Eagle92

Brian hit on a key part, DLs need to know how to utilize their DCs. When I was a DC, I worked with three DLs. One treated me like a CS, and at the end of the school year I switched to another den. 2nd DL let me do things and worked with me, but the 3rd DL, a WDL, let me run a lot of the meetings and activities that had an outdoor emphasis. Some of the things I did with my ex-DC were the follwoing 1) gave him the link to the Den and Pack Resource book so he can print out his copy of lesson plans. 2) See what activities he felt comfortable doing, and letting him in charge. 3) using his Scouting contacts to help with den, and pack actvities. (My DC was also an OA dancer, and we had some chapter dancers come out first toa den meeting, then by popular demand, redo the den meeting for the pack.)

DCs are a very tender subject for me right now since I had to give mine up to the Webelos since they needed someone with extensive camping expereince when their old DL left. A good DC is worth their weight in PLATINUM, and if utilized correctly are a great asset. they have the outdoor KSAs that some Cub leaders haven't developed yet, they cubs worship the ground they walk on, and they can be an asset in programing if you use their strengths. Man I miss my DC.

Nike, Actually you don't need ASMs to be there, just one registered leader over 21 and with YPT, and one parent. SOOOOOO Get mom, dad, or both to become a MBC or committee member!

Forgot to add, in '83's defense, I have seen some Sea Scouts wearing the BSA uniform shirt with the green loops and tan Sea Scout strip, as well as blue loops with the First Class Anchors on the loops. Ditto some in the green and gray Venturing uniforms. Grant you that's not official Sea Scout uniform now, but as someone stated on the seascout.org boards, some units still wear their "piratical costumes" and the uniforms in the traditional way, i.e. bugs on covers, unit numbers, etc.

Yep National did say in the literature prior to the CUs coming out (May 2008) that ODL uniform elements were interchangeable with the CUs, so you could have someone in a CU wearing red loops, red and white numbers, and an old red and tan trained strip (although it might not fit above the "smokes pocket" flap ), and someone in an ODL wearing the new stuff.. IMHO the release of the CUs was a huge SNAFU as the information on it changed several times, especially in relation to Cubs and their leaders. I know that it caused some "irritation" with parents and leaders, and I still see "vintage" August 2008 - April 2009 uniforms among leaders, and a few Webelos who go ahead and buy the green and tan numbers instead of a new set of red and whites that they will wear for a few months.

Actually I need to research West more to have a more thorough opinion. I know the early years of the BSA had it's "challenges," and that BSA history book on the early is on to read list. But besides the necker issue, you gotta admit that the best thing he did was hire William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt to write for the BSA.

Well National did publish a great book on the topic of Ceremonies in 1992 or thereabouts, and one of the things discussed was recruiting members. IT DOES WORK IF FOLLOWED!!!!! (caps for emphasis). I did rebuild a chapter's ceremony team using it to the best of our abilities, and we were great. BUT we did have a numbers problem, as the book wanted 8 folks, and we barely got 6. A couple of things off the top of my head. 1) Need an energetic, enthusiastic, and knowledgable Coach, whether youth or adult. 2) Gotta ask folks, and ask, and ask and ask and ask. Oh and you gotta ask some more folks 3)6 months is what the book recommended, and I agree with it, as the absolute minimum for getting a ceremony team together. And that does take a commitment 4)Gotta make it fun. I know with AOL/Crossover ceremonies, the fun is getting free food, and the adoration of the Cubs (hey I didn't get this big without eating some good food ) You gotta do some non-ceremony stuff as a group just, as wella s just have an occasional goof off/blooper nite ( towards the end of the 6 months is best IMHO) More later

Hi Old OX! If you go back to my Monday, 3/28/2011: 10:32:49 AM post, the third response to the OP, I do note that West's memo was superceded, much to my chagrin as I am an old Fogey . Now grant you the Monday, 3/28/2011: 8:23:48 PM post may have been a little subtle on the matter. Plus you had to read one of the posts above it as well as know a little BSA history,the CSE at that time resigned b/c of the Urban Emphasis, to get the fact that units decide, so mea culpa on that one.

AMEN. Now on to the hijack: That is the situation I am in, largely rural council. So getting folks together is a pain. When you have more urban councils, it's a lot easier.

No one ones to take the time to do them right IMHO. At least the team doesn't read from a script at a podium like I saw in one lodge I was in, I...KID...YOU...NOT!

Jet, That's something my lodge does need to work on. We have only 1 Pre-Ordeal, and 1 Ordeal Team. No others. Last Ordeal i think they did 2 PO and 3 Ordeals

Jet, In ref to the situation I described where mom is active and could be eligible, the reason she was not nomintated last year was b/c the SM was nominated instead of her. Unfortunately she is no longer involved in a troop, focusing on Venturing now, and on the district level, so hopefully she will get nominated by the district this year. As for why we have such a small ceremony ring, ours goes back a ways.

SP, Please read my post at Tuesday, 4/5/2011: 8:47:23 PM I already discussed the 90+ minute phone conversation, so your argument on that point is moot.

TF, I like your list and I do think it is doable for the most part. May I make 1 suggestion? You said Suggest each Troop have a parent's orientation the night of OA elections, pass out the pamplet and explain the whys and wherefors. If the parents hear this info once or twice before their son is elected and can ask questions before their son is even eligible, you will go a long way to eliminating conflict because they will already accept the situation and accept the conditions if they are attending. I admit I do not know how feasible the above would work with parents, since I have not seen parents at elections. I do know it works with the Scouts as I have seen 10 eligible Scouts in one troop state they are not interested in the OA once the heard what it entails prior to the election. Now what I have seen work, and it's my suggestion, is a Chapter's Candidate Orientation/Social. My chapter uses one of their meetings to invite all candidates and parents and has an info session. We go over what to expect at the Ordeal weekend, what the OA does year round, what some of our goals are (we try to get Arrowmen to attend at least 2 major events a year: one work, one play), etc, etc. Most of the candidates questions are answered, and ALL, stressiing ALL, of the parents questions are answered. Parents questions that need to be answered away form the candiates are done during the social portion of the meeting. I've found that it is a great ice breaker, great way to get info out to those who need it, and gives everyone a chance to meet everyone. Now I admit we do not get 100% of the candidates and their parents to attend. Hence the phone calls by the chapter to candidates and their parents reminding them of upcoming Ordeals. But I cannot remember anyone not going to a candidate orientation that has not gone through the Ordeal. Again just a slight modification. Hope someone form national is reading this idea of yours.

Ok I cannot comment 100% on this topic, but this I can from my expereince at least. When I went through BROWNSEA 22 (BA22) back in the day, it was advertised in my council as the youth equivilent of Wood Badge for scouts. Scouts removed all insignia, except council strip and the troop # 22. Most of the adults on staff had either completed WB, or were workign their ticket. Youth Staff had completed BA22 When you completed the course, instead of beads, the council awarded you a GI surplus campaign hat, aka Smokey Bear, and the only folks seen in my old council with Smokey Bears were adults who had completed WB and Scouts who completed BA22. Six years later, when the council did the Junior Leader Training Convefence (JLTC) it was again advertised as the youth equivilent to WB. All adults on staff, save 1, had either completed WB, or were working their ticket. I was the only non-WB adult, and they accepted my BA22 training as equivilent. Since the council had not done a BA22 or JLTC in 6 years, 3/4s of the youth staff went through Instructor Course at Philmont (sorry cannot remember it's exact name, but beleive it was the National Youth Trainer Trainer Course). Those adults who had their beads already had their Smokeys. Those adults working their ticket, and youth staff received a GI Surplus Smokey Bear. They even gave me a new one since my BA22 one was "field expereinced" Once the JLTC participants completed the course they too recieved the surplus Smokey Bears, since WB beads are not authorized. My gut feeling is that NLYT and WB21C are equivilent, minus the ticket, since Adult NYLT staffers can earn their 3rd and 4th beads.

Actually the topic of her attending was never brought up. She heard and read a lot of garbage on the internet about the OA, kind alike the branding stuff someone mentioned previously, hazing, etc etc. She couldn't understand how an organization like the BSA would allow the hazing and other garbage to occur and she refused to let her son do anything degrading to be in a "honor society." So the conversation was about what is actually done at the Ordeal, how what she has read and heard about is 110% garbage, and my response to personal favorite question of hers, "Why doesn't Mr [previous SM] and Mr. [new SM] know anything about the OA?" To which I responded " I haven't met Mr. [new SM] so I don't know anything about him, but [Old SM] is a Vigil Honor member of the OA, was the lodge chief, or head youth for the entire council, and served as a section officer over 1/2 of the state. He knows more about the OA than I do, and can tell you the exact same thing I am telling you if you ask him." Maybe your right, I am putting too much into the ceremony because I have been involved with the ceremony team as both a youth and an adult. But the ceremony is not the important thing, the expereince of the new members is the #1 concern. And as I have said I have seen some of the meaning and purpose diminished because it did become a family affair. But as I have repeatedly mentioned, and it seems to be ignored, if the parents want to come to the ceremony, THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO (caps for emphasis, ok maybe a little shouting since I keep repeating myself ) I do not want the ceremonies ruined for other participants. If folks are respectful and unobtrusive like they are not there, I have no problem with parents watching. It's when you folks begin interfering with the ceremony by constantly moving around to get a better view of their son, taking video, flash photography, etc and start ruining it for the new members that I have a problem. EDITED: Short, it was my post they are referring to with a 90+ minute phone call.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Dennis, No disrespect, but where exactly did I say I would not allow parents to watch the ceremonies if I tried every single means to alleviate their concerns about the OA? I never said I would not allow parents at ceremonies. What I did say, and have implied, is that I have serious reservations about having non members attend. I've seen first hand the disruption that having a family attend did cause. It is not something I liked because it did spoil it for the other new members, and I think the CS brother will lose some of the meaning when he goes through. I did say I would do everything in my power to allay their concerns. And I have dealt with concerned parents before, to the point of having a 90+ miute phone conversation with one concerned mom. Heck I even told her to talk to her son's SM if she didn't beleive me as he is a Vigil member, and a past LC and section officer! The conversation was very detailed about the entire Induction process, and short of quoting from the actual ceremony, she knew everything that was invovled. Now would I discourage a Scouter from seeing the ceremonies, yes because the ceremonies do have a meaning and purpose, and knowing about it advance will lessen the meaning and purpose for them when they do get nominated. But as I have said, and said repeatedly, if the parents ultimately want to come, that is their right. I just hope they respect the other participants going through the ceremony.

Since this is a revived thread, I'd give an update. Did the box oven and learned two things. #1 you can use to much charcoal #2 Don't use cheap pans to put your charcoal in as it will burn through the pans and the box.

Being told your 7 and 5 year old want to camp the entire weeklong trip to visit their grandfather. Not only to and from, but also in his back yard.

That is what the Call Out Ceremony is for: top publicly recognize those who have been selected to be in the OA. I know in my neck of the woods, we have parents, grandparents, etc show up at the camporee where the Call Out is done. Usually that is the giveaway on who is selected. Luckily our Call out is done in conjunction with the opening campfire. Now in reference to parent's trusting leaders, completely understand that and I agree. That's why I strongly encourage adults who are Arrowman to get back involved, and attend events they can make, esp if they have youth form their unit involved. It's also why I also think the OA needed more visibility, at least in my neck of the woods, a few years back b/c we had leaders who were Arrowmen, and the parents in their own units didn't even know it. Kinda sad when a past LC and section officer who is a Vigil is a SM, and none of the youth and parents you talk to even know he is a member of the OA, let alone what he did back in day. I also know of one protective parent whose son was elected. Knowing him, I knew he would have had some serious concerns, but when he came to our chapter's candidate welcoming meeting with his son which explained alot and met some of the leaders involved, he knew me personally, and had seen several of the others helping out at camporee. IT does make a difference. As for some of the garbage that has happened in the past, I cannot say that it doesn't still go on in some places. But I can tell you that in the 5 lodges I've been in, it isn't tolerated. If a visitor would sit back, be unobtrusive, I'd have no problem. But my fear is that it will turn into something like a HS or college graduation with people hollering, blasting air horns, etc during the ceremony.

If you got your pack from national supply, there is a lifetime guarenteee, and they will replace it. When I worked for them, we replaced a 30+ year old pack with a new pack.

But that's the thing, others do show up wanting to watch. It opens the floodgates Another challenge I can see is ceremony sites. My current lodge has very limited room in it's site, in fact the most # of candidates is about 40, and members wanting to watch have to fend for themselves for room. If everyone's parents show up to watch, the only area that will be appropriate will be the campfire ring at camp. Another part of the problem as I see it is parents not wanting to let go. Parents do not want their kids doing things on their own these days, treating them like children. I see it almost everyday with the number of parents calling my job asking how they need to go about setting up their child's job shadowing for the child's graduation project. I want to scream "HELLO THIS IS YOUR CHILD'S RESPONSIBILITY WHY ARE THEY NOT MAKIGN THE CALLS AND SETTING IT UP?!?!?!?!!?!? (caps are to express my thoughts with these parents, not screaming at members of this board). Heck I had one student, who after 2 months of trying to arrange a place for them shadow in, yes we have that many students and it took that long, get upset and made a scene in the area I was finally able to place them in because it was not the area she wanted. When I told her she did not indicate that specific area and that this was the best we could do, momma calls again asking why her daughter was not placed in XYZ area, since that is where she wanted. When I informed mother that XYZ area was not indicated, just a general field, and that XYZ area is not allowing job shadowing, she gets upset with me. I'm sorry for the rant, but it just seems as if no one wants to give their teenagers any responsibility and trust these days, they just want to do everything for their kids. I see it with these projects, I see it within BSA with the loss of patrol camping, no more homemade stoves, etc.

It's been down since before Jambo if memory serves. Unfortuatley a few folks spoiled it for everyone as there were some very long and drawn out arguments that were not very scoutlike.

In reference to having parents attend an Ordeal, I must respectfully disagree in that I do think that everything, and I do mean everything, should be done to alleviate their fears, and having them attend only as a last resort that they insist upon. The only, stress only, time I would prefer not to share information with a parent, and this is my preference, would be if the parent is active in Scouting and would be eligible for nomination themself. But again while I would prefer not to share that info, I will if need be b/c parents have everyright to know. Why would I discourage having parent's attend? 1) It DOES take away from the ceremony from everyone else. My lodge did allow this to happen one time, and there were some complaints, both from old and new members. 2) Sometimes parents go a little too far. In the situation above, not only did mom and dad show up, but also grandparents and little Cub Scout brother. Yep they turned it into a family affair, and it was obvious that they were there, again taking away from the other new members' expereince. In addition to bringing everyone to the ceremony, they also started to videotape and photograph the ceremony. Luckily we did stop them from that as it is not appropriate. 3) Sometimes there is a difference between concern about the OA, and wanting to watch your son's Ceremony. Again I kinda got involved in a domestic dispute between a Vigil dad, and troop committee/ crew AA Mom over son's ceremony. She wanted to watch, and I told her that it really would spoil it for her if she saw what happened before she gets nominated. And she is on the eligible list.

While this may not be consdiered "camping" for most, if the patrol wants it, let them do it. It may be a good learning expereince, or team building expereince. Now here is what the G2SS says: Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings...Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activitieseven those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. Notice it did not say both adults have to be leaders, nor did is specifyu what positions can go camping. A MBC is a registered leader, a committee member is a registered leader, etc. So if one parent is registered as a volunteer in any capacity, and has taken YPT online, you are good to go.