Eagle92

This is one hornets' nest I am running with my life away from. I'm friends with both mom and dad, and I aint asking anymore questions form them.

I'm going straight to the horse's mouth, the Life for Life Scouter, next time I see him, to find out what happened

I've found a few places that sell reproduction M1911 campaign hats (rather pricy though). Does anyone know if the early BSA campaign hats were the same as the military ones?

 

I think the soft campaign hats are much more functional than the stiff - need a hat press - campaign hats of today. I'm a scouter, not a DI.

When I was awarded my Smokey Bear after completing BA22 way back in the day, It was brand spanking new and very stiff. 45 minutes after getting it was very well broken in because all of us got caught in the outer bands of a hurricane.

Base,

 

Actually, the SM was the one who told me the scout gave up. SM encouraged him, told him what needed to be done several months ago, etc, but "No one is going to give it to him. He has to do the work." I know dad had a hard time saying that and living up to it, but son knew all along the deadline.

 

Mom on the other hand, the one who called me up and told me the first story, is not happy about the situation, or the ex whom she thinks is not getting involved enough to fix the "problem."

 

Again I think there is a lot more behind this.

Base,

Actually, the SM was the one who told me the scout gave up. SM encouraged him, told him what needed to be done several months ago, etc, but "No one is going to give it to him. He has to do the work." I know dad had a hard time saying that and living up to it, but son knew all along the deadline.

Mom on the other hand, the one who called me up and told me the first story, is not happy about the situation, or the ex whom she thinks is not getting involved enough to fix the "problem."

Again I think there is a lot more behind this.

Sorry it had taken so long to get back to this post. Busy with family, work, and Scouting. Going to post and then unload the car from the camp out.

1) I want to thank everyone for their advice. Kinda figured as much, but wanted to see if anything was missing.

2) I also want to apologize to everyone. I sometimes go off half-cocked, getting involved in something without knowing all the details. I admit I still don't know all the details, but after RT on Thursday, I talked to another friend involved in the situation, and got a different story on the situation.

So here is the different side.

Scout, realizing he had 2 weeks to complete both a project and 5 merit badges and would not be able to do so, gave up.

I know, lots of unanswered questions.Ans I think a lot more to the story.

Adults act as a patrol. Use the same cost allotment as the boys when buying food. Cooking competition is held during every campout for the Saturday evening meal. PLC sets the theme. Patrols plan menu, buy food and cook to meet the theme. Started out a few adventurous adults would wander around and sample patrol meals. Very quickly patrols decided to make a presentation plate and deliver to the adult area. Troop rules are no Ramin, no poptarts, no hotdogs. Troop has at least one dutch oven for every patrol. Box oven making and cooking presentations are given annually. Level of cooking improved dramatically within 3 months of themed competition.

the old How-To-Book has the plans.

Real easy to make. Need cardboard box, aluminum foil, and STAPLES ( emphasis)

Basically put fopil all over the box, allowing to cardboard to be exposed, and staple the foil to the box. Tape comes undoen in the heat.

I put in two brick to elevate a pan with charcoal, and then larger bricks to elevate a grill over the charcoal.

I've cooked cookies and pizza in one.

Need some advice here. Got a phone call from a friend telling me the son's Eagle project was not approved due to, "lack of time." The district Eagle BOR approves the projects and meets once a month. problem is that they didn't meet last month due to weather conditions. Scout went to them last night to get approval, and tell them that he has everything ready to roll, and the Eagle BOR said that there isn't enough time to complete the project before his birthday next week.

Some background on the scout. This is the one who had to take a sabbatical from scouting for a year or so for family reasons. When he got back involved, after seeing some of the Eagles being produced locally, he didn't care to get Eagle. But a couple of summers on summer camp staff, and some positive peer pressure from camp staff friends, and he's been busting it. I worked with him on a few MBs a few months back, and I know he stated that some of his summer camp staff friends promised to help him out on the service project. And I know that the entire troop is pulling for him. He also has the OA chapter's support behind him as well.

But the district Eagle BOR said, "NO." Any advice I can give my friend, and more importantly the Scout?

Is anybody really surprised that companies like Disney continue to withdraw support for Scouting? It didn't matter which side of the gay debate you were on, most of us guessed that the half-assed change BSA came up with would satisfy neither side.

 

So, no army of gay youth waiting to sign up and no increase in corporate donations as a result of the change. Worse yet, membership took another tumble and more big companies are sending their coin elsewhere.

 

Has anybody seen FoS numbers for their council? I'm guessing they've taken a tumble too.

 

 

I also know we lost and entire troop over the vote.

But I also know that a lot of families are lowering or not giving to FOS due to the economy. They are hurting, and do not have the financial resources as they have once had.

SM Bob,

Yep, look good and take naps, that's what an SM is suppose to do at camp. I admit I'm planning on being bad this summer I want to recertify as a lifeguard and get those other aquatics certs. Next year I am hoping to nap.

Tokala,

Now that I think about it, you're right. last time I worked summer camp, 2001, most of the units did rely on the camp to do programs every night. Kinda sad.

I still remember being the provisional SM one summer camp and the "troop's" campfire. Most of the scouts were in my home troop, were pyros, and I knew how they built fires. I thought I was being smart when I said, 'Do not light it until I see it." I have to admit, they waited until I entered the campsite and saw the 5 foot high log cabin fire for the troop's campsite program nite before dropping the lighted match onto the fire.

Camp director saw the fire a few hundred yards away, was impressed, and assigned the provision troop the job of building the closing campfire that week.

SM Bob,

Were you a Scout as a youth? I ask because if you were not, then some of the things us old fogeys complain about may not make sense.

YOU ARE 110% CORRECT IN THAT SUMMER CAMP SHOULD BE FUN! (caps and bold not only show emphasis, but shouting at you in agreement in a very positive manner, still a Cub leader )

The problem that some of us old fogey's are seeing is that more and more camps appear to be focusing solely on merit badges, and not enough on the fun. They have classes running all the time, and do not have as much in the way of campwide, nighttime programs, except Opening and Closing Campfires. They are offering "paperpushing" MBs at night. Some camps no longer offer free shooting, free archery, free boating, etc.

I remember in my youth MBs only being offered in the day light hours, with the exception of Astronomy. Sure a MB may be doing something one night, i.e. wilderness survival camp out, CPR training, etc, But for the most part you had campwide games and activities at nite. I remember playing staff Manhunt with staff members having watermelon bounties on their heads. I remember the OA Powwows that had the Indian Lore MB participants involved with them as well I remember the intertroop competitions that occurred. And I also remember the "Staff Night Off" where each troop came up with their own program. I remember the campsite campfire. I remember the rootbeer float cracker barrells ( and stopping the Canadians from shaking up all the rootbeer when they were with us one year).In looking at the schedule for the camp my son is going to this summer, there are no non-MB activities listed at nite. I do hope that is an oversight and they are developing them as they get their staff together.

In the afternoons, There were 2 hours on the schedule for free swimming, boating and shooting. That allowed folks who already had the MBs, were interested in the MBs, or just wanted to have fun in those areas, a chance to do so. It also gave an opportunity for those who needed practice in those skills a chance to do so. According to t eh schedule I got for my son's summer camp, there is only 1 hour of free swim, boating isn't listed so I will assume that's open too, but no free time for shooting sports.

Again from what I am reading, hearing from Scouts who got to camp now, as well as camp staff, the emphasis is on MBs. Little to no real programming at nite. I am told that the reason for this change is due to parents' expectations. But they don't realize camp is suppose to be FUN!

And the emphasis on earning MBs is even coming from SMs now. I remember both my SPL and SM advised me to take First Aid and Swimming MB, or instructional swim since I didn't pass the swim test, take 2 other MB, 3 if I wanted to push myself, and then have fun with free swim, boating, and shooting sports areas. Most of use would come back with 4 MBs, 5 if we pushed ourselves. But I've listened to a SM complain that a scout didn't take MBs during all 7 or 8 class periods. I've heard a SM complain that a scout decided to skip a MB he" signed up" for (OK the SM told him in no uncertain terms he would be taking this MB and the Scout wasn't interested) in order to take the Kayaking BSA class he really wanted to do ( SM was ticked because he "should have been working on a MB when he was goofing off.")

So yes, some of us old fogeys are concerned about the changes in summer camp programming and emphasis.

Now to my disclaimer. When I first got a hold of the Summer camp leader's packet, good to have friends on the camping committee and give you a copy of it before it is published , I went into typical Cub Leader mode and going way overboard. Thankfully I stopped myself, looked at only those thing classes I am interested in, BSA Lifeguard, and the new water safety certs BSA created when they watered down BSA lifeguard.

I then passed along the MB list for my son to look at and decide what to take with this caveat; "You will NOT take any paperpushing MBs at camp. You are to have fun and try things you want to do." Son then said he understood, then proceeded to ask if he could take Shotgun Shooting MB. With both pride in that he understood the real purpose of summer camp, and regret because of the answer I had to give him, "No, son, I think you need to focus on Rifle Shooting MB first, focusing on and perfecting the basic skills first before you work on Shot Gun MB."

Most troops I've been involved in have the adults cooking and eating separately. 3 troops I've been in, (Brownsea 22 training troop, JLTC troop, and high adventure "troop" I went to Canada with) had adults and Leadership Corps/Staff as guests of the patrols.

Personally I prefer adults on our own as we get better meals

I think you need to have a chat with your son and see what he wants. If he wants to move on, talk with the SM.

In my experience, most Webelos IIs are chomping at the bit and raring to go into Boy Scouts. I know my oldest son's den was like that, and so far so good. I have not seen any real problems with new scouts and older scouts.

Me personally I do not think a Crossover should be later than March of 5th grade. My reasons for that are the following:

1) give both the parents and scouts time to get to know the troop before a week at summer camp Sometimes even if mom knows the leaders, it's hard convincing them to let their sons go to summer camp. Heck it took me about 6-8 months to convince SHMBO to let our son go to summer camp, even if I have to go with him ( and to think I was going to fight her about that , as my son's ASM stated, "ARE YOU CRAZY, SHE"S SENDING YOU TO CAMP FOR THE WEEK!?!?! ).

2) Give time for Scout to raise the money for summer camp. I joined my first troop at the end of May and only had 3 or 4 weeks to prep for summer camp. No way could I get the money in time to go.

3) Get the scouts "accepted" for lack of a better term, with the troop. For whatever reason, summer camp is a bonding time with the scouts in a troop, and if you miss your first one, you are way behind not only skills-wise, but socially in the troop.

BSA is definitely NOT "out of the necker business".

 

BSA National Supply has a number of options for neckers, including a custom necker -

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa-neckerchief-with-universal-emblem-embroidery.html

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/screen-printed-bsa-emblem-neckerchiefs.html

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/custom-neckerchiefs.html

As Col Sherman Potter, USA would say "HORSEHOCKEY!"

Ok a few comments from a former pro. Can the BSA salaries for top execs be high, yep when you compare to the average working stiff out there like you and me. But when you compare to comparable level execs in the private, for profit industry, it's small potatoes.

I know when I was a DE, I had a bunch of friends who when they left, would double, and in one case triple, there BSA salary. I've stayed in the non-profit sector, so I've haven't lucked out like them.

Yep, national is getting out the necker business, and my son's SM freaked out after hearing about it. Apparently the PLC had just switched necker styles from their original pattern from way back when, to one of the few styles that remain. Now they are thinking about going custom.

As for neckers being used for first aid. 1 story and 1 bit of advice

When I was teaching First Aid MB to a troop, I was using some on my neckers as bandages. I started talking about how BP made neckers a part of the uniform because of their many uses, including first aid. Later on, The SM tell me a story about how the patrols in the troop were penalized by the camporee inspectors for not having enough triangle bandages in the first aid kits. SM protested to the head judge "how can my patrols not have enough triangle bandages, when every single one of them has one around their neck?" The patrols got their points back.

Bit of advice, never use a necker signed by Green Bar Bill.

One of the reasons the scout camps are so expensive is because they keep increasing infrastructure which is expensive to begin with and then the maintenance costs. Too many are trying to be mini-resorts which happen to do some scout stuff. Focus should be on the woods and camping.

http://www.scouting.org/ncap.aspx

Camps are being judged on infrastructure. I got some issues with that.

My Cub Scout pack held the line at $60/ year w/o Boy's Life, $72 With it. I see it going up.

Oldest's son's troop doubled their dues this year. Went from $.50/ week to $1/week.

Again, BSA has no ban on sheath knives. But some jurisdictions do ban them.

Supply use to sell a replacement chinstrap that matched the hatband, but when I looked for it, I didn't see it though. I used leather bootlace for a while after I got my first one. We were told to bring bootlace to use as chinstraps when we completed Brownsea 22and received out Smokeys for completing the course way back in the day.

You can try a surplus store as they may sell them, but it will probably be black.. I lucked out, when I went to Parris Island for JROTC trip, I purchased a black patent leather one for my original Smokey. Eventually I got a brown leather chinstrap from national that I wear with the second Smokey, as it is in very good shape still.

As both BD and Peri pointed out, the hardest thing is transitioning from CS leader to Boy Scout leader, even for those of us who know better. One reason why I am glad I am only able to help out occasionally with the troop, usually when they go camping or when the pack is not meeting.

My personal expereince: One meeting I took over from the SPL, getting the older scouts together to organize how I wanted them to teach first aid skills to the new guys, i.e. handing out them the latest first aid info, aksing them who wanted to teach which skills, basically acting how a SPL would when organizing his instructors.

Luckily I was able to talk with the SPL when it was pointed out I stepped over the line (THANKS BD!). I apologized for taking over, but also talked to him about the process I used and how it can be used with the troop.

While the BSA does not have a ban on sheath knives, I do know some councils do have bans on their premises, mine does, and some units will ban them, usually the result of a previous incident or accident and people overreacting.

I also know that some cities and counties do have bans not only sheath knives, but also on knives over a certain size, even if they fold. Believe it or not, some of your BSA lockback knives like these:

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/campin...-inerlock.html

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/campin...nto-blade.html

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/campin...rta-lkbck.html

and definately this one

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/campin...ack-knife.html

are illegal to own in certain areas of NC because they are over 3 inches,

On a funny side note, IMHO most accidents are preventable if people follow commons sense, and for Scouts, the Whittling or Totin Chip rules.

My expereince with a "ban" on knives was actually with my JROTC unit in high school. We were doing a field exercise the same weekend drill team and color guard had to do a ceremony, so I showed up late to the FX. While preparing for the FX, we received a list of things we could bring if we had them, and that included a knife. So when I changed from my blues to utilities, I attached my bayonet to my pistol belt, along with other stuff I had.

When I showed up to the FX, I got a lot of stares, and eventually someone told me the Senior Marine Instructor confiscated all the knives after the battallion CO cut himself on his knife when he was goofing off. So I had better but my knife out of site. While I saw the bandaged hand on the battalion CO, I also saw his knife still on him and thought my friend was joking. So I ignored him.

Eventually my cadet captain comes up to me and says I need to put the knife away or the SMI will confiscate because the CO cut himself. When I asked why the CO still had his knife on him, my cadet captain shrugged and said, only cadet officers and SNCOs would be allowed to have knives, and since the CO was a cadet lt. colonel, he got to keep it, despite being the cause of the ban.

My knife then moved from my pistol belt to my pants belt, and was discretely covered by my utility coat. I know one Marine Instructor knew i had it on me, and I think the SMI may have noticed the knife, but nothing it wasn;t confiscated.

My advice has been to get the project over and done with ASAP! I've known to many people who had everything but the project completed, or had to rush their project to meet their 18th birthday.

If I read Evan's bio correctly, he was involved with Venturing when it came out in 1998, and HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER! It is just exteremely frustrating to see national changing the 14-20 yo program every 15-20 years. there is no stability, to "branding" etc tec.

Again I have mixed emotions.

I took the old SM Fundamentals as an 19 y.o. Eagle. Having been in a 'hiking and camping troop" that was youth run, going through Brownsea 22, and also a 64 mile canoe trip in the Canadian Wilderness, the outdoor portion of the course was not a challenge. I did it becasue it was needed. But in all honesty it was a waste of time.

But, as we all have seen and heard, there are Eagles out there who I wouldn't trust in the outdoors. So I like the idea of the skill testing that national allows, i.e. show all of the the skills and get credit for the course. But I also like how if you cannot do the skills, you gotta take the course.

A few comments that are ancillaries to this conversation.

1) Does anyone else who have taught IOLS think the syllabus promotes the 'One and Done" mentality?

2) Does anyone else see a correlation between Eagles who can not do basic outdoor skills and those who either earned their Eagle in from 1972 - 1979 time frame ( when Improved Scouting Program was around and camping was not required) or are in troops whose leaders were involved in Scouting only during this timeframe until now? I just realized that a troop that is having major challenges in their ouotdoor program right now also has an SM who got his Eagle under the Improved Scouting Program.

Thanks all for the continued advice and coaching.

 

We'll be going back to visit again. Perhaps it was a great meeting, but my son & I didn't realize it. Perhaps it was a bad week, not indicative of a regular meeting. Or perhaps they are not the Troop that will excite my son. I just don't think we saw enough to know.

 

To add a little more background. We have camped with the CO's Troop many times. They usually invite the Webelos to join a camping trip once or twice a year. As a cub leader, I usually attended these. My son has joined me several times. When we do camp with them, we interact with the Boy Scouts - but generally camp with the Troop adults or in an area set aside for the Cubs. The trips have been fun and we've enjoyed going. These trips are generally organized by the Troop adults, so we don't see much of the Boy Scouts in any sort of capacity other than participants - really just as older peers to the Webelos.

 

I'm fine with chaos and a lack or order. I think I was just hoping to see more "activity". Scouts breaking off into groups, working as patrols, etc. Again, perhaps we just hit the meeting at the wrong time.

 

One strength of the CO's Troop is some pretty neat trips - in fact in the parents meeting, we heard all about the trips. Yet, it makes me worry that the Troop is all about the trips, but they don't focus as much on developing the Troop as a unit. But maybe that's OK?

 

Deep down, I'd like him to find a Troop that will help him grow and challenge him. I think a Boy led troop would be better for that (as opposed to Webelos III) . To be honest though, I'd just like him to find a Troop that excites him - at least a little. I worry that he joins, does it for a year, then is bored. If he'd jumped in the car after that meeting and said "I want to join this one". Given that we have experience with that Troop, I'd have been happy with that. I'd also have been happy to let my own concerns go to the side. If it meant I needed to help out with the Troop at some point, I'd do that too - though it is not what I'm neccessarily planning to do. I was so involved in the pack and his den that I'd like him to be able to have some space from always having Dad involved. If I do tag along, grabbing a cup of coffee and a chair sounds like a great idea

 

Needless to say, all this has reinforced that we need to see more and to see some other options. I'll also be sure to take Eagle92's suggestion of looking over some older posts to see what to look for.

 

Thank you all