Troop Money

I have searched for information on this, I could not find it.

So if this is a repeat from some where, then Im sorry.

My question is (MONEY).

The troop dues every week

Should that be paid regardless if the scout makes it to the meeting or not.

I think yes, but wanted to know about other troops.

Should the troop books (Troop funds) be open to view by the scouts and parents?

I ask this, because some people have said some of the money is going to the cub scouts. And the fact that the troop worked hard last Nov and Dec on a fundraiser. And some have said the old SM took the money others have said some of it went to the Cub scouts.

They decided, to just move on. Said some money was not deposited and the roster of the boys that worked was missing or lost. So they would have to have the parents write down the nights the scouts worked because the boys will get money based off the hours worked. And the Money that they had est. of $1900. Less Insurance and previous money the troop had about $1300.00

My Problem is they are still talking about other fund raisers and now its the 9th of May - Working on the 5th month since the Dec fundraiser and no one has a clue how much will go to the boys.

Im told next week I will have my answer but I been told that before.

The Las Vegas Area Council is worthless, they have been told of this and other things and they do no follow up. One would think they would do something, and the troop is under them.

Welcome to the campfire. We'll give you lots of opinion, we can and will give you National policy (and usually back it up with hard quotes), and we'll try to help you... but our feedback is based on what you give us to work with.

First, many of us believe the Charter Agreement between BSA and the Chartered Partner (your Troop's host) is an ownership agreement. The Chartered Partner owns your unit outright, and that includes the property, the funds, and the books.

The Troop books should be accurate and complete, and available for inspection and audit by the Chartered Partner on demand. As far as parents actually auditing the books? That's a Committee Chair call. Certainly the CC should be able to have the Treasurer account for funds received from a Scout, and for what purpose they go to.

Some troops collect small increments weekly; others collect larger chunks twice a year. It's not atypical for unit operations to be $60-75 per boy per year. That's the money which goes into awards, chartering fees, and Boy's Life.

Camp fees run from $120-$400 depending on the type of camp per person.

You did not mention your position with the unit, are you a Committeeperson, an ASM, or not registered? If you're not a Scouter yet, get an adult leader app and sign up!

I hope this rambling helps, I know other Scouters will step up to the keyboard to talk with you. We may ask you questions; it's because we don't think we have enough info to give you our opinions.

YIS

Dues - if your Troop collects dues from the Scouts every week, then yes, if a Scout misses a meeting, he should be paying two weeks worth of dues at the next meeting. Weekly dues aren't meeting dues (pay only for the meetings you attend) they are weekly dues, payable every week, whether attending the meeting or not. (My troops never collected weekly dues - we relied on our fundraisers, and only collected annual registration fees).

The Books - YES - the books should be open for view by parents - the only reason not to open them to view by the parents is if you're trying to hide something. The Treasurer should be creating a monthly report for the Committee - and that report, as well as Committee Meeting minutes, should be provided to any parent who requests them. Even just having a policy that the books are open to view by parents will help prevent the "Our Scout's money went to the Cub Scouts" and "The old Scoutmaster took money" rumors and innuendo. The innuendo that "the old Scoutmaster took Scout's money" can be legally problematic too - if the old Scoutmaster were to get wind of the accusation, and could prove it false, the person spreading the accusation could face a lawsuit.

If your books haven't been well kept, it wouldn't hurt to look for an accountant willing to volunteer to audit the books for the past few years, just for peace of mind and a clean slate.

As for the boys getting money based on the hours they work - I really, really, really, (can I say enough really's) hate the whole idea of "Scout Accounts" or "Scout Shares". For one, its not easy to keep track of multiple "accounts". Two - what happens if you need to immediately replace a couple of tents, at a cost of $400 and you have $1,500 in the bank but $1,400 of it is dedicated to "Scout Accounts" - how do you raid the "Scout Accounts" accurately and how do you replenish them? Three - it's borderline legal, maybe - when Non-profits raise funds, the money can't be used to enrich individuals (employee salaries excepted) - it can be argued that Scout Accounts enrich individual scouts with fundraising money - if a Scout drops out, you can't write a check out to that Scout for the funds in his Scout Account (unless he has deposited his own money into that account - then how do you determine if he has spent his money or "Scout Account" money on outings when such funds are mixed.

Units should treat the money they raise as Unit money - it is to support the programs of the Unit - for purchasing equipment, insurance, badges, etc. There should be no reason to have individual "Scout Accounts". I know some units argue that Scouts can use their "Scout Account" moneys for outings, uniforms, etc. - Instead of "Scout Accounts", units could create a separate "campership" fund or "uniform" fund, funded by donations specifically given for that purpose. In my Scout Troop, our sponsoring organization donated a few hundred dollars every year for a summer camp "campership" program - it didn't come from the Troop's fundraising, it was specifically donated for a campership program - the money was used to help send boys who might not be able to afford it, or families with a number of boys who may have needed a little bit of help to send all of the boys, to summer camp. One year, there was enough donated so that each boy who went to camp had $50 of their camp fees paid for through the campership program.

Bottom line - consider dropping this whole idea of "scout accounts" - if you want to use Troop Funds to fully pay for a couple of weekends of camping so that no boy has to pay, that's perfectly acceptable.

CalicoPenn

The Committee Chair is the Treasurer, she also work with the Cub scouts 4 nights of the week

The fund raiser of last Nov and Dec was for summer camp only. Most of the money is gone.

The innuendo that "the old Scoutmaster took Scout's money" was made by Committee Chair

It was others that Scout's money went to the Cub Scouts

My question about Due is because I make sure my sons is paid regardless if he is there or not.

But just noticed that not the same for everyone.

I just dont see how it can take over 4 months to tell the boys how much money will be going to them for summer camp, no matter how they work out the split.

The only advice the Las Vegas Area Council, was going to give was some other troops to check out. Which is the way I going to have to go, but I told my son he will go with them on this summer camp.

I only question is what about the other boys, I know this troop can do better.

My position was just a father (Parent), now they have me as merit badge counselor, and in doing so. Put me down as committee member.

All of this is new to me, but being in the gaming business for the parts 20+ years

I do know this is not right about the money. One should never put him or her self in a position for the rumors and innuendo

I think pretty much everyone here will tell you that the books should be open. The Scouting literature says that a monthly report should be made at the committee meeting.

The problems that you're seeing are not uncommon among small volunteer groups. Sometimes even well-meaning people doing their best can make a real mess of things. The council has no magic power to clean up the books. The chartered organization would be the place to go, but they may not have a simple solution, either. You would talk to the treasurer, the committee chair, the chartered organization representative, and the head of the chartered organization. If you think they've really done something illegal, I'm sure there are more options.

We do use Scout accounts successfully, and we have our solutions to all of the issues CalicoPenn mentions. The BSA does recommend some method like this - "By depositing money weekly or monthly toward the camp fee, the majority of the fee will be paid by camp time." But it can get complicated when you start rationing out pro-rated fund-raising hours.

Oak Tree

Welcome, result1. Part of the difficulty with the organizational structure of boy scouts is that the council does not actually own the troop. While it might seem as though going to council to get a troop mishap cleared up would be logical, in reality there is little that the council can do about troop-level issues most of the time. This is why people are suggesting that you talk, instead, to whatever group or organization sponsors your troop (the charter organization partner). They DO own the troop. Often this is a local church or civic organization. If you aren't sure who the charter org. if for your son's troop, you should be able to find out by asking the committee chair. If s/he doesn't know either, ask the council and they can tell you. But, assuming that the CC is not the root of the accounting problems, it would probably be easier/better for him or her to contact the CO than for you to do it. I say this because the CC has (or should have) a "professional" relationship directly with the charter org. while you do not and may be viewed as simply a disgruntled parent. Unfortunate, but potentially true anyway. Also, FYI, not all charter orgs. are actively involved - some are simply names on a paper and nothing more. In that case, don't expect a whole lot of help from them.

As for dues: My son's troop collects dues once a year. There are pro's and con's to doing so weekly. (pro: it teaches the boy about regular, on-going commitments and responsibilities, plus it makes the boy more aware of the amount of money scouting costs and breaks the cost down into boy-sized chunks that he could help pay -which helps him learn that "a scout is thrifty!") (con: it is a pain in the neck from a book keeping perspective).

About fund raisers: I also don't see a reason why it should take four months to figure this out. Maybe it is time to invite the committee chair over for a cup of coffee and ask him/her to explain to you what is taking so long and more importantly, how it will be fixed?

About scout accounts: Some troops use them and others do not. Again, there are reasons for and against them. Whatever your troop's policy on this is, it should be clear and it should be followed. If it isn't clear, ask the committee chair to clarify it for you. If it is clear but isn't being followed, that's another topic of conversation to add to your list for when you invite the CC over for a cup of coffee.

From what you've posted, it does sound like the troop could use some assistance on the accounting side of things. Perhaps you know someone who is in that line of work and who would be happy to lend a hand?

Thank you all for the information

Yah, lots of good answers above. So I'll take the chance to be blunt.

The troop dues every week - Should that be paid regardless if the scout makes it to the meeting or not.

That is completely up to your troop, and perhaps up to the PLC boys. I've seen it done both ways. Often, as Lisa'bob describes, the weekly thing just becomes such a paperwork headache that skipping is easy.

Should the troop books (Troop funds) be open to view by the scouts and parents?

This is completely up to your troop as well, or more properly up to your charter partner. Some troops do. Most have had bad experiences with "problem" or "nosy" parents and choose to only provide summary reports (otherwise they'd never get people to volunteer as treasurer). Some that value anonymous scholarship support for kids might keep financial data away from parents and have it be strictly a CO/finance subcommittee thing. In all cases there should be some real oversight, but it can be structured very differently, eh?

My Problem is they are still talking about other fund raisers and now its the 9th of May - Working on the 5th month since the Dec fundraiser and no one has a clue how much will go to the boys.

None of it should go to the boys. Not directly. That wouldn't be strictly legal or ethical. Money raised must go to the troop, to support the scouting program for all boys. Da troop may choose how to allocate some money toward outings and such with "scout accounts", but even then it has to be a bit careful. So properly speaking, your son isn't entitled to a single dime of funraising money himself. It "goes to the boys" by going to the boys' program.

Overall, I think troops should be up-front before a fundraiser about how the money will be used. Just common sense and courtesy to donors and workers.

------

As a committee member, your role at this point should be to privately inquire of the CC/treasurer if there's anything amiss, and if you can do anything to help. If there has been some mis-appropriated funds, a CC/CO/treasurer probably can't tell you anything, though, since they may be pursuing an investigation or action for recovery.

Sometimes you just have to trust 'em when they say "they're working on it."

Yah, but if I may be so blunt, your post sounds like there's "other issues". Hard to give yeh advice about 'em without knowing them. So all we can be is general - trust your troop, take some time to figure things out before you assume wrongdoing (volunteers are volunteers, they can be slow), inquire gently and politely. Consider whether the program your boy is getting is worth your personal investment of time and treasure, and be content with that. And if yeh really feel good financial controls aren't in place, raise that respectfully with the committee and chartered partner, but not in the context of a specific fundraiser.

Beavah

Money is one of those necessary evils a troop must deal with. It can also be a learning opportunity for boys and since we must deal with money anyway we may as well make the most of the task. Some thoughts (all supported by the way in the BSA publications):

Dues the troop has ongoing expenses for awards, recharter, insurance, Boys Life etc. that dont relate to whether a boy attends a particular meeting. Weekly dues help boys develop a sense of fiscal responsibility. Collecting and recording dues is part of the troop scribe duties.

Boy accounts this isnt rocket science but the treasurer must be on top of it. It solves the issue of some boys opting to skip participating in money-earning events and being carried along by the others. (Maybe thats not so bad, seeing as thats what we choose to do as a society.)

Open books - It isnt really practical to invite troop adults and parents to look over the books any time they get the notion. Rather, the treasurer should prepare a financial report for each monthly committee meeting to include: income, (where did the money come from), expenses, (what was it used for), a beginning bank balance and an ending bank balance. The bank account should be reconciled with the checkbook monthly. Its a good idea to have an annual informal audit of sorts, where 2 members (or more) review all the troop financial records with the treasurer.

The treasurer is a member of troop committee, as it the committee chair. But they should not be the same person. The function of the CC is to see that all the committee functions are being handled; not to do the work.

It is not the function of the council office to become involved in unit finances. It would be well for the troop adults to take the New Leader Essentials training, Troop Committee Challenge training, and to get and read the Troop Committee Guidebook.

I would like to second the points brought up by Fscouter.

While transparency is important with respect to troop finances, completely open books can be a nuisance as described by Beavah. Our treasures produces a monthly cash flow statement similar to that described by FScouter. Beginning balance, revenue/income, expenses, Ending Balance. The committee generally knows where the $$ is going, but occaisionally expenses include camperships or direct expenses for scouts whose families are having financial problems. I'm not sure some of the families involved would be comfortable having the rest of the unit know how much $$ they recieved and why. They submit campership applications on the basis they are kept confidential.

Secondly, the Treasurer should be responsible for keeping track of unit funds and in my mind should not have a close tie to unit program operations. Combining the position of CC and Treasurer or SM and Treasurer is a recipe for bad news. In the unit I serve, the Treasurer is a mom who is not involved in the outdoor program. If we need $$ we ask her to cut a check for a specific amount made out to where the $$ is intended, or submit a receipt documenting why the $$ was spent and approved by the committee. No one person should be allowed access to or be authorized to directly spend unit funds. Our SM also has access to the account and records, but he cannot independently spend unit funds.

Both the SM and Treasurer are highly trustworthy. The Treasurer is an officer at a Bank and the SM has been with the troop for 15 years. Yet both would insist upon some level of financial oversight to avoid the kind of issues result1 has described. This is just good financial stewardship.

SA

I want to thank you all, but let me clarify some things.

Your son isn't entitled to a single dime of fundraising money himself

That I clearly understand. Fundraising is a group (Team work) project. Dont expect it to be like a job where he would get paid.

Fact: it was a fundraiser for summer camp so the parents would not have to pay the entire fees. And its also good for the boys its learning.

Last year the SM divided the funds equally between all boys going to summer camp. This year (After the fundraiser he is gone and the CC has said what he did last year was wrong, it will be based on the hours the boys worked.

This yeas the cost of summer camp is $280.00, everyone is waiting to see how much of the fundraiser will be applied to the scouts (Towards summer camp).

But - (Copy of what I sent to Area Council a long time ago)

The troop had a fundraiser during November & December (Money was to go to the scouts for summer camp).

The roster of the boys that attended and which nights they worked, sound like the list was lost or cannot be found.

The money that was turned in, and or deposited, sounds like a lot of money is missing. And sure many rumors are floating around. But they decided to move forward and plan other fundraisers.

At one point it was said they had about $1800 less $500 for re-charter and est. $100 for insurance leaving a balance of est. $1200.00 for the boys. The question was and still is today how is that money will be divided between the boys that worked out in the cold nights - it was for Summer Camp.

Would of thought that information would have been told to everyone a long time ago. They are accepting payments for the summer camp - and parents are paying but have no ideal what happened to the money from the fundraiser.

Will the boys get anything?

One asst. Scoutmaster said last night, there is no money. And if that is the case what happened to the est. $1200.00

2) New fundraiser

There was some talk of new fundraisers, Jan 29 - (No follow-through) a month later.

(Update 9 May and still no new fundraisers)

3) Bad information

Asst Scout master passed out information on Summer Camp stating $265.00 per scout - (No word of the money from the fundraisers.)

A week later - passes out a letter asking for donations, stating that the summer camp is $280.00

Granted it only $15.00 more and really no big deal. But that is not how I saw it. The bad information made it appear the summer camp is $265.00 but if we are asking for donation its $280.

My thought is this is NOT what I want my son to learn.

Why not just tell the truth.

(Which he was, but very poor communication -Like none - no communication) made it appear to be dishonest

Follow up on the Internet Summer camp is $280.00

What Im saying is if they would tell me what if any thing will be applied to my sons summer camp. I have no problem pay the difference. I just like some time to work it onto my budget.

But I now understand they are asking The Summer camp for some extra time to submit the money for summer camp.

Back to Troop Money

I do not know all the different finance the troop has to deal with.

Last Nov Paid 26.90 boys life I may be wrong but thought some of that went to recharter

Understand about awards, insurance.

What other expenses, the boys clean up around the school so there is no cost there for the meetings.

Collecting weekly dues

Personally I dont know where the money is going. And it may not be any of my business.

But I do think this is a non-profit and the money should go to boys is some way. With what happened to the last (Only found raiser) I do have to ask myself who is making profit.

And to answer the obvious

There are other problems

Just seam that nothing is planed, and or very poor communication between everyone and very slow follow-through.

And still in question when does the boys learn and work on advancement.

What wrong when - Scoutmaster comes in, don't even know what the asst scoutmaster is teaching or inspecting.

Who should know what is going on, whom does a parent or (anyone)go to for information?

We categorize money into two buckets - dues and fees. Dues are "due", and are due no matter whether they attend or not. Ours are monthly, but you can pay in any size chunk you want. Fees are activity based, and you only pay if you attend. Activities are supposed to be "net zero" activities, meaning the fees cover the entire cost of the activity.

Books should be open, but I'm with the group saying it shouldn't mean it's open season for every disgruntled parent to challenge every dime. A simple cash flow report with balances in various buckets should suffice. Our balances report typically has a balance for the general fund, scout individual accounts (as a total), and special funds for high adventure activities.

Individual accounts are kept for each scout, and can be used to pay for dues or fees. But the money never goes to the scout, that would be unethical (and illegal), in my mind.

Good luck.

The people I'd go to first for information are the committee chair/treasurer and whoever the new scoutmaster is. That goes for both the program stuff (what's happening in troop meetings, who is running/doing what, etc.) and the financial aspect.

Supposing that you are polite and reasonable in your requests, the committee chair/treasurer should have no trouble explaining where your money goes when you pay dues. While they may not be able to tell you how every cent is allocated, they should be able to give you a general run-down. For example, in March the troop paid about xx for tent repairs and new lanterns; the awards budget for a court of honor is about xx; so far we've paid about xx to Camp Happy for X # of boys to attend the week of xxx, etc..

If they have no idea where the money is going, or won't tell you, then something is amiss. It might be something as simple as poor book keeping, in which case offering to help clear things up (if you have the skill or know someone who does and is willing) might be the best thing you can do.

If your CC/treasurer cannot or will not discuss matters with you, I suppose you have the right to go to the charter organization and lay it all on the table. If they're actively involved with the troop, they'll probably already have a good working relationship with the CC and they'll be able to ask the questions and get the answers necessary. If they are generally uninvolved except signing paperwork now and again, then they may have no clue what's going on or how things ought to work. There, one of your options is to offer to help put the CO in contact with your district executive (a professional BSA staffer - your council office can tell you who that is). The District Exec. generally works with COs so he or she should be able to help the CO figure out what their responsibilities are, assuming the CO actually cares. Which they should, because what you're describing sounds like a total mess and could reflect poorly on the CO's reputation in the community as well.

I don't know if I understood the summer camp fee issue. What I think you are saying is: camp costs $265 but the troop is requesting donations (from whom?) for $280. Parents don't really know whether they're responsible for the whole $265 or not, depending on what happened with the fundraising $, so they don't know what to pay. The troop is now having a hard time paying the camp for the boys (?) and has requested an extension from the camp (while they sort this mess out?). If that's the gist of things then yes, I think you're within reason to ask the CC/treasurer for clarification. Parents need to know what they're responsible for, when to pay, and that their payments are in fact going to summer camp and not buying someone a yacht or something.

If all that you are saying is correct and something like $1200 has truly vanished, then the CC needs to start serious conversation with the CO and the DE. They may ultimately decide to contact the local police too, but I think that's the CO's job since they - not you, not the CC, not the council or district - own the troop and its assets.

And perhaps looking for another troop to join isn't such a bad idea, if things don't get resolved here.

I don't know if I understood the summer camp fee issue. What I think you are saying is: camp costs $265 but the troop is requesting donations (from whom?)

What I was trying to say when the summer camp first came up they quoted the price from last year. Very poor communication -Like none for the ASM, came out with letters to pass out requesting donations $280 per scout.

If he would of told everyone the correct price that would have been a dead issue

Then it jumped up to $285. But I wanted to see the paper that said $285

They could not find it and agreed that the price is still $280.

I dont care what the price is just tell me what is going on.

Parents don't really know whether they're responsible for the whole $265 or not, depending on what happened with the fundraising $,

They said the fundraising is for summer camp. The cost $280 less what they decide the boys will get from the fundraising.

I dont see why it will take so long, a few phone calls to the parents requesting the day and hours the scout was working on the fundraising use the excel spreadsheet and be done with it and a week or two.

Then tell the parents what is left to pay for summer camp.

The requested an extension from the camp, as they want to have a yard sale to get more money.

They flat out refuse to do a swap meet even thou we could get the space for free.

(Is this a boy run troop)?

I have already paid $200 so the $80 is no problem. But other parents may have a problem

Communication is the Key.

Boy Run troop?

Last weekend was Scout expo, a few Parents/committee member, say a few of the boys wanted some rest time. (I did not see any one ask the scouts) it was decided for this Scout expo they would have a rest booth. They missed a great chance for a fundraiser.

If all that you are saying is correct and something like $1200 has truly vanished, then the CC

Total amount that vanished is unknown, they said last year they made over $3000.00

This year its about $1200 they have to work with. The CC told everyone they just want to move on (Forget about it).

I try to talk give suggestion, in a nice way.

I dont want to come across like Im trying to take over they have had plenty of that from others.

My self I just like to be told what is going on, what I need to pay (in advance).

Yah, result1. Yeh sound like yeh might be a relatively new parent in this troop?

A lot of what you're talkin' about is difficulties with communication, and I reckon all of da people here can sympathize with communication failures in troops.

Sometimes cub packs which are well run can be great at adult communication. Then a family moves into a troop, where there's youth leadership and a new way of doing things, and as a result the communication feels "broken." Some of that is that it takes time to get used to a very different program, where lots of communication happens directly boy-to-boy. Some is gettin' familiar with new procedures for fundraisin', and a different way of doin' advancement, and ways of delegating tasks so the Scoutmaster may not always know exactly what the ASM for new scouts or the SPL or the Patrol Leader for the Beavah Patrol is doin'. All that can feel pretty chaotic as a parent. Especially if (as it seems) you had a SM recently retire or move on, and other people are tryin' to "fill in."

Summer camp fees are a good example. Most camps have two different fees, for "early" and "regular" registrants. So it's perfectly possible for a well-meaning person to read the "early" registrant figure only to realize later that they can't get things in in time, so everyone will have to pay the "regular" fee. Or perhaps they just had last year's leader's guide for the camp and didn't think to check. Many troops also tack on a small surcharge to pay for gasoline for drivers (perhaps that's the "donation" part) or incidentals for the boys, and they occasionally forget to put that in when they send out the first note.

This stuff is normal. It happens all the time, because volunteers are busy people, and not always experienced, and sometimes communication takes a back seat to "the crisis of the day." Scout troops often do feel confusin' to new parents, even in troops that do a decent job communicatin'.

So my advice is to relax a bit, be forgiving of your fellow volunteers' mistakes, and just give 'em a chance to do the best they can do. Sit back, take time to figure things out. Let your son have the job of communicatin' to you about what he needs or what's up with the troop. As long as he's doin' OK, it's OK, eh? Then in a bit, find one (and only one!) job you can be helpful with, to do your part. Maybe helpin' with communication to new parents, eh? Maybe volunteerin' to be treasurer in a year or so.

It really will seem better as you get (more) used to it. And your fellow parents will appreciate and respect your quiet support even when they stumble.

Beavah