eagle1977

I sure wish my older brother had known about LNT back in the mid 70's. My patrol and I spent a whole afternoon picking "black jelly beans" that seemed to be all over the trail on our nature hike!

As a returning Scouter of just over eighteen months after having taken a few decades off. I wanted to share my thoughts on this subject. I was an active youth member attaining Eagle at 17 along with a palm. I also earned the recognition of my faith and earned a Catholic religious medal. Now that I have returned to Scouting I proudly wear my two youth related knots. I look around at some of the other Scouters in my district and have many f the feeling already expressed in this thread. However, I would like to be able to show my renewed dedication to Scouting and be able to wear an adult related knot or two. Perhaps simply the Scouter's Training Award would be enough for me.

I went to Philmont in 1975, also. We went by bus from western PA with an itinerary similar to yours. Our bus driver was very experienced in the trip having driven the council contingents there for several years and used it as a vacation with his wife while we hiked. (His wife flew out and met him in Denver.)

We stayed at military bases most of the way back and forth which was very cost effective. Visited Carlsbad Caverns, Six Flags over Texas, and even spent an afternoon in Juarez, Mexico. Wish I had good memories of La Junta though. Most of our crew lost all their patches from uniforms and shirt-jacs during our short evening there. Our council never stayed there again.

Truly a life changing experience!

807-H-4

I was astonished to see a Code of Conduct posted in my son's pack meeting room. There was nothing but negative statements of what they could not do. Way too many statements of No this and No that. When my wife and I suggested something more empowering; telling the boys what they could do, more along the lines of the Scout Oath and Law we were scoffed at.

I think we, as adults, tend to lose sight, from time to time, about this being a program about the boys. I am my pack's advancement chair and I have to constantly remind myself of the importance of recognizing every achievement every boy makes. I forget they are 7-10 years old. I forget that they crave attention and desire acknowledgment.

I have also had to point out to another adult leader that we are there to provide a positive environment for the boys. We are not there to brow beat every little transgression we perceive. At our recent Webelos weekend we had a very long flag retirement ceremony. This ceremony occurred at 9:30 on Saturday night. The boys had been up since 6:00 a.m. and had been going strong all day with little or no break. Another adult took offense to three boys talking quietly during the ceremony and really balled them out afterward. My question to him was, was it worth scaring those boys away from the program out of fear of him? Unfortunately not all parents hold patriotism and ceremony in the same high regard as many Scouters do. But aren't we there to nurture these boys and to attempt to show them a path to becoming better citizens?

I think we would all be better served if we simply followed the 100 year old ideas that fostered Scouting in the first place, the law and oath!

Thanks to all that took the time to respond. Many great ideas and suggestions. We know one of the lifeguards at the local Y and I will follow up with him to see if there is a procedure already in place for this.

Is there a requirement of having a BSA qualified lifeguard to earn this pin?

mmhardy, perhaps not too much tongue in cheek. Even you pointed out in your last post "the recent U.S. Air Force decision to buy tankers from Airbus rather than Boeing". The Federal government wants to buy everything for nothing.

Unions have become big business themselves. They pay the white collar people too much, not too mention the blue collar worker. CEO's are obscenely compensated for their input to the bottom line. Insurance companies of all types are simply legalized swindlers, they charge large premiums and return as little as possible to the insured when they are in need. People complain about the trial lawyers and how they are ruining our society. I think rather it is the insurance company refusing to pay on a claim that drives the common guy to the trial lawyer.

We have been watching, too quietly, from the sidelines while this country has been slowly melting away. We have witnessed the decline and fall of the once great steel industry. The owners sat on their laurels and did not return their profits into modernizing their mills and the unions continued on their upward salary spiral. The Japanese steel makers beat them out. The Big Three are doing the exact same thing today. (But they are in fact too big to be allowed to fail IMHO.) We Americans as consumers have allowed the outsourcing of our once proud manufacturing jobs to other lands. We have done this by not demanding products made in the USA. Even the new Boy Scouts of America uniform is made in China. It is not simply labor that has been sent off-shore it is everything all the way down to tech support operators from India and Pakistan. Where are Americans expected to work these days?

We have allowed two of the largest corporations providing service and support to our deployed military to move their corporate headquarters off-shore to avoid taxation on the no-bid contracts they have been awarded. Hundreds of billions of our tax dollars are leaving America and never returning.

If the foreign auto makers can not, or will not meet our CAFE standards then they should not be permitted to sell their product in our country. Fining them has not accomplished anything. After having lived in Germany for four years I know their environmental rules are much stricter than ours. You may not even idle your car for more than 30 seconds on a cold winter morning. They will shutdown the Autobahn when there is too much smog in the air. So somehow I miss the point where we allow BMW to simply ignore our CAFE standards.

I think we are facing some very bad days ahead. Wonder if we will learn from the economic crash of 2009 since we did not learn from 1929.

Why are we not addressing the actual problem here? How can we continue to act as though We, the People are not at least part of the problem here? We do not want to pay for a automobile that is too expensive. We do not want to assist in paying the cost of supporting a living wage (and to those of you that will say it, I do not support the excessive union caused wages, they have long ago abandoned the role they were established to attain!). As an American I would not be willing to pick lettuce, tomatoes, or any other back breaking agricultural product for less than the money required to feed my family and pay my doctor visits for back pain.

Our problem is we want it all for nothing. We want to fill our tanks for nothing, even though we know that oil is a ever diminishing resource. We want to eat fast food for nothing and we are not concerned about the poor schmuck that has to prepare it for us (or his/her three kids that need to eat too).

Americans seem to be pretty good at talking the talk, but we are certainly not good at walking the walk.

Let's bail-out the financial markets, you know the companies that are TOO BIG to fail. But what about the Big Three where one in ten American jobs are related? No way, let's allow them to fail. We can always buy foreign cars. Why can't we just invest all our money in foreign banks too?

It is simply amazing to me that we Americans are willing to place the blame for the current economy on anyone or everyone else. Look at the rise of the big box stores throughout this country. When was the last time you visited your local small hardware store to purchase the nuts and bolts you needed? When was the last time you shopped in a locally owned grocery or department store? We want to earn the highest salary and only pay the bare minimum for the goods and services we need to survive.

The rise of Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Kroger's and other nearly national chain stores providing our wants and needs at bargain basement prices have been the death knell for our economy. Wal-Mart used to be the bastion of the American made product. However, I dare you to find more that a dozen American made products in your local Wally's.

It is very easy for us to sit back and blame the management of the "Big Three" and the UAW for the trouble that they are experiencing. But the bottom line is that the consumers are not buying locally made products anymore. They are too expensive. It is better for us to buy the products produced in the sweatshops of the third world than to support our fellow American workers.

I, too, blame the greedy unions. I think they have long outlived the effectiveness. I think that happened when the front office personnel started earning the same salary as the owners of the companies. But I also blame the greedy owners (read the stock holders demanding ever higher dividends and stock splits)and the low life CEO's that earn as much as 255 times the average worker.

OGE mentioned Bethlehem Steel and its demise. I remember the Steel Curtain of Pittsburgh very well. The steel barons blamed the unions and the unions blamed the company. But there was little or no reinvestment in the industry which led to its downfall. The Japanese were on the forefront of innovation and now we buy our steel from them.

I personally find it abhorrent that any company will negotiate and promise a work force a certain retirement benefit then reneg on that deal after the worker has given them thirty or more years of faithful work. This happened to my father, he was left go from his sales job with a company after 19.5 years of work. No pension for you!

I think we all need to live the Scout Oath in our day to day lives. Perhaps that would solve ouy problems.

It is simply amazing to me that we Americans are willing to place the blame for the current economy on anyone or everyone else. Look at the rise of the big box stores throughout this country. When was the last time you visited your local small hardware store to purchase the nuts and bolts you needed? When was the last time you shopped in a locally owned grocery or department store? We want to earn the highest salary and only pay the bare minimum for the goods and services we need to survive.

The rise of Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Kroger's and other nearly national chain stores providing our wants and needs at bargain basement prices have been the death knell for our economy. Wal-Mart used to be the bastion of the American made product. However, I dare you to find more that a dozen American made products in your local Wally's.

It is very easy for us to sit back and blame the management of the "Big Three" and the UAW for the trouble that they are experiencing. But the bottom line is that the consumers are not buying locally made products anymore. They are too expensive. It is better for us to buy the products produced in the sweatshops of the third world than to support our fellow American workers.

I, too, blame the greedy unions. I think they have long outlived the effectiveness. I think that happened when the front office personnel started earning the same salary as the owners of the companies. But I also blame the greedy owners (read the stock holders demanding ever higher dividends and stock splits)and the low life CEO's that earn as much as 255 times the average worker.

OGE mentioned Bethlehem Steel and its demise. I remember the Steel Curtain of Pittsburgh very well. The steel barons blamed the unions and the unions blamed the company. But there was little or no reinvestment in the industry which led to its downfall. The Japanese were on the forefront of innovation and now we buy our steel from them.

I personally find it abhorrent that any company will negotiate and promise a work force a certain retirement benefit then reneg on that deal after the worker has given them thirty or more years of faithful work. This happened to my father, he was left go from his sales job with a company after 19.5 years of work. No pension for you!

I think we all need to live the Scout Oath in our day to day lives. Perhaps that would solve ouy problems.

Welcome aboard, Frank from a former PA resident. Lived for 28 years in Altoona and Indiana then I joined the Army and have been rather nomadic since.

First a little background . . . I live and volunteer my time to scouting in a military town (I am in my first year as a returning scouter after a significant break). The overwhelming majority of our cubs and their parents are either members of families with active duty soldiers, reservists, or veterans. Our local division has been deeply embroiled in the second Iraq War, having led the invasion and with subsequent redployments.

Now to the issue . . . the Pack Leader, his wife, and several other leaders and committee members wear yellow ribbon pins on their Class A uniforms. Is this authorized?

Okay, Bob White, you win. I am going to concede your point. I realize now that most of my youth career in Scouting was simply an exercise in "urban legends". Even my Bobcat badge was pinned on me upside down with my Den Leader intructing my parents when to turn it upright. I will simply quietly remember to myself my adventures at Philmont.

Hmmm, I wonder if the admonition I heard whispered to me during my Ordeal was simply an urban legend, too!

Bob White said, "I am sure that in your training as a scout leader and a professional scouter you also learned that the BSA program and its traditions are not determined by clerks at a scout shop in New Mexico.

The tail of the bull's tail is an urban legend. It simply is not true that you must climb the Tooth in order to sew the tail in a pparticular position. You were misinformed. There was no way that as a 15 year old you would have known.

The question now becomes, do you know now, and will you choose to continue passing along the false information or will you help others to understand when they have been misinformed?"

I have never implied that I am or ever was a professional scouter. I am quite simply a person that felt transformed by youth scouting experience and have a desire to pass that on to my son. I do not find comfort in any misinformation, as you see fit to call it. I do, however, relish my experience at Philmont and to me that includes the bull's placement on my jacket.

As to the traditions of Scouting, I am currently at a loss to respond effectively because I have been out of the game for quite some time. If you will be kind enough to give me a little time I will respond in a separate thread. I am quite sure, though, with a little bit of digging around one could probably find a groundswell among the scouting community that turned into an official policy. Like maybe the right pocket flap being "reserved" for a lodge patch . . ."Let's stop right here. The Order of the Arrow, Scouting's national camping and service honorary, has established that the right pocket flap of Boy Scout and Scouter uniforms is where they want Order of the Arrow insignia and ONLY on that location. Why?? It has to do with the traditions of the Order of the Arrow and there is a justification for wearing the flap on the right side of the uniform." (http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/rfront.htm)

Seems that mentions tradition.

Bob White said, "The only comment that I and others have made is that that there is no significance to the position [o]f the tail."

I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with you because it has significance for me.

Bob White you said, "Wear the tail on the bull whever you want it does not signify ANYTHING." I think that is where the problem lies. To many of us that have been to Philmont, on a trek, it does signify something. As has been stated by many of the participants of this thread we were told by the staff at the Tooth of Time Trading post how to wear it depending upon how we treked. We did not simply make it up.

I did not decide with malice to sew the bull's tail over the shoulder. It was never my intention to disregard a uniform policy. I simply did it because I was instructed to. What else was a 15 year old scout susposed to think.

While you say that you implied no harm you continue to imply that those of us that wear the bull over the shoulder are doing it wrong. Also, you directly say that we are spreading false information.

As I have stated previously, I was informed by the staff at the Tooth of Time Traders on how to wear the patch. I think from having read the posts here that I was not alone. We were simply following what we thought was a "tradition". Perhaps the staff should be told to stop their suggestions!

Bob White says "Seems if enough scouters do the wrong thing for a long enough period of time...before you know it...you got yourself a 'tradition'."

Seems this is turning into a knock down drag out fight. Certinly not my intent when I replied to this thread. However, I am not entirely sure the harm done by following what you believe to be true, especailly when nearly every respondent has the same story about why they placed the bull as they did. I, personally, meant no disrespect to the BSA.

"urban legend? seems that if it has been around for years, it makes it to "tradition" status. when i went 20 years ago, no one in my troop had ever been. i heard about the tail over the shoulder in the trading post at philmont. "

I agree with this statement. While I completely understand that neither the BSA Uniform Guide nor anyone "high-up at Philmont" has an official position on the matter of the tail's placement it is certainly more than an urban legend. The only difference from Bulldog's statement is my conversation took place 33 years ago. Claiming that it is a mere urban legend tends to take away the significane placed on the tail's location by others who placed it there on good faith.

If asked I will continue on in telling my tale of this tradition.

"The insignia Control Guide has the exact location for the Philmont Bull and the Charles L Summers Loon that is also worn on the red jac shirt on the shoulder in the same location."

Having just looked at the site I did not see a relevant topic in the list. Could you please provide a link?

As to the myth . . . I was a young and impressionable scout when I was told by my Ranger that my crew would be able to wear the tail over our shoulders since we climbed the Tooth. Would be interesting to see it in writing from the BSA though.

I was simply going with the flow of some of the other posters. I have seen references to watching the sun rise from the top of Baldy, so must one climb to the peak at night? Or is that just another tall tale related to some people and their Philmont experience?

I guess I can wear the tail over the shoulder on both accounts then. My trek was just over 70 miles and we climbed to the top of Baldy (in daylight) and over the Tooth. Interesting details about the new jac-shirt. Mine is in the attic because I have not been active for a while. I am now renewing my interests to encourage my own 10 year old to participate in Scouting.

I proudly wear the bull over the shoulder seam on the left side of my jac-shirt. The reason for this is I was told in 1975 that I was entitled to this placement because I climbed the Tooth of Time.

Don

807-H-4 (1975)