Eagledad

I was thinking about this, we averaged 40 scouts at campouts with about 10 adults. That number of adults was more a requirement for transpiration than attending to the scouts. And I would guess, that excepting for assembly, the scouts' would struggle to think of a time when they saw more than two adults at the same time. Patrols are, or supposed to be, self supporting. Our adults camp at least 100 feet or more from the patrols, which is almost out of sight in the woods. So our scouts are use to feeling independent from the adults. Maybe times are changing, I haven't camped with the troop in few years. But, if the patrols requires any adults for reasons other than YPT, the program might be missing something. Barry

Why? Barry

Ah, thanks. Still, I've never held much respect for it as an Eagle requirement. How many meals will a scout plan, cook and eat in their scouting career of an Eagle? At least a few of the additional skills in the Swimming MB are somewhat advanced. To require a badge that the subject is already the foundation of the Scouting program suggest doubt on the program. This is the same principle reason the GSUSA has lost respect for much of it's program structure in the last 40 years. They have basically said our girls are better leaders because we tell them they are better leaders. They rely on words as the behavioral teachers of their program. First of all, humans don't learn that way. 2nd, that puts a lot of responsibility on the integrity of the individual leaders. BSA use to tell their leaders to just do the program, the scouts experience will do the rest. Barry

I've always struggled with Eagle requirements that involve normal scouting skills. Let's stop the bleeding and stop. Merit badges were originally added to the program to give scouts a taste of other interest outside scouting, possibly a career. Should camping and cooking really be a requirement for what every scout does on every campout? The Eagle should represent scouts who display above average decisions of moral and ethical character. Order of the Arrow once required those traits from their candidates,. Which is why Arrowmen were held in such high respect. Arrowmen weren't honored for their badges, rank or stature, they were honored for their everyday honorable actions.. In general terms, we shouldn't be adding the requirements of the average scout's experience. In the case of this badge, we shouldn't be adding requirements to the BSA basic program principals. It's hypocritical at best. It mis-represents the structure of the program at worst. Barry

Our troop became the DE's favorite troop for disabled boys. Our first Eagle was deaf. The reputation was actually a worry for me because we are true boy run patrol method troop. Some disabilities require more assistance than a typical patrol can handle and parents had to make tough decisions. I will never forget telling the father of one scout that we were unable to keep his severely mentally retarded son safe in our troop. He had wandered off into the woods in the middle of a cold rainy night without any clothes and if not for an alert older scout, he could have been really hurt. On the other hand, I have many stories of patrols accepting different scout own even when some of those scouts went out of their way to resist their acceptance. There were NO lectures of how they as scouts are obligated to accept every difference from every scout. There was no reward for being Trustworthy, loyal, helpful to the disabled or different scouts because they were exceptionally different. Why would there be? Scouts are supposed behave that way with everyone. The patrols figured out how to get around the challenges because they had to work together as a team at every meeting, campout and patrol activity. Either work it out, or fail as member of the team. It's that simple. That is why I struggle with minds determined to color the program as something less when in reality very few other youth programs can live up to the BSA minimum program standard. I don't mind badges where scouts can choose to learn more about the subject. But making any a badge a requirement suggest the basic program is lacking and needs a boost when it does not. Such requirements are forced by those being self-serving bureaucrats looking to showoff their self-righteousness Barry.

I've been sitting here thinking about how times I have heard the members of a EBOR ask the Eagle candidate for an example of how they applied the Scout Law and Oath in their life. Usually the answer has something in common with the premise of this subject. National has really missed the boat here. Barry

The problem is the appearance of indoctrination, not education. At the very least the MB has a lecturing knee-jerk feel to it. By the nature of the program's core values, Scouting has always been a safe place. Will a MB change that? AND, there will always be bad acting by unit leaders. Will a MB change that? The BSA already has the core values in place to guide and judge acceptable behavior toward other peoples differences with a proven program method to practice those values. The program shouldn't add more repetitive systematic bureaucracy that does nothing to improve the method of implementation.. If folks at National want to give the appearance a being progressive without the appearance of self-serving wokeness (what ever it's called), they should have shown how the present program has been doing exactly what the MB is implying for over 100 years. There is no controversy because the practice of considering the differences of others is the Scouting program. I'm perplexed how the folks at National are so blind to the opportunity of marketing this program as a program for guiding youth in the habits of being sensitive to others. Barry

My life observation of these things is those with a strong personal opinion for controversial changes are the ones likely to pencil whip (aka process without meaningful results) to insure the ideal is forced in the system (program).. Barry

As usual, National missed the boat by not marketing the program as a natural for developing habits of DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION. They only have to show how the BSA Mission is to develop young people into ethical and moral decisions based from the Oath and Law. But no, National is following the politically correct route and setting an image of making change where none is required. I wonder how many even know their Vision and Mission. I have many stories of scouts and parents telling how the activities or our units changed their sons understanding of other's differences. Lately, I wish I could round up a few dozen scoutmasters to meet with the fine folks at National and take them out to the woodshed for misdirecting the program. They need a proper education understanding why words rarely change behavior without reinforcement of experience. The BSA has always been on the forefront for developing the habits of making right choices.. Barry

You’re probably right. The confusion comes from everyone trying to be the smartest person in the room. Barry

Sorry for my confusion, but what is being debated. Barry

Ironically, using the term in the context of her post is also bigotry. Barry

Your lens doesn't see the heart of man, just actions in a sliver time. Without the heart, anyone (everyone) is a victim or abhorrent, depending on the mood of the viewer. Nobody is safe with that lens. Barry

Of course. But, I wonder, should I be shamed for reading To Kill A Mockingbird in high school back in the 70's? Should the school be shamed? Let's burn it all. Shesh. Barry

I disagree. Barry

As this forum proves over and over, feelings and perception are in the eyes of the poster. My personal observations and discussions with young adults is they either believe the program is either good for youth, or they have no opinion at all. My opinion, based more from this forum than personal discussions, is that perception with people of all ages is based on experience with the BSA. Which is why those with no personal experience don't have really have an opinion. The only adults I observe with a negative opinion appear to have a personnel bent toward the BSA. And that makes sense to me. Scouting is a great program for youth with a noble 110 years of working with youth. Why would anyone have a negative opinion of that unless they have some personal negative experience? Barry

We are on opposite spectrums of how we view the BSA. The posts balance those emotions. Barry

Ironically many of the parents I talked to are considering to not join because they fear that program will change as a result of membership changes. They know what the scouting program was, is it still there? It's hardly; even on the general publics radar. When the news shows rioters tearing down status to eras history, the effect of wins or losses of the BSA have little importance to their lives. Most folks want to get back to normalcy and the BSA hasn't lost that image. Barry

Again, you used the extreme impression of the effect, I have yet to meet anyone who believes in your context. My opinion is the general public believes the BSA has been caught in the tied of social political radicalism. If program hasn't changed, it is still a good program. Barry

Intolerant is to harsh a word for what you think they know. The know that the cultural elitist's have targeted the BSA. That may be good or bad, who knows in the politically corrosive cultural environment. But, they can't recite a personal example of intolerance. Just a generalization. Their image of the program is not tainted by personal experiences. Barry

Your speaking in an endless circle to continue appearing profound. Do you know how many adults today have even heard of the Dale case? I agree with Fred, had National just stuck with the 1960 program, the BSA would be fine. excepting for the last 10 years, every measurable national membership decline since the early 1960's can be traced to some major program change by National. I disagree with Colorado Co, the BSA program was and still is one of the best youth programs in the county. There is a difference between National business policies and program. If we separate each in the discussion, program always comes out as desirable choice for parents. While National's tinkering brought frustration, it was among the users struggling to make a go of a overly complicated program. Barry

LOL, right! Most of my posts on the issue of why scouts join and quit are based on polling and data acquired while I was active. But, many folks don't want to consider it because the data doesn't fit their opinion. Focusing on wrong things is in the eye of the poster. And forum thrive on it. But, my post that seems to have started this misdirection wasn't about changing the program, I was thinking more at how to re-market the Cub program in the short term as an opportunity of getting the kids back to some normalcy. Barry

We have always had to deal with nature of the program drop outs. I've never been able to add up specific numbers because National doesn't give them that accurately, but my gross number guess is that around 70% of Tigers drop out before reaching the troop age. If the main cause of dropping is the pandemic, then that is theoretically temporary. If on the other hand the problem is all the other changes in the last few years, then National has to re-image the cub program. This could be an opportunity to market Cubs as a great program to get kids back in the mix, or as you said, rebuilding friendships. I know parents today are very concerned about their kids isolation. Barry

Ignoring new scout recruiting for the moment, why are cub families not renewing while the troop families are? Barry

Why do you say this? Barry