fotoscout

In the past we've done a Tiger Fun Day. I suspect that this would be the same kind of event.

Done as a district event it was scheduled for late in the spring, and doubled as a spring recruiting drive for Tigers. All currently enrolled Tigers were invited. Recruiting flyers were distributed to kindergarteners in the schools.

This was a fun event, but very high maintenance. Tiger leaders attended but did not assist in putting on the event. A few higher functioning Cub Leaders saw the wisdom of this event but most Cub leaders didnt see a purpose in supporting the event because there was nothing in it for them or their CSs. Ultimately the work load fell to the District staff with a larger burden on the CS RT staff.

Self appointed is never an option. I think I would have a chat with your CC before even mentioning this to anyone else. There is also the question of his registration, what is he registered as?

I think that this pocket knife thing with the Popcorn awards is one of the most stupid things Ive seen come out national!!

Everything in moderation!!!

Provided you dont let this get out of hand, and use this one service project for an infinite number of awards or credits toward an award, I would think its OK. You have to be careful that in doing this, and then doing it again, and again, and again, it doesnt make a mockery of your program.

Your initial assessment is correct. With assistance, the raingutter regatta boats can be simpler for the Tigers to make, BUT that is no reason to deprive them of the Pinewood Derby experience. Tigers everywhere participate in the Pinewood Derby. Sure dad or mom have to do some work on the car, but that's the sharing part..errrSearch, Discover, Share!!!!

Some of the most imaginative cars we get come from the Tigers. They are not bound by the conventional wisdom of what a race car should look like.

There is a miss conception that the boys are required to build the car without any help. That is wrong. Building the car should be a family centered activity. As the years go on the boys need less and less help building the car, they take what they learned the year before and add to it. This is not about building a competitive car, its about building a car that will make it to the end of the track. Its about building a car that looks like something that came from the boys imagination. Three years ago, one of our Tigers showed up with a car that looked like a Shark. The kid was into sharks. Of course dad had to do a lot of work on the car but the boy painted and decorated the car. To this day, that car still has the place of honor on the boys dresser.

So to answer you question, YES absolutely the Tigers should participate in the Pinewood Derby.

Some things to take note of: as you know the Tigers will have a very short attention span. You should have some other activities for them to do. If your pack does not do the raingutter regatta as a pack activity you might want to provide this as a displacement activity for the boys. There are lots of Pinewood Derby crafts available, you could bring a TV & VCR and play race movies. Matchbox cars are always a hit at the Pinewood Derby, etc, etc, etc.

The Pinewood Derby is a big event for Cub Scouts and Cub Scout Families. It is one of those things that the boys will talk about with there own children.

Food and drink that require no heat.

This has to be one of the most real posts Ive ever seen here. As SP said, I feel your pain!

I am an advocate of doing what it takes to make the pack strong rather than bailing out to another pack. Youve done your time trying to build the pack, and I suspect youve let the other leaders know that you cannot go on being a one man show. It appears that they have not picked up the ball and accepted additional responsibilities. At this point you would have nothing to be ashamed of by leaving the pack.

My esteemed friend Eamonn gives some good advice. He is synopsizing the BSA method of recruiting adults. Its a good method, but you need help in doing it, and it is very time consuming. Also, in the position you are in, you could not cry wolf 10 times then go back to the till for another 10.

Have you had the heart to heart with all your leaders and committee people as a group? Have you had the heart to heart with all the parents? At some point the group discussion must take place where you tell everyone, Folks, if you dont step up and take some responsibility for the Packs operation, there will be no Pack, and no Cub Scouts for your Children. On their own, they may figure out that they can move to another pack, but I would not provide that information. This method does work. It is not an easy discussion to have because it makes everyone very uncomfortable. But it very clearly gets the point across.

There is of course another way to look at this. Some people are givers, and some are takers. You and the other leaders are givers, everyone else is a taker. The takers have sucked the life out of your pack. Some because they were problematic, but most by virtue of being passive, very passive. If you close down the pack, many of those takers are going to show up at the next pack and possibly drive it into the ground.

Just my two cents.

My wife tried to get a red wool shirt-jac for me as a holiday present. National supply told her that they did not have any in stock, and that the earliest delivery would be in the spring. She said that they sounded a bit ambiguous about the whole thing. Maybe they dont know who the new supplier will be?

btps,

If the adult works with the unit on a regular basis, and is more than just an adult tagging along on camping trips, that adult should be registered.

Two things happen: first, the adult will be formally covered under BSA insurance, not only for injury protection but also for liability. Second, is that you gain a piece of mind. As Im sure you know, a background check is done on all new adult leaders.

Here is the other side of the story.....If you have an adult who has become a regular with your unit and does not embrace the idea of filling out the application, you might have a problem on your hands. Sure the odds of this are remote, but are you willing to take that chance?

Acco40 makes a point that Ive heard many times in the last few months.

Often leaders and parents are upset because the boys didnt come home with completions on all their MBs from camp. Of course this (wrongly) results in a negative impression of camp. Acco40 is correct that especially the parents become agitated about little Johnny coming home with partials.

I think that for the most part, this comes down to the camp staff. Some are stricter than others. Some are giving away the MBs. In reality everyone wants the boys to go home with MBs. For many the number of MBs is directly related to their impression of camp. Coming home with a basket full of partials is the kiss of death!!!!

Certainly there are many factors at play here, but at the top of my list is expectations. What expectations did the boys, leaders, and parents have as they left for camp? And again I go back to the leader who did not read the camp planning package.

But this goes for both our in-Council and out-of-Council campers.

We had similar problem with our Tigers at the beginning of this year. One den had an experienced DL and the other had a new DL. By our November pack meeting it was apparent that in spite of a huge effort to help the new DL, he just didnt get it. The parents and the boys all recognized that the other den was having regular den meetings, doing Go See Its, and receiving beads, while this den was not.

The experienced DL communicated with the new DL on a regular basis, we coached the new DL to the best of our ability, and this guy still didnt get it. For legitimate reasons he could not get to training. I cant begin to tell you how much time we spent with this guy. I spent over an hour with the guy explaining the achievements, beads, den meetings, Go See Its, Family Activities, and the Tiger Program in general, the guy looked at me and asked, How do they get the badge? Ultimately we had to combine the dens, with the understanding that next year the den will be split up. I suspect that splitting the den will be painful, but its the right thing to do.

We did our jobs and paid close attention to what was going on. Fortunately for everyone, especially the boys we stepped in before any damage was done.

Wasnt there a rumor that they were going to roll out a new uniform at the Jamboree????

We could probably fill volumes with this topic. The Harvard Business School or any other MBA program would probably have a field day with how we market and manage the customer service side of our camp operations.

In my travels promoting camp during the last six months Ive found that most of the bad blood associated with camp has more to do with the person doing the complaining than it does the camp! Stubbornness, ignorance, an innate inability to get along, a lack of consideration for others, and an unwillingness to communicate, have been the root cause of almost all the bad blood that Ive listened to. Consider this; two troops camping side by side, one has a great time, the other has a leader or leaders that are constantly in the camp directors face. Why is this?

One leader read the schedule, the other leader did not; One leader read the camp planing package and understood that some MB had prerequisites, the other leader did not;  One leader expected Scout like behavior from his boys, the other leader did not; One leader had a problem and reeled at some poor camp staffer then did nothing about it, the other leader discussed the problem with the camp director.

Then we get the thoughts expressed by SemperParatus From the troop perspective, the scouts are spending good money for what should be a quality experience. In most cases, they are getting good value from summer camp (have you priced other summer camp programs lately - wow!). However, I don't think attendees should be completely catered to in every way and for every complaint. In some instances, adjusting the program to accommodate one unit can have detrimental effects on other units.

Everyone wants to be treated as someone special....look at all the money I brought to your camp! First, most people dont realize just how much of a shoestring budget most camps run on. Second, program or personnel changes cant, wont, and dont, happen instantly at camp because we (and I suspect most camps), dont have the surplus of personnel to make instantaneous changes.

As Semper said, BS Camp is a bargain! A very big bargain. Those that expect 5 Star resort service, will be best to find a 5 Star resort that will accommodate the troop.

Sure we have our share of foul ups, noone is perfect. When decent people are involved the foul ups can become our greatest achievements.

In my course (21st Cent.) we had nothing like a outpost hike, but we did have one night of fellowship that was planned into the program.

During the first weekend the staff let it be known that we might have the opportunity to have our own informal gathering during the second weekend. So with that in mind we were supposed to conclude that a little preparation might be in order.

The second weekend rolled around and the staff let us know that they would be off site one night and that by know means should we all get together and have a campfire. It was very coy!

Well of course we organized ourselves and had a campfire. Shy of being a Pollywog, I dont think Ive ever laughed so hard. This was the mother of all campfires and not because of the fire. What an episode, I only wish someone would have taped it.

With 15 lbs of shrimp cocktail some of us were more prepared than others. There were about 60 of us in a circle around the fire. As the shrimp made it to the other side of circle, all I remember was this very loud booming voice making declaration that at least someone here knows how to camp!

It was a great night.

Webelos night for a Troop is great idea for the Troop, but not much good for the Webelos, although the Webelos usually have a good time.

Webelos night certainly helps focus the troop on its need to do recruiting. Thats good because many troops simply dont recognize the need to do recruiting throughout the year. They sit and wait for the Webelos leaders to call and schedule a troop visit. On the other hand, it tells me very little about a troop when they do a Webelos night. A lot of time and energy goes into it. It becomes a SPECIAL event for the troop. But it is not representative of a typical outing or meeting and consequently you dont get see the troop at its norm.

Actually I have the PowerPoint and was looking for supplemental or unique material to enhance the presentation.

With all due respect, I would guess that you are never quite satisfied with most things that you do. We do the best we can with what we have. We are all volunteers. Sure some of our trainers are rough around the edges, but they are there doing the job week-in and week-out. Sure, some are screened out with time, but those who remain are the best we can field.

Perhaps we should not do any training for fear of upsetting someone in the audience. Maybe some old redneck would take offence at a female instructor. Maybe you dont like being taught by someone with an accent, even a British accent.

You had a bad experience with one instructor (I think it was one). Her voice was too loud? (too soft?) and she was teaching what I would think must be a terribly difficult subject since everyone thinks they are an expert when it comes to G2SS. You need to go back and remember what you were there for. Take another class and focus on the course material instead of the instructor.

Having said all the above, I do agree with you that some of our instructors are not the best trainers on the planet. They do their best, and everyone gets something out of the class. They know that someone else could probably do a better job with the class. But they show up week after week waiting for someone better to take over, and when it happens theyll be glad to turn over the pointer.

Small trembling squeaky mouse voice on.......

Thanks John

Small trembling squeaky mouse voice off.

You say one thing that concerns me..the boy is Reportedly diagnosed. If you havent already, you need to have a conversation with the parents. Be sure to have your CC, CM or another leader with you when this discussion takes place.

You have a responsibility to all the boys in your den. Use the problem childs parents to promote the behavior you want. Be CLEAR with the parent and child about what types of behavior will not be tolerated. Make the parent be the policeman, you simply dont have time to conduct your meeting and be this boys policeman. Make it clear that the parent will determine the outcome!!!!!!!!!!!!! The parent needs to be a very close one on one with the boy. This parent cannot entertain himself (or herself) with the other parents while you are working with the boys. This parent must be involved with the child. At this age it's about the parent, not the child. Unfortunately it's the child who will suffer.

Stand your ground and if necessary, send the boy home. With a big den, you have little or no time to deal with one high energy kid. If the parent is committed to the boy being in Scouting than the parent will have to help earn that right. You are already seeing the negative fallout from this kind of behavior. It is not fair to the other boys who are entitled to have this be a positive experience.

One of the recommendations that often come from health care professionals is to keep ADD/ADHD children in structured activities like Scouting. Unfortunately, most of us dont have the training to deal with these kids, and the parents often wont deal with these kids. If this boy is hitting, kicking and tackling then you have a real problem on your hands. Unwanted touching, especially aggressive acts like hitting and kicking have a negative affect on the other boys self-esteem. You cannot let that happen!

I am not advocating throwing the baby out with the bath water! But you do have the self esteem of the other boys to think about.

All other things aside, AD/ADHD is not the only reason that little boys hit, kick and tackle. Yes, the boy has a problem, but don't be too quick to label him. It may be a "child rearing" problem, or it may be a problem well beyond AD/ADHD

You may, or may not, have a strong leader personality. You may, or may not be a take charge kind of person. As the new Tiger Den Leader you have to set the tone for your meetings and the program that you will run in the coming years. Dont be afraid to do the right thing and have this very difficult conversation with the parent(s). The other parents expect you to do it! The other parents expect CS meetings that are free of aggression, and overflowing with positive behaviors.

WB is an "experience" as much as it is a training class. To an extent it immerses you in the culture of Scouting but not the practice of Scouting. It doesnt pretend to offer all the answers to all the questions, and most certainly it is not the end-all crash course in Scouting.

As I talk to people and read the responses here I am quickly coming to the conclusion that what people want is a more Scoutlike experience from WB. More experience and less training. The concept of learning and using advanced management skills within the framework of a pack, troop, or crew, seems to be too much for many people. Or perhaps as followers rather than leaders they simply dont see any use for that type of training.

In any event, I thought WB had very few shortcomings. As time passes, the only shortcoming that stays with me evolves around all the time spent writing tickets.

Good question, sounds like you have too many local troops.

Since you are willing to accept the first offer from any unit, then you may be a proponent of making an uninformed choice. That is of course, your choice.

On the contrary, I am familiar with the other units in my area, and my Webelos & parents will become equally familiar with them. Troops do not make offers, and I do not negotiate with them. The program is, what the program is! Scouting is a community based program, we will support our community and stay where we are.

Aside from that, there are some very subtle and not so subtle reasons for staying in your community. With families being as busy as they are, there is great reason to do your Scouting close to home. Long trips to the unit meeting place and back home again, are not a benefit to new scouts. The boys need to get to meetings, not have another excuse for missing the meetings. And remember, Mom or Dad have to drive them, and Mom and Dad have other children at home to care for!

Next is the fact that your local troop is most likely populated with familiar people from around your community, and your CS pack. Heres where that comfort factor comes in! Certainly the boys are more comfortable with familiar faces, but so are the parents. What do you think the odds are that the boys will go to summer camp with a troop whose leaders are strangers, as opposed to going to camp with a troop where the leaders are known to both the scouts and parents?

This transition exercise is not about the Webelos leader showing off how much he (or she) has learned about the BS program. Its not about putting the Webelos on a path to specialize in one type of outdoor activity; its about giving the boys an opportunity to enjoy the BS program. Its about placing them in an environment where they can succeed without pressure. As far as Im concerned, barring any red flags, it the local troop.

Fuzzy,

Isn't it the boys who are interviewing for a troop?

I've said previously in this forum, that I believe in staying my community. Baring any red flags we will move to the troop in our community. Yes, well go thru the exercise of doing troop visits because we have to, but I dont believe that there is anything worthwhile in the doing so.

You identified 10 things that a knowledgeable leader would look for, but the kids and parents will know nothing of what you mentioned here. Most of what you mentioned will have no bearing on how comfortable the boys are moving into that troop.

Does the troop backpack?, or car camp?, are moms allowed on the trail? Will there be a new scout patrol or will the new scouts be immediately merged into existing patrols? Great questions that should be asked, but I dont think that any of the answers constitute grounds for selecting that troop.

First, the boys dont know what they want in a troop.....how could they? Second, the boys need to feel comfortable. Most likely that will happen because someone has a brother, cousin, or friend in the troop. And last, where is the Webelos leader going???? That may well be the most important question with respect to the boys short term success with a new Boy Scout troop.

Most importantly, the boys are not bound to the troop for life. They only need to start somewhere and learn more about what BS's has to offer them. They are always free to move to another troop.

What's important is that the form be filled out accurately. It's like doing a self assessment every year. We have to be honest in answering the questions.

For instance....if advancement was sporadic, I doubt that the unit could truly have met the requirement for QU, unless it's a very small or VERY large unit, since sometimes the math is misleading with these types of units.

The point you bring up is really this. Does the unit have to be By the Book to be a Quality Unit? The QU form does not ask enough questions to determine if the unit is By the Book. But, it does do a good job of determining if a solid program is being offered to the boys. It may not be By the Book, but the boys come, and learn, and have a good time. The program goes forward week after week, year after year. In some ways thats a quality program.

Clearly, not all units run By the Book, in fact, most probably avoid or skirt some part of the book. Does that mean they are bad programs? No. Certainly there are programs out there that are excellent, while not adhering many of the BSA guidelines. One can only wonder how much more the boys would get out those programs if they were run with more of the BSA program implemented on a routine basis.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

I think if you look at the Quality Unit application, you get most of the answer. In fact I think you get more than the answer.

Although I have some angst over recruiting goals as a QU requirement, I think the QU application does a very good job of defining for us what a true quality unit should be.

Try to remember that a quality unit needs to be more than a unit where the boys had good time this week. The boys need to have a good time week-in and week-out, with a regular smattering of success along the way. The criteria for QU, as outlined on the form, helps direct us toward an operation that can make that happen.

One item that I would like to see added would be a line that goes something like this, Adults play well together?. More than anything that I have seen, if the adults play well together they will tend to have a good unit.

Eamonn, Thanks for explainations.

I've been thinking about some type of role play. One thought was to do some type of mock uniform inspection where the inspectors would have blank pieces of paper on a clipboard. Then talk about the "walking around with a clipboard" thing.