eagle1977

gotta agree that if the knife is closed there is no foul. I think we are expecting too much from boys if we do not allow them some simple mess ups! They are, after all, learning to be better citizens I don't think we should beat them up every step of the way.

Just MHO

Daddy_O, like the others it seems to me that you are the driving force here not your son. Attaining Eagle is an accomplishment that requires some perseverance, some personal drive, some getting wet in the rain, some getting hot and sweaty (and down here in the South a lot of bug swatting), some cold and uncomfortable times in winter months, but most importantly, it requires determination and desire to grow and achieve a personally set goal.

You seem to be only interested in his sporting achievements and activities. Your personal history in Scouting should not be a limit or become a stopping point for him if he truly wants to continue. From the last paragraph it sounds like he needs to work a little on his inter-personal skills. I know that you have moved around because of your job, but, you say he has no real buddies in his Pack. The Troop experience can and will lead to lifelong relationships with his Scouting buddies.

Finally, you said "If this doesnt work out we wasted a LOT of time and energy. Like most others in todays economy, my job is always at risk. We may move again (I hope not) and thats so disruptive of everything WE do!" What has been wasted? Has he not learned anything in his Cub Scouting experience that will assist him in team building on his sports teams, helped to become a little goal oriented, or simply a little better person? If not I wonder if his Arrow of Light was awarded in the same fashion as you are looking for his Eagle to be awarded!

Just an interesting point . . .the council I belong to has adjusted its Wood Badge training to Thursday - Saturday. I was told that this was to appease the LDS members. However, after reading this thread I wonder if it might not have been to appease everyone!

It is one thing for the typical American consumer to succumb to the desire to save a few dollars on imported goods for their families. But, it is something entirely different for the U. S. government to resort to the same mentality as it did by nearly awarding the construction of the KC-135 supertanker for our air defense services to Airbus. I know we are currently allies with the European Union, but, what happens should times get rough again and we are forced into another war on the continent? Are we going to be able to rely on replacing lost aircraft, or rely that the computer systems already in place do not contain some sort of Trojan horse software?

Strong defense is more important than anything else.

The level playing field issue is really nothing but a cop-out. It really gives the corporate heads a reason to export all our labor to other countries. In those other countries they do not have to worry about meeting environmental conditions as set by our government or pay their workers a fair living wage. They get to exploit the workers and their environment in one fell swoop. Cheap labor and no worries from governmental agencies . . . priceless.

Guess I will miss out on the pie then!

SctDad just because you asked:

"Williams' successor, Robert Mazzuca, who's been with the Scouts for 38 years, was paid $377,617 in 2007. His deferred compensation of $322,237 includes $252,204 set aside in his supplemental retirement plan and $49,167, which is the incentive to stay with the Scouts that he'll collect only if he does." http://www.seattlepi.com/specials/scoutslogging/398082_scoutfinances30.html

This may not include all types of indirect compensation that may be extended to Mr. Mazzuca, he may also have a driver or a car for personal use, he may have a low interest rate on his mortgage, among other perks.

I was glad to see that BadenP included the CEOs and not just the unions in his statement. The steel companies of the rust belt did little or nothing to update their furnaces or other production processes throughout the 1960's and 1970's, while our competitors in Japan and China were building new state of the art steel mills. Sure the unions kept up their demands for more compensation but the companies were at fault too. A fair living wage would be a nice thing for an American to expect in return for performing a job. But as others have pointed out here we are all guilty of spending our money on the cheapest available product rather than seeking out a product that may last a little longer and cost a little more. There are quite a few "dollar" stores in my little community. They must be doing a brisk business in order to stay open.

I think I would be willing to pay a few dollars more for a uniform if I thought the money would stay in America. But even after receiving those sweet no bid contracts from the government to supply goods and services to the war efforts, Haliburton decided to take their corporate headquarters "off-shore" in order to lessen their tax burden. Can't seem to trust the American corporate folks to stay in the country.

SctDad if you are referring to me in your get off the anti-military rant, you can stand down, sir. I am an Army veteran of 12 years and I do not have an anti-military bent in anyway. I have done my fair share of pushing several CONUS and OCONUS installations deeper into the ground. Simply put I was saying, rather clearly, that these boys are not a paramilitary force and not subject to UCMJ. They are in fact merely boys seeking a path to being successful adults. Why can't we all simply remember that and let them have fun, learn from their mistakes without belittling them, and grow under our tutelage. I was never punished either physically or psychologically in the name of Scouting (accept that time my brother, as my patrol leader, had us all pick those little black jelly beans along the trail:))

If a lad does something that alters the enjoyment or health and safety of other Scouts then, by all means, there should be a consequence for his actions. Cleaning the latrine after someone willfully sullies it is a lesson in practicality and can be handled without being demeaning. However, saying that behavior x, y, and z will result in your cleaning the latrine is not a productive means of instilling discipline.

If we want to have Scouting thrive and continue into its second century then we need to be mindful of the changes in the processes of discipline. The boys are not seeking admittance to the Citadel or West Point. They are seeking an opportunity to be with boys their own age and having fun in the outdoors. If we can instill learning and maintain the fun atmosphere we have accomplished our mission.

I like the way mafaking is looking at this. We are not creating Marines and we are not supposed to be a paramilitary organization. When you are in uniform as a member of the military follow their rules and do as they say. The need for absolute obedience to rule and order is a military objective. However, why should we subject T-1, struggling to learn a new way of interaction within the troop to having the strictest of discipline and order? They are not soldiers subject to UCMJ!

Did a google:

http://members.cox.net/scouting179/Eagle%20Famous.htm (look at Aquila J. Dyess for the name of six Eagles)

But of course it is after all the Internet so you will need to judge the source yourself.

I have searched Ebay and other google suggested places to no avail. Does anyone know why 2007 tabs are so hard to find?

thescout:

okay I'll bite. Just how devoted to the freedom of speech are you? Do you think that it is okay to burn the American flag?

Beavah,

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but you said:

"Me personally, I think it's very hard to find many wars that were started or perpetuated solely for religious reasons. Far more often any claimed religious basis was a veneer coverin' the root causes which were economic and sociopolitical."

When Pope Urban II called for the Crusade in 1095 to rid the Levant of the godless Muslims he did it in the name of the Catholic Christ. Regardless of your current religious belief Catholicism was the only Christian belief at the time. Urban was so influential that he had the crowds and the subsequent Crusaders chanting "God wills it" whne they reved up for battle or worse yet when they killed someone else.

Since the creation of a diety to worship there has been an ever present desire to convert "non-believers" to the only way to God (the way of the fighter, of course).

Therefore, I submit to you that more people have died in warfare over religion than over territory alone.

I may be a little short sighted here, but, oh well. . .

I am a veteran of 12 years in the Army and proud to have been able to serve. I am a volunteer adult Scouter and I am proud to be in that position.

When I am at a function in civilian clothes and not representing BSA I simply cover my heart with my hand out of respect for the flag. I no longer use the hand salute because I feel that I am no longer an active soldier. I do not question others and the way they show reverence to the flag.

However, when I am in my Scout uniform I render a three finger hand salute. This is simply because I am attempting to set the proper example to the boys I have volunteered to assist. The three finger hand salute is the proper way for the boys and I should show them that I support them and their program.

Funny, I thought was my role in Scouting, to be a mentor and lead by example.

92,

I have already had to break that news to him . . . he is an eager beaver, though, we may need to tie him down that evening!

77

Hal,

now that was just down right funny, thanks.

Just to take this one step further in the vein of no secret ceremonies. My son's troop will be going to an out of council camp this summer. The camp offers a "Scoutmaster Merit Badge" for completing a number of activities during the week. Another ASM is not OA but is interested in attending the Ordeal Ceremony, which is one of the items listed for the MB. Any harm in that? He was not a Scout in his youth but is very active in his sons Scouting activities.

Seems a little funny to me that this thread has gone on for 9 pages and nearly a month now. The seeder of the thread, AlabamaDan has not been back to comment since 17 Feb. Guess he got what he needed and left us in the dirt.

Appears to me that faith is a personal thing and best left that way. There are way too many opinions and unfortunately way too many people die from disagreeing with one another.

Yet, I think that the best minds have difficulty wrapping themselves around the concept of faith. Even after reading Ren Descartes "Meditations on First Philosophy" I am still not sure that even he was able to prove faith. I am certainly not capable of discourse on the levels of a philosopher or a metaphysic so I will simply continue on my path in the wilderness and gaze in AWE and WONDER at the nature available all around me.

GWD, maybe you and I can start our own organization, lol!

I think the letter you wrote to the Webelos and their parents was very good. However, I would beg you to please use the correct spelling of Webelos in your letter. Webelos stands for we be loyal scouts. So there needs to be an "s" on the end.

I think it is beyond admirable for you to take on this role. The boys will definitely benefit from your efforts. Since they are soon going to crossover to the boy lead Boy Scout program you can begin to give them a little rope and let them assist you in the selection of the activity badges they want to earn. Their inclusion in the planning process may lead to better achievement in the long run. Keep in mind the progress requirements for Arrow of Light and guide them toward that goal.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Kittle,

I am on the other end of the child scale than you. As the father of four wonderful children (three girls 21, 18 and 18 and a boy 10) I can now see certain that your actual interaction with your children is very limited. The other evening my son came to sit on my lap to watch a TV program. While it was a little uncomfortable for me I knew that maybe even tomorrow he will never want to do that again. I am just now returning to Scouting after a nearly 30 year sabbatical. I think that I will give my son all the attention he requests. We are bridging to the same troop at his request. Wood Badge is calling me too but I can wait!

Kinda makes you wonder how we ever survived middle and high school back in the day, doesn't it? I was always scared to death to climb the rope and ring the bell. But what a wonderful sense of accomplishment when I finally succeeded!

My son faces a different problem than anyone has addressed here. He will not be crossing over into the troop sponsored by our Pack's CO. Instead he has decided to join another troop in the district. We attended troop meetings as the announced, and one would assume planned on guests, at several local troops. Only one was receptive and seemed genuinely interested in gaining new members.

I understand the boy led method and I also understand that it is ultimately the responsibility of the boys to recruit new members. However, if the Scoutmaster makes no effort to greet the second year Webelos, or their parents for that matter, when they attend their meeting what makes them think they will gain any new members.

I think it would be great for my son to be accepted warmly into the troop of his choice by the SPL and presented with his new green loops. It is a rite of passage and I think the crossover should only be held for those remaining in the Scouting program. It should also be held at a separate ceremony than the AoL.

Eagle90,

I agree with you, of course. But what a major undertaking that would be. I hope their troop is actually big enough to pull it off!

I think I have to agree with Gern about dilution. There is a distinction that is special to each Eagle Scout. Generational legacy, overcoming particular hardships (like learning to swim when deathly afraid, or any similar thing) but rather simply that earning Eagle is an individual accomplishment.

However, nine separate ECOH's would take an awful lot of energy!(This message has been edited by Eagle1977)