responsibility for this activity or it shouldnt happen.

Forced participation.I kind of like it!!!

Sure Id be a little insulted by it, but lets face it, how often do you go through the exercise of setting up an outing for lets say 50 people, and only 10 or 15 sign up to go. Then those 10-15 wait until the last minute to shell over the money. If you want to be a Cub Scout then be a Cub Scout and participate in the Packs adventures.

I understand this one, and I kind of like it. The committee is saying, this is what we do, if you want to be a part of our program here it is, if you dont like it, youre welcome to join a different Pack!

As for the $135, I don think its high. We charge $72 per year for retuning scouts, and that only includes den dues, registration, boys life, and awards. All of our other expenses are funded from the Popcorn Fundraiser. But I must tell you that I am becoming quite fed up with paying for people who dont participate in the fundraiser! This year I've seen the ultimate insult, we have a couple of families that bought one $15 box of popcorn each. Yes, they undestood the importance of the fundraiser, and still they insult us with this kind of response. Of course they'll also be the first one's in line for freebee paid for by the Pack.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

As long as I can remember, the polling places around here have always been "public facilities; public schools, libraries, buildings owned by the local municipality.

The way it should be!

Right now your Pack/Den meetings are neither Pack or Den Meetings. The kids are bored listening to the CM for 30 minutes and Ill bet the parents are saying, whats going on here. You might be pleasantly surprised by the reaction youll get to making the Den Meetings real Den Meetings, and the Pack Night a real Pack night. Explain to everyone whats going to happen and that the benefit to the boys will be that they can actually work the CS Program.

Woooow! Sounds like you do have a problem.

I would start by trying to get your leaders trained so that they can learn and understand what the structure is supposed to look like.

Next, I would tinker with the meetings. You need to work on this meeting thing. You cant have two quasi Pack/Den meeting per month. It just doesnt work that way. We have packs in our area that meet in mass every week for den meetings. They meet at the same location at the same time with all of the boys. But they do not get together as a Pack. They meet as dens. Then, once a month they get together for the Pack Meeting. It works for them and it seems to foster great communications between the leaders.

Next you need to work on awards and advancements. The whole CS program is built around that concept.

As for the Den Chiefs, Id get rid of them for now. Bring them back when you have a program that you can integrate them with, and, the Den Leaders know what to do with them.

Two campouts a year for a CS Pack is OK, there is nothing wrong with that as long as there are other outdoor activities during the year.

Day Camp is terrific, but dont hang your program on it. As the dens gel, Day Camp enrollment will go up. I might think of unloading the Day Camp responsibilities from your other leaders. They need to concentrate on their Dens and the Pack first. Find others to take on the Day Camp.

And as for recruiting, lunch time in the school yard doesn't seem to be the ideal place. Get flyers, and do a regular evening recruitment drive.

Good Luck.

I think is a matter of how low do you go?

Is it OK for kids (and parents) to wear tank tops, shorts, ripped jeans, and beat up old sneakers to church every week? Is it ok for kids to go to school in yesterdays dirty play clothes? Is it Ok that the first time a young man wears a tie, is to his first job interview?

I say no. Part of wearing the uniform is wearing it properly, without holes or tears, with everything kinda where it belongs, in short, in a manner that the boy can be proud of. And we set the example. So, how low do you go? Camo shorts and a camo tank top. Then theyll have a second set of clothing to go to church in.

Commissioners can be very good, given the opportunity. But that doesnt go for all them. Like in any other job, some are good and some are not.

You seem to be screaming for some help and your UC isnt giving it to you. If thats the case, than SPEAK UP! Contact your council office, go to Roundtable, get your DC & Council Commission phone numbers. Ask for help until you get it.

But be advised, no one will do the work for you. They will make suggestions, point you in the right direction, and tell you where you can look for other assistance. But they wont do the work for you. It is never a Commissioners job to do the actual work of the unit leaders.

Yes, I do!

Ask him for the details supporting their claims of how much of the donated money actually goes to the organizaions they claim to support.

I forget what the published number is, but I for one don't believe it. I think UW is a scam. Anyone that has seen their edifice on the banks of the Potomac will agree.

If you want to give your money to Scouting, then write a check to your Council Office.(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

Mr. Marcheck why are you so unhappy?

Youve picked on the uniform

Youve picked on the Charter Organization

Youve picked on the Council

Youve picked on the Commissioners

There must be something about this Scouting stuff that is keeping you awake at night

The uniform that youre just described is visible in thousands of beach front and resort communities. Whats special? What stands out? Welcome to Wendys can I help you?

And do you think for a second that this would result in a uniform appearance? Someone will always gripe about the uniform regardless of what it is. My gripe is the cost. But if it bothered me that much, Id do something else with my time. The uniform (and its cost) are something that I accepted when I signed the application.

I think that the response here could fill a small encyclopedia.

First, I am glad that your had two parents! For a while I thought that there was some special thing that the queen did to turn out all those Englishman.

Yes, more meetings are occurring in schools and the like. I think its because more of the moms are working, and because the den size seems to be growing. Also when you throw the Tiger parent requirement into the mix, you now need a bigger space than most people have at home.

As for parents at the den meetings, we, BSA, is partially responsible for this trend. Its the Tiger parent thing again. The parents come and enjoy themselves. They like to watch the kids, especially the older parents! I cant say that the boys behavior changes when the parent is present, vs. when the parent is not present. They always seem to be the same to me. Parents today are more aware of where they leave there children. Many stay simply because they wont leave their kids anywhere.

I am very fortunate to have a great group of parents; they are always willing to help out in absolutely any manner. Some stay, and some leave. Not always the same ones. We share some of the planning chores, and shamelessly take advantage of each others professional experience, skills, and talents to make a better program for the boys.

As for the behavior that you witnessed, certainly it was unacceptable. If the den leader wasnt controlling the kids one of the parents should have. In my den when something happens behind my back, a parent always steps in. I only have 4 eyes. However, Eamonn, I dont know when it was that you were a den leader, but many people suggest that todays kids are less well behaved than the kids of 20 years ago. I would think that some of what you saw was this thought in action.

Thank You !

Just to add to my earlier quick answer.

It seems clear to me that this guy just want to be the CM so that his younger son can see him as the big kahuna. Since hes doing nothing for the rest of the kids, I very safety assume that hes in it very selfishly for himself. There appears to be no doubt that he is killing your pack and getting in the way of providing a complete quality program to the kids.

Ill stay with my earlier suggestion to have him removed. I recommend that you do it sooner than later. You want him to clearly get the message that hes not wanted it he doesnt care about all the kids. Remember he still has a young son at home, I dont think you want him coming back to haunt you in 3 more years. Get him out of the way. I would not suggest waiting until there is trained leadership to replace him. Some of your leaders are trained, use them to help the new CM do his job. Theyll do fine!

Next. For now just ignore the guy, make believe he doesnt exist. Dont expect any input from him, and dont give him any. Schedule and hold your leader meetings without him. Use your Charter Organization to wrestle the checkbook away from him. Youll need them to have him removed anyway.

As for purchasing Leader books, it may be your tradition that the pack pays for training and books for the leaders, but that is not the case in all places. It would not be unusual for the leaders to purchase their own books.

Most of us sacrifice a lot to bring a fair and level program to all the boys. We sacrifice time away from our familys, and sometimes even expect too much from our own boys who are in the program. This guy's behavior hits a real sore point with me! GET RID OF THE GUY !!!

It's time to have this leader removed!

You are correct that the uniform issue is complex. I believe that making the uniform mandatory would eliminate all complexities from the equation.

As for the need to constantly remind people to wear the uniform, this issue goes away when it becomes routine for the boys to wear their uniforms. The expectation should be that the boys wear the uniform all the time unless told otherwise.

The dad can be a schlep or a smuck, but odds are that he enrolled his son in CS partially because of an association with what the uniform stands for.