dsteele

You just made the mistake of offering a professional an opportunity for free advertising. However, I can not (nor will I) tell a lie. So I can personally guarantee that this is a true story.

I was a DE, SDE, SDE m/p and District Director in a class 600 council. For more information on council classifications, ask the question in the council relations forum. I'll be happy to answer. A class 600 council is a medium size council. One of it's summer camps was lauded as a premier camping facility. They have two of everything and it's a very nice piece of property.

I never particularly liked it, but 2,000 Scouts a year disagreed with me. Actually, I never disliked it either. As long as I've named it specifically, I'll have to say that it's a darn good camp, especially if merit badges are your cup of tea.

Then I went to a council and was the Field Director. I didn't directly handle camp operations, but Camp Napowan is enjoyed by thousands of scouts and troops from that council as well as others. It's also a great Scout camp.

So, I have to admit that when I came to a Class 700 council, the one that owns and operates R.S. Lyle, I had low expectations of the camp. It was one of the first camps I've heard of that didn't even have a dining hall. I've always had a dining hall camp.

So, in my third week here, I had to go to Lyle to assist with the camp certification process. Instead of thousands of campers, we camp hundreds. I'll admit that I was worried about meeting all of the standards.

There's only one reason I'm admitting this much -- these guys blew the doors off my expectations! The staff was excellent. The camp met every standard. The patrol cooking enhanced the true meaning of the program. The kids earned (on an average ratio, according to my estimates only) as many merit badges as dining hall camps.

I was impressed. The camp visitation specialists, who were from another strong camping council, were equally impressed. They also admitted that they hadn't expected much from our little camp, but that they were going back to their own council to try to implement some of the things that are just part of the deal when you go to R.S. Lyle.

Sorry to ramble on, but as far as I'm concerned, R.S. Lyle has a lot to offer.

However, as my grandfather pointed out when I asked him about the small college that ended up being my alma mater . .. "You can get a good education anywhere," he said. "The education is more up to you than it is to your instructors." I think the same can be said about Scout camps.

Enjoy your experience.

DS

Gsmom -- thanks for 'fessing up. Now I don't have to be the brunt of the jokes. Okay, actually I find the people on these boards to be very friendly and respectable.

KWC, it sounds like you and your family really managed to dodge the bullet and that it went a long way toward easing your son's fears of big storms.

If I can share a funny story . . . (of course I can. You can scroll past it if you'd like and I'll neverk know.)

When I took emergency preparedness merit badge, the cold war was at it's height. One of the topics was how to survive a nuclear (although I think they still called it atomic) bomb. One kid said there was a specific position to assume when you heard about a coming blast. He said you hunker down, put your head between your knees and kiss your sweet patootie good-bye! The MB counselor tried not to laugh with the rest of us, but she wasn't successful.

You mentioned that the air was very still and very quiet. I know that feeling. Was it also like looking at everything through an amber haze and a lot of ozone? Been there. It doesn't mean it's time to do my little buddie's "atomic send-off," but that it's time to seek immediate shelter.

Glad you're okay.

DS

So, ozemu, what IS that sfuff? It looks and tastes like motor oil to me. Kraft may own it, but it isn't cheese. Of course neither is American cheese, but that's a horse under a different wrapper.

DS

Ox and Dale --

Again, welcome! Pardon me if I'm a bit distracted. I'm watching Katie Curic doing the Tonight Show while I'm writing this. Contrary to the opinion of those who sited me for writing while on vacation, I do have a life.

I'm glad to see (God it pains me to call you this) young people getting involved in commissioner roles. The resources need to be read and you've both agreed to that. My point is (and I think you'll agree) that Scouting can be learned, but passion must be self-driven. You've both demonstrated your passion in a single post. Good job guys!

I share the frustration over Venturing. The crews are starting and fading equally quickly in some cases. Remember, this is a program that's only five years old. We're all learning our way around it -- from the newest crew leader or member to the top levels. Compared to Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, Exploring, and even Learning for Life, the current (I say that because there are people who were involved 50 years ago who were Venturers who will rise up and smack me around. Isn't annoying when I interrupt myself?) Venturing program is new. It's still in development.

Hang in there and keep commissionering. Don't be afraid to use your youth to try new things . . . and let your council commissioner (who is also probably a representative of your council to national) know what works and what doesn't. The council commissioner can report those things to the national meeting and they might lead to important changes in the program. Sometimes, it's good to be new!

I will point out, although I probably don't need to, to both Dale and OX that age should not be written off. There's lots of experience out there. Not all of it is correct, but not all of it is wrong, either.

Whether you're young or old, there is a place for people of good moral character in the Boy Scouts of America. I think the BSA set the age requirements for each position for good reason and will enforce those rules.

The minimum age requirement for Commissioners is 21. As I said before, there is no Scouting background requirement. Give the young a chance to serve, but don't let them fail through lack of resources or lack of training.

OX and Dale, in addition to the printed resources you've mentioned, get a copy of the commissioner guidebook (I'm not sure of the correct title, but that's close enough.) It will help. Attend your district commissioners meetings as well as the training. Don't be afraid to talk about your concerns and happinesses with your units. There will be years of scouting experience in the room and you'll find yourself one of the "grey beards" at a young age.

FYI -- I'm 37, but was a DE at 22.

DS

If there's anything my wife and I or the youth and units of the Southeast Wisconsin Council can do to help you or anyone else effected by the disasters, please let us know. We'll do all we can.

I'm glad to hear you're okay, hops!

DS

How about KWC? I hope it's just a lack of power.

I have been near enough to enough tornados to know their power. But the power of Scouting is made of sterner stuff. If you need anything, let us know. I'm sure someone can provide it or the means to get it.

DS

Hi Hops!

I'm assuming you were directing your question to KWC57 -- who lives in Oklahoma City. KWC I hope you're okay as well as your family.

To answer Hop's question, I'm in Wisconsin and all we had were some high winds, but no tornados in my neck of the woods. I've been through several, however, and they're never fun. One went over our heads and ripped our Baker tent (which had no floor) off the ground and sent it flying about half a mile. The only reason we were okay, other than being scared and wet, was because our Scoutmaster had us camp in a gully that day.

KWC57, are you okay?

I do know from watching Fox News Sunday, that the American Red Cross needs donations for their disaster relief fund due to the high number of tornardos this May. The number, if you want to give is 1-800-help-now. I'm not affiliated with the ARC at all, but called the number yesterday and easily gave them some money. My wife didn't even yell at me!

KWC -- we hope to hear from you soon. You're in my prayers.

DS

Bob:

I must confess that I'm at home ill and don't have my advancement guidelines in front of me. But I am glad you asked for clarification. I did not, by any means, intend to contradict BSA advancement policies.

I believe the phrase "A Scout is tested" is used in the advancement guidelines. Like I said, I don't have it in front of me. What I meant when I said I wasn't going to get involved in the debate was that I wasn't about to argue what "tested" means.

To some it means he ought to know all the knots, have the fire-building skills, and so forth. I think what you and I believe is that we're testing whether or not the Scout is a good example of a Scout.

I should be able to go back to the office tomorrow and will happily look up what the Advancement Guidelines say about boards of review. I believe, but honestly don't remember offhand, that there are some guidelines in there that would back up what you and I both are saying.

If you'd like to look them up and post them, it won't bother me a bit. I just don't have them at home and am very interested in taking a nap on the couch in a moment.

At any rate, I have never allowed nor brought, a piece of rope to a board of review. I'm sure someone will point out that I was a Scoutmaster and not part of the board of review. I was there, however. I was there to provide comfort to the Scouts and to keep the adults in line. I always tried to keep the parents' collective minds on what is important. The values we find in the Scout Oath and Law.

Everything else is but a means to an end.

DS

I'm going to throw in my two cents here (not in disagreement with anyone in particular, so don't get jumpy )

I think that there is a process in place that is designed to make sure That the "powers that be" are all in agreement that what we have before us is, in thought and deed (I didn't say knots!) is a true Eagle Scout.

The Scoutmaster conducts a Scoutmaster conference. In my opinion (I'm not quoting chapter and verse, so feel free to disagree) the Scoutmaster is one of the people most knowledgeable about the candidate's worthiness and readiness for the rank. The Scoutmaster also has to consider the reputation of the troop to the community in general and ask himself/herself . . . can I be proud to be part of the awarding of this young man his Eagle?

When I was a Scoutmaster, I tried to keep the Scoutmaster Conference invisible to the Scout. We'd simply find ourselves slightly away from everyone else and discuss philosophical issues. I knew whether the kid knew his knots or not. I knew what I thought of his character. In fact, I didn't do those little chats until I thought he was ready. Yes, I realize I'm crossing philosophies with a lot of you. I'm not saying yours are invalid. They just happen to be mine. At the conclusion of these little chats I would inform the Scout that he'd just had a Scoutmaster conference and that I thought he was ready for his next rank.

Of course, after a time or two the kid figures out what you're doing but also realizes that it's not a grilling. It's a chat.

I'm not going to get into whether boards of review should test the Scout's knowledge. That is mostly left up to the unit to determine. Or council/district board of review as the case may be.

I will make two statements of personal philosophy -- these are not necessarily the opinions of the Boy Scouts of America, just little ole' Dsteele squawking . . .

To me the most important part of being an Eagle Scout is character. I admonish all Eagle Scouts to never let anyone be surprised when they find out that they are an Eagle Scout. They carry with them the reputation of all Eagle Scouts all day, every day and for the rest of their lives. Mine included.

Then I tell them the story of the recently divorced young lady I went to pick up from her father's home for a date. There was a delay as she finished getting ready for the date and I had an uncomfortable silence with her father. He looked at me and said, "Why should I let you date my daughter?"

I didn't flinch. I said, "Because I'm an Eagle Scout."

"So was her ex-husband," he growled. Ouch!

It's a true story. But I think most Eagle Courts of Honor take it a little too far and I've never been criticized (at least to my face) for lightening things up a little.

My second point refers to a couple of threads I've seen where people wonder if someone truly deserved the Eagle Scout rank due to age, etc.

The point is this . . . we all carry the reputation of the BSA and that of the Eagle rank with us. In order for a candidate to receive the badge, he needs the approval of his Scoutmaster, members of the board of review, the district advancement chairman, the committee chairman, the scout executive and the national office. If one of those people does not believe that the Scout deserves the rank, they should not sign off on it. There is an appeals process in place for Scouts who feel they were wronged. Those are rare circumstances and should not be taken lightly.

Should an Eagle Candidate have to go on "Face the Nation?" Not, in my opinion, if the troop leadership has done it's job correctly. If they have, it will be readily apparent to those who know them (if the BOR is done at the troop level) and quickly apparent to those who do not know them well (if at the district/council level) that we have, collectively, created an Eagle Scout who will do us proud for a long time to come.

Holy crow -- how did this soap box get so high. Jeronimooooo . . . .

I'm outta here.

DS

JB brings up an excellent point as well. It happens to be one I've been either making or trying to make for years (with varying degrees of success.)

A unit commissioner does not have to have any Scouting experience. Granted, it's probably best if he/she does, but nowhere is it written as a requirement. I happen to think that lists of Eagle Scouts from the past is an excellent source.

Let me quickly point out, however, that "inexperienced" unit commissioners will need immediate training and training that is beyond commissioner basic. They'll need New Leader Essentials and any of the program specific training you can get them to take. They'll need the latest copies of all the resources available to commissioners and no small degree of passion for the job.

Start them out by having them work with your strongest units. They can be excellent at providing the unit with information on current activities, etc. and the strong unit can go a long way toward teaching them the program.

I once suggested to a district commissioner (I was the Field Director at the time) that he recruit young Eagle Socuts who had just graduated from college to help him fill his commissioner staff. He snarled, "How is any 22 year old with no leader experience as a Scouter supposed to help a unit?"

I said, "If he's interested, I'll hire him tomorrow to be a District Executive. If I can teach him to work with all of your units, why can't you teach him to work with three?"

I never did manage to change his mind on that one. Of course, he didn't change mine, either, so I guess we're stil square.

DS

OX:

Welcome to the forums. I hope you'll enjoy them and get good stuff out of them.

Mark, thanks for the kind mention. I try.

Talking about lawyers in the troop -- When I was a Scoutmaster, I recruited a corporate attorney to be the committee chair. He did a good job. The only problem was that he takled in his sleep about his cases. The cases he talked about happened to be a nationally visible product liability law suite, so at least his midnight discussions with himself were interesting.

I did, however, wish for thicker walls on my tent.

DS

Homesickness is a real issue. Responses vary by Scout.

When I was an assistant camp director, I generally didn't allow Scouts (or staff) to call home. This was a tenant I learned at camp school. I made only one exception for a camper. We had a first year camper who had a single mom. Apparently his Dad, when the parents divorced charged the boy with "taking care of his mother." Well, by the time we made it to Tuesday, the kid was worried sick about her. I talked to him and could see that he wasn't home-sick, but was afraid of Mom living on her own. I let him call and she assured him that she was perfectly fine, but that she missed him. She also assured him that she could make it through until Saturday.

The kid was much relieved and stayed, happily, for the rest of the week.

I also experienced a new Scoutmaster who bought $5.00 phone cards for each of her first-year campers. That was the only time I've seen 6 of 10 or so Scouts go home during the week. We tend to lose them forever when that happens. Phone cards! Jeez.

Oh --

I almost forgot the point I was going to make. One year, when I was a 14 year old staff member (camp director had hired me as handicrafts director. The rule hounds know he shouldn't have done that, but he did.,) the rest of my family made a trip to New Jersey to visit a much loved relative. They wrote me a letter while they were on the trip, giving me details of the trip and telling me how much they wished I was there. The effect had (probably) the exact opposite they wanted. I was devastated and felt that I had betrayed my family by not going.

Homesickness is a strange beast. I'm not saying that letters from parents at summer camp are a bad idea. Just make sure the parent knows the right kinds of things to say in such letters and that the kid feels as comfortable as possible with being away from house and home for a week.

There are others on this forum who are far more expert at explaining how to do that than I am. I have no children of my own and only my own experience to go on.

DS

Nice catch, eisley. I forgot about the swim test stuff. If the boys attended summer camp and took a swim test, you can use the same status they earned then. Or you can work with your local YMCA or other pool facility to get them through it.

DS

Rootbeer, welcome back to Scouting. I'm sure you were missed. Excellent point about professional Scouters -- we aren't in it for the money. If you find a professional who isn't in it for the love of the Boy Scouts of America, consult your wrist watch. Their tenure won't be long.

DS

I'll second that!

DS

I saw this thread yesterday and figured you would have some responses by now. However, since you don't, I'll respond as well as I can.

You may still have to contact your local council service center. As you pointed out, it is the weekend, and I don't have all my resources at home. I have my current copy of ProSpeak and my binder on Scouting Accident and Sickness Insurance from Mutual of Ohmaha -- exciting weekend reading for a profesional, but I don't have all of the other stuff here.

The first thing you need to worry about is meeting the standards of Two Deep Leadership. It appears you have them met. I was able to look those up. Two deep leadership is defined as "Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities."

Yes, they should attend basic training prior to the trip. It isn't, however much I wish it was, required. It isn't required any more, but it used to be that you had to have a BSA Lifeguard on a trip such as you describe. The requirement didn't last long, but I think it was a good one. If you can have a BSA Lifeguard (or Red Cross or YMCA equivalent) attend, I think you'll sleep easier during the trek.

Check your Tour Permit. I believe at least one adult on the trip needs to have completed youth protection training. Even if it isn't required, I think it's more than a good idea. Whether they take it on-line or watch the video, it shouldn't take more than an hour.

I'm not sure where your troop is located, but if the travel exceeds 500 miles or 12 hours each way, you'll need to file a national tour permit. These are approved by your region, not your local council (I mean final approval,) and they enforce the deadlines. Don't be late with it.

If your troop is crossing to the Canadian side, you'll need a national tour permit regardless of the distance travelled. You'll also have to (in all probability) deal with customs folks who will want to see copies of birth certificates for the youth or parental permission slips. I'm not an expert on Canadian Customs, but "be prepared" is important.

I don't mean to make your troop's high adventure sound more difficult than it has to be. Just make sure your trek leaders follow the guidelines and that the troop file the proper paperwork.

And then enjoy seeing the photos and hearing the stories about the trip you couldn't attend.

Good luck.

DS

Isn't it amazing that will all this workplace diversity and comraderie that no one has admitted to being a lawyer and no one but me has admitted to being a current BSA professional?

I'd love to have a lawyer respond . . . it might draw some of the heat away from the professional service of the BSA.

Okay, I'm taking my tongue out of me cheek now. No cheap lawyer jokes, please.

DS

Sounds like a cool troop, Eamonn. I would echo that the most important was the time your leaders devoted to Scouting. Sure it was fun for them as well, but the benefits to youth far outweigh the fun and frustration experienced with adults.

I have a weird question for you. I know that Vegamite is more Australian than British, but is there any truth to my theory that the stuff is actually motor oil? It sure tastes like it!

Ds

I'm a big believer in the spirit of the law -- when it's one that isn't a safety issue or an important policy.

You guys are playing a crucial role in Scouting and should follow your district leadership. If they have no problem with your registrations, I certainly don't. As I said, I've never been in a district or council where all commissioners were only commmissioners and had no role in units.

My point was simply that, to help commissioners do their jobs by providing all information to them, commissioners need to have their primary registration be as a commissioner.

If you're unsure of your primary registration (note that Bob White's quoted material does not prohibit multiple registrations,) call your registrar at the council office and have them check. Switching your registration to primary as your commissioner role is a simple procedure for them. There's no additional appllication needed and no further fee.

Then maybe you'll get all the flyers and program helps in your Scouting magazine.

DS

Eamonn --

Technically, yes, your district is out of line. However, I've never been "in line" in the districts or councils I've served over the years. Just as a Field Director isn't supposed to have his/her own district (that's what a district director is,) an Assistant Districtt Commissioner isn't supposed to have his/her own units. They're both supervisory positions. An assistant district commissioner is supposed to advise about 5 unit commissioners or serve some other administrative funtion as decreed by the district commissioner.

Reality differs. I've most often seen ADC's used as super commissioners or people we wanted to keep around and gave them the title. It's not the textbook answer, but I'm a believer in doing what works to deliver a good program. Hang me if you will.

This brings me to an interesting bit of trivia -- Let's talk for a second about the position patch . . .

The only ones with the wreath of service (the Laurel leaves) are professional and commissioner patches. If you think about it, you'll notice that in some the thread is silver and in others the thread is gold.

For a unit commissioner and district executive, the threat is silver.

For an assistant district commssioner and Senior district executive, the thread is gold.

The thread doesn't turn silver until you get to council commissioner and/scout executive.

The difference is that silver means line service (direct service to units) and the gold means support service.

I realize that scout executives and council commissioners supervise other people, but if you've ever walked around with one at a council event you'll see that they get pasted enough to merit the silver . . .

Have a nice evening.

DS

Mark:

I don't think you implied that I fake being sick to get off work. If I did, I certainly wouldn't reply to stuff on these forums when I do.

As to taking the summers off, it was a troop tradition. Let me tell you why I took on the Scoutmaster role in the first place. It has nothing to do with taking the summers off from our usual meeting schedule (which I think all but one troop in the district did and does.) I think the reason most troops in that council take the summer off is that there are about 17 actually nice days in northeast Michigan and everyone is too busy rolling around naked in the grass going "yahoo!" to attend a troop meeting. An exageration, I assure you, but under the surface not too far off the mark.

At any rate, shortly after my wife and I joined a church, I got a call from a parent in the church's troop. She was looking for a list of neighboring troops so they could dissolve theirs. The church was Presbyterian. The nearest troop was across the street at the Pentecostal Temple. Philosophically they are very different.

Besides, I didn't want my first action as the District Director and new church member to be dropping the 30 year old charter. I became the Committee Chairman. The three remaining boys decided they wanted to keep the troop alive. The CR and I went on 18-20 recruitng calls and got turned down each time. I finally started running troop meetings. I recruited another committee chairman.

Three hard years later, I turned the troop over to an assistant scoutmaster who did a great job. There were 25 boys then.

BTW -- no one has asked on these boards, but yes, a professional can become a Scoutmaster if he has the permission of the Scout Executive. It's in the Registrar's manual.

PS -- I don't recommend it to my friends. There's a fair amount of pressure that comes with it.

DS

It's about dang time they said it. Notice that I didn't say I agree with it or not. Actually, I do. We need commissioners and we need them to be as impartial as possible.

I'll probably see that one in quotes somewhere.

Before anyone jumps on me, let me just say that the reason I am glad is systematic. I want commissioners to receive every mailing that goes out to unit leadership. How else can we expect them to be good spokesmen and knolwedgeable?

However, in the case of the unit commissioner who's old unit pays his/her registration fees as a committee member, they aren't receiving the mailing. Why? Because commissioner is their multiple registration, not their primary. Scoutnet eliminates their mailing label.

It's about that simple.

DS

Thanks, Bob. But actually I was serious. Our ranger needs the indian pumps. The ones out there are broken.

Thanks for all that you guys do for Scouting. I mean it.

DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Hmmm . . .

I don't think a water bucket is going to work on this one. I wish I had ordered those indian pumps like the ranger asked me to.

DS

I still talk to my Scoutmaster on a fairly regular basis. He's told me he really appreciates it, and I enjoy thanking him. He was a firm and strong leader who always displayed the ideals of Scouting. He was a bit anti-council, but my Dad eventually recruited him to the executive board of the council and he started to change his tune.

You see, my old Scoutmaster used to joke that I wasn't born -- I was issued from National. Without his influence, and time, I never would have earned (I said earned) Eagle at the age of 13. I never would have earned the Ronald Reagan (full tuition scholarship based on leadership,) wouldn't have entered the Scouting profession that's been my home for going on 15 years. Woudln't have met my wife at Scout camp . . . In short, my life would be radically different.

I'm not saying it was all Mr. B . . . obviously, I've done a fair amount of work myself. However, without him, I'm pretty sure none of these terrific things would have been availavble to me.

I'm pretty sure we both feel great when I make Mr. B's phone ring and remind him that he had a significant impact on my life. I call him a couple times a year. Don't stalk your old SM.

I almost hated to resurrect this old thread . . . but I'm asking you to make the phone calls necessary to find and warm someone who took the time to help you when you were a kid.

I'll call mine again if you'll call yours.

DS

Mark:

I wish everyone saw it your way and did what your troop does. Most do take the summer "off." I wish it were otherwise.

However, when I was a Scoutmaster, I do have to admit that I enjoyed my summers without regular troop meetings. Once I took the guys to camp for a week, I was more than content to wait for August to resume regular meetings.

DS