Eagledad

Be careful about what gets lost and stolen and asking for their insurance to pay. Barry

While I fully agree with the point of your post, there has been no debate, argument or even really a presentation of ideas in this discussion. Read from the very first post and I think you will agree the discussion can at best be described as rehash of Alice in Wonderland. Just the rant as a result of bad grammer should expose the bizarre nature of tone. LOL, then we are entertained by Packs proclamation that we no chance of convincing the other. Of WHAT?, misspelling. Lets at least keep whats left of this discussion honest, there was no attempt to be less than friendly courteous or kinds by most of the participants. In fact, in light of how the discussion (discussion?) actually layed (grammer again) i think there was a tremendous display of friendly, courteous, kindness as well as peace, patience, and self control. Barry

So much anger, so much anger.

Great post Eagle Claw. I fully understand your comments on NYLT. I am a big believer of youth training. In fact I was the council Youth Leadership Development Trainer of which I was responsible for all youth leadership training. From all my years of leading a boy run troop and administering leadership traning for youth and adults, I have concluded it's the adults who really need to attend NYLT. In fact I started encouraging troops to send an adult from their troop to staff NYLT even if they didn't have any scouts attending. not that many took the suggestion. The biggest problem with troops is they don't encourage the scouts who attended NYLT to use some the things they learned. They just don't know how really. So we had our NYLT participants create a list of about 4 or 5 things they wanted to try that they learned from the course. We had the SMs sit with their scouts on the last day of course and create a plan together of how to implement their scouts ideas. Of course we prepped th SMs first to why we were doing this. It worked pretty good. I know this was a little off topic, sorry. Barry

I'm assuming you are asking my opinion of what "boy run" looks from the outside. Independent decision making and group dynamics without the adults. Barry

NSPs aren't forced? LOL. Ok that is a whole different discussion, but with the same answer to this discussion. If two different SMs use the methods differently with equal success, is one program worse than the other? And what if those two different adults went to the same training. I used to have this same discussion with another respected scouter on this forum on our differing opinions of running a boy run troop. He at that time believed there was only one way to run a program to get the BEST results and until everyone was of the same mind (his), they could never achieve his vision of perfection. While I was SM, I guided a servant leadership style program. I know through the years of your post that you did too. But we have a completely different vision as well as completely different program style to reaching are vision. Can you conceive a way to train other adults to use servant leadership without changing their style of using Aims and Methods? Our troop did not put a special focus on advancement and yet we have as many Eagles percentage wise as the Eagle Mill down the sreet that is three times bigger. The only striking difference was the average age of their Eagles was 14, ours was 16. They are known locally as an Eagle Mill, but can we honestly say they don't use servant leadership? How can we measure when a troop uses servant leadership and when they don't? I know a lot of SMs who say they are boy run (including the Eagle Mil troopl) but look nothing like our boy run program. How do I tell them they are doing it wrong? Does anyone reading this thread believe they dont encourage a servant leadership style with teir scouts? I'm not saying National couldn't do a better job encouraging servant leadership, but I do respect the challenge. I'm not really sure you and I agree on the concept and that was how we each ran the troops. Yep, you have to respect the challenge. Barry

I'm struggling here, arent you the one who in past discussions favored patrols with the single interest of earning Eagle, and feel older scouts should move on to Venturing? For any culture to gain footing in a boy run troop, the younger scouts have to learn it from the older role models, don't you agree? Maybe my misunderstanding is that see a "change torward leadership emphasis". I cant imagine a line drawn in the program for a change. I beieve Scouts need to experience a service type program from the day they join, not just a service or servant style leadership, but a servant style culture. Then there doesn't have to be a place designed (by adults?) to change emphasis. Servant leadership is a natural result of a servant culture. Does that make sense, or am I missing you completely? Barry

I still can't see where you are going jblake, but I'm not sure do either. So, since we agree that a change in culture requires a change in top management (adults in this case), is it reasonable for district to consider a change when when the families are happy with program? If the families are satisfied with a Eagle Mill, should there be any attempt to interfer. If yes, then how?

So without conditions, you are a "yes" with Fruits of the Spirit. Just don't call them Fruits of the Spirit. I get it. Thanks

I'm confused where you are coming from and where you are going. Are your original thoughts a segway of something you want to teach?

Ah, I see where you were going. I don't look at advancement as balancing between self and serving others. I look at advancement as actvities for improving skills and character. From the day they joined, our scouts were taught to set small goals to acheive large task. Learn one knot and set a goal and create a plan to learn another. For me it was as much about learning to set goals and create a plan of action as it was to learn the knot. Do that all through the First Class requirements and scouts become very good at assessing large projects and developing a plan to achieve it. Character development also came in through the scouts responsibilities. Typically new scouts were given the task of Cheer Master or Grub Master. From there they were taught self reliance, independence, responsibility, AND service to others through the actions of the job requirements. The task were small, but challenging for the age and maturity of the scout. In fact, I had in my mind a purpose of character and leadership growth for every action a scout performed in the program. Rank was not my responsibility, building citizens of character and leaders of integrity, was my passion. I even told the scouts that if their was something they did that I couldn't justify in developing character, they could take it out of the program. LOL, uniform was the first challenge they threw at me. Kudu and I have compared programs for many years and really the only difference in our basic philosophy is that he thinks the leadership should go to the more natural leaders like Badon Powel did. I build a program of developing leadership skills for all the scouts and let them choose their paths. Otherwise, in my opinion our two programs side by side out in the woods look about the same.

Sorry jblake, I don't understand the first question, isn't "eschewed" opposite of "toward"? I'm sure it's me, my English teacher son says grammer is not one of my strengths. The answer to the second question is that usally any kind of culture change requires new adult leadership. In fact, that is how several Eagle mills in our district proactively changed to move towards a more boy run program. The biggest problem I found with adult leaders of Eagle mills was the fear of doing anything different would risk scouts not getting the Eagle. That sounds obvious, but a lot of adults really can't grasp the concept of the scout controlling his destiny because they may not choose the Eagle. While I was SM, someone asked me why so many of our scouts didn't get Eagle until they were almost 18. I told him that they were busy. He said outside looking in, it could appear they were pushed at the last minute to get Eagle. I told him that percentage wise, we have more scouts age out of the troop than any other unit. Maybe they really are busy.

I said in another thread that for a troop to breed servant leaders, the troop must have a servant culture. Leadership is just one behavioral attribute of many a boy can develop in the troop. A servant culture is one where the scouts consider the team before themselves in all their decisions, whether they are leaders or not. Advancement is just a tool to develop growth and skills. It only becomes a problem when it becomes the vision for stature. First Class is really a set of skills that give a boy confidence to survive in the woods and be a productive part of the team. When advancement becomes a stepping stone of stature, then it will challenges the servant culture because the growth doesn't benefit the team. The worst leaders are the ones who don't try to grow from the experience. If you want a scout to age out of your troop, then use the program to constantly challenge him both physically and mentally at every point of his life. Advancment is one of many tools to do that. The problem with troops that loose scout after they get Eagle is they don't have a program for them after Eagle. Eagle is the goal, so the design of the program ended there. A troop that focuses on anThe troop set Eagle as the highest goal instead of one of many growth challenges. Barry

Great question as always acco. First, The arguement of the bible being written by man is only relevant for folks needing an excuse to not act holy. Next (new paragraph), The conduit of moral education is the honest evaluation of our behavior from the consequenses of our actions and comparing that behavior to a given set of guidelines and parameters. Man has choice, either change the behavior to live by the rules, or change the rules so as not to feel guilty about the behavior. Just like in developing character from the Scout oath and law, the conduit of moral education is "growth" from making the right choices after the review of previous choices. Finally (another paragraph change), in reference with the Fruits of the Spirit, would we be living in a different world if everyone was taught from the day they were born to live by the Fruits of the Spirit? Barry

Some folks are born with a servant style of behavior and are naturals with servant leadership nomatter the culture of the program. But to develop a servant leadership style for all the youth leaders in the troop, a servant lifestyle must be part of the culture. And that really depends on the adults, or more pointedly, the dominant adult leader who is typically the SM. It's very difficult to teach and old dog new tricks because if an older scout wasn't brought up in a servant leadership culture, they struggle to change to any other kind of style. I certainly wouldn't give up hope on EG144, but he has a difficult road a head if his troop culture doesn't encourage a servant style of behavior. I wish him the best, this can be a life changing opportunity. Barry

Khaliela is right, a trusted loyal person doesn't quit when The chips are down. If the election was a popularity thing, then the troop needs you more than ever. You need to show true unselfish servant leadership and be the SPLs most trusted assistant. Those scouts stick out. Good post Khaliela

You are understanding the problem correctly and it is a browser problem. Barry

I read some of your replies to my post and they are a bit out there. I think you must have me confused with someone else because I didn't write anything about the Civil War. I simply spoke a few words on just morality. You kind of went off in a lot of directions. By t he way I'm keeping this response simple, I hit return by mistake and as a result I'm typing this reply a second time. What a mess. My message was simple, as long as man follows man's morality, there will never be peace because man's morlity changes almost daily from ambitioin and greed. God is neither ambitious or greedy and His morality never changes. What did you think of the Fruits of the Spirit? That is a small example of character traits God ask man to display. Kind of like the Scout Law. Barry

The text editor doesn't work. Everytime I try to do a copy, I'm kicked out of the Scouter.com editor. I'm kicked out when I hit return to start a new paragraph. That is why my post are just one big long paragraph. Sorry. Quazse, I used chapter instead of book because I wasn't sure DWise knew the difference. My bad, I oppoligize to both of your. Barry

I've spent a lot of time working with troops with crews and your success is rare indeed. We have one troop in our district that could be viewed as a success because the crew has been around a long time, but the troop is an Eagle mill and very few scouts stay in the troop past age 14. Sounds like you have a good group of adults.

The problem with venturing is that it's used as troop older scout program. The failing of troops to provide a good older scout program motivates the adults to start venturing crews as a way to keep the older scouts in the program. I think we found something like 1 out of 5 venturing crews survived more than three years. And that is a result of the adults who started the crew leaving. The crews that existed when I was in Explorers back in the 70s are still around because they aren't older scout troop programs. They have a program more focused to a theme like scuba, aviation, police, fire safety, and so on. Crews that are started from troops fail because their vision is short sighted ( if they even have a vision) and unorganized (just like their troop). I will agree that National is part of the problem because they switched from using Explorers as a career teaching purpose to using Venturing for reaching out to more youth. It really doesn't matter the theme, the success of a Crew depends on the long range vision (10 to 20 years down the road) and building consistent process plan that continually uses the activities of the theme toward the vision. Sailing isn't just about sailing, it's a constant theme of teaching skills to navigate a complicated vessel to specific destinations. As the crew members get better at their sailing skills, they are encouraged to plan future activities and lead teams to accomplish the goals. Our troop had the largest number of scouts 14 and older of any unit in the council. As a result we were constantly being hit on by the DE to start a venturing crew. I took every opportunity to school council to why our troop program was a success and their Venturing program was not. but I could see they were only acting on higher direction, and ignorance. Successful Crews generally have a sponsor that is well experienced in the theme. Then the passion for activities and growth remain consistent over time even as leadership passes on. I don't think Crews pull away youth leaders from troops unless the troops don't have a satisfying older scout program. We had several scouts in our troop that were also active in different Crews. We looked at it as more outside activities like OA for the boys to enjoy their journey in scouts.

Wow, Dwise1, I just saw all this and we could have an enjoyable discussion. Sadly my Scouter.com editor doesn't work well and you wrote A LOT. But I will give you this, when I speak of my God, I am speaking of a real living God. When you speak of any god, you refer to the actions of man. Until you can at least keep the discussion apples to apples, it will be hard to understand at least my side of the discussion. In simplicity, God is omnipotent, He is perfect. Man is neither, not even close. Oh as for the 39 books of the NT, you said you didn't even get to th epart where Lot was suduced by his daughters. That is in the first quarter of the first chapter of 39 chapters. Barry

Who else saw that the discussion leave the reservation after my first point. Qwazse, I enjoy your post, but I think you're half of the discussion is so deep with slavation that DWise's adolescent view of God can't understand value of religious morality, much less Christain morality. Before I try to contribute on a more pragmatic level, I would like to suggest DWise to do a search on "Fruits of the Spirit" and compare them with the Scout Law. Now on the basis of morality, all folks live by a moral code of some kind. For the sake of this dicussion, moral code is the code we use to define acts of right and wrong. Where mankind struggles is having to follow a moral code with parts they may not agree. Usually folks are willing to take the good with the bad, but when the masses of a society decide to follow only those parts of the code they pick and choose, chaos eventually follows.And then one way or another order will be forced by what I call the person with the biggest stick. Except for the civil war, the United States has had a relativlye peaceful history because the guy with the biggest stick has been the Judeo Christian God. Peace is easy when the majority of society follow one set of rules. Well easy within the context of peace versus chaos. But times are changing, people today or more self centered, which doesn't fit well in a religiously concieved moral code. The main difference between moral code defined by man and code defined by God is that God's moral code is pretty consistant through time, man's code changes fast and often. When man grabs (is given) the big stick, it is usually by political will and that never last long. If a person is truely willing to read the whole bible and understand it from a practical stand point, they will see that man at the core is corrupt, narcissitic and ambitious. The moral code they create is one of convenience that not only helps further their ambitions, but also typically ignores the meek. God has none of those self-centered traits, so the meek are the high priority because the actions of His moral code are selfless actions to enhanse lives of everyone toward a peaceful existance. I believe Dwise is truely an antheist because he appears repulsed by a living God, That he couldn't get half way through the first book of 39 in the Old Testeament or Pauls New Testament guidance of a living God proves it. Dwise does Jesus's simple rules of conduct beause they are obvious actions of peace, he just doesn't like them coming from from an invisible omnipotent source. The God in Genesis doesn't have his fatherly image. Ironic that Jesus is God in both the Old and New Testament. Still Dwise believes in a peaceful coexistance and understands following rules of right and wrong are how we get there. I agree with him about the virtues of Scout Law and Oath. I am curious to see how his moral code can stand up the man who takes the big stick. Barry

NIce blog, you have a good grasp of the bigger picture. I can't really add anything to what honor means because you and the other posters already relayed my thoughts. Well done. You certainly love this scouting stuff. Barry

I'm a little embarrassed to admit I'm entertianed by the hand wringing in this thread. In all my 30 or more years of scouting, the only memories that turn my stomach come from some of the post in this forum. Sadly this seems to be a place where malcontents come to feel good about themselves.