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  • OA and Venturing

    I have been debating in the "OA and Venturing" topic for a few days now in favor of Venturers having elections. I would like to know how the Venturers feel about it. If you aren't a Venturer please DO NOT answer in this poll. This poll will be open until 08/31/2013 00:00.
    5
    Yes, I want Venturers to have Order of the Arrow elections.
    80.00%
    4
    I don't care whether or not Venturers have OA elections.
    0.00%
    0
    What's the OA?
    20.00%
    1

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by EagleScout441; 08-16-2013, 12:16 PM.

  • #2
    Nice poll. Wonder how many venturers will think they are venture scouts.

    Comment


    • #3
      Lets just hope for now that some Venturers will actually vote.

      Comment


      • #4
        Seeing as this is a Scouter forum, I don't think we are your target audience. What is a Venture Scout?

        Comment


        • dhendron
          dhendron commented
          Editing a comment
          Actually, there is no such thing as a "Venture Scout" or a "Venture Crew" and never has been. A Venturing Crew member is a youth (male or female, depending on the demographics for that particular Venturing Crew) that is registered with a BSA Venturing Crew.

          The word "Venture" is no longer officially used by BSA. Its last use was associated with the "Venture Patrol", which I understand (correct me if I am wrong) is no longer officially supported by BSA although they still sell the patch and many units still have them. This was intended to be a high adventure patrol of older boys in a Boy Scout Troop.

        • EagleScout441
          EagleScout441 commented
          Editing a comment
          Boy Scout, Sea Scout, Varsity Scout, and, Venturer? Why do all of them have "Scout" in their title except Venturing? Do Venturers not want to be considered as part of the Scouting organization? Or is the correct term "Venturing Scout"?
          "The word "Venture" is no longer officially used by BSA."
          Were they at one point called Venture Scouts/Venture Crews?
          Venture Patrols are dying, there are very few in existence now(sadly) that I know of, though I do believe that they are still part of the BSA.

        • qwazse
          qwazse commented
          Editing a comment
          Easy E441, dhendron paid good money for that VLST course. He has to get his money's worth!

          Venturers (who were never were officially "venture scouts," and were once-upon-a-time Explorers more interested in outdoor stuff than career exploration) want to be respected for who they are. What that means varies widely. Some (like evidently the ones you met) want to be in OA, others want to be trusted to help serve other BSA units, others don't want boy scouts demeaning the awards they earn, others want to be treated as a different program and don't want anything "scout" associated with them.

          We adults really do have a tough time figuring it out.

          Venture patrols, that was easy. I think it was E92 who explained that they were what in our day was called "Leadership Corps". As soon as he did, I got it. We were the older boys in a troop who hopped in a car, found a site, did a service project, camped, cooked some insanely good food, caved, and came back and reported to the SM with a whole list of activities and program for the troop. Sometimes the SM tagged along. It's just an internal name that a troop can use to distinguish those boys. Who knows how many there are, really? But since patrols aren't supposed to overnight without an adult anymore, they are just rogue scouts. I sure do hope there are lots of them!
          Last edited by qwazse; 08-16-2013, 02:22 PM.

      • #5
        If OA is a Boy Scout program, why would Venturing even be involved? Same for the leadership of the Cub Scout program. Do they wear the lodge flap on their DL uniform?

        Comment


        • BadenP
          BadenP commented
          Editing a comment
          I agree the OA is and should remain a Boy Scout program only. None of our crew is even remotely interested in getting involved with the OA.

        • ChaiAdventure
          ChaiAdventure commented
          Editing a comment
          if OA is a Boy Scout program, then why are adults allowed in??? adults are not Boy Scouts...they are Scouters...

        • jblake47
          jblake47 commented
          Editing a comment
          Good point. Probably because the boys can not be trusted to do it themselves.

          Stosh

      • #6
        Ok a little history, and EMB, please correct me where I screw up as you are the expert.

        1972, Leadership Corps was created for older scouts in a troop. It was a leaderhsip patrol that would dome some things on their own. FYI My troop used them and I liked the concept.

        1989, Leadership Corps are replaced with the Venture Crew within a troop. They had an ASM Venture, and a Crew Leader POR patches. Also were able to wear the 'Varsity/Venture Letter" on a jacket or MB sash and would do outdoor oriented activities to earn Venture Pins to wear on the sash like Varsity Scouts. Around 1993 or thereabouts, Varsity Scouts could earn the Venture Pins and Venture Crew members, do not know if Venture Scout was an official term or not but heard it back then, could earn the Varsity pins.

        1998 Venturing splits from Exploring. To try and ease the confusion some, which many told the PTB the confusion will happen b/c there are too many similarities, a troop's venture crew became a venture patrol and Venturing called their units Crews. Sea Scout ships could still divide their ships into crews still.

        Venture p-atrols still exist.

        Comment


        • #7
          Crud, I voted THEN read the entire OP. Doubt that you would get many venturers here to vote anyways.

          Comment


          • #8
            I would have liked it if you had made your poll a yes or no vote. Yes to include Venturing, no to keep it just Boy Scouts. I voted the option of "I don't care", but I do care. Boy Scouts and Venturing are both BSA programs, and they share many of the same goals.......but they are very different programs. That isn't to say that there are not youth in Venturing who are worthy of being recognized for their selfless service, they just aren't eligible because they aren't Boy Scouts. Venturing doesn't even have to be outdoor oriented. It always dumbfounds me that we have two divergent programs that people keep wanting to bring back together. Venturing is the un-scout program.....and I don't mean that as an offense. Let me explain. There are folks and boys out there that complained about uniforms, ranks, POR's, all that stuffy structure and the exclusion of girls. So what does BSA do? THey develop a program that is coed, uniform optional, advancement optional and a loose structure that can encompass many a program emphasis. And what happens? They want to be Boy Scouts and go to Jamborees, high adventure bases, summer camp, OA, etc. I'm not against the Venturing program, I'm really not. But why don't we just cut to the chase, sundown Venturing and all the overhead and expense of a struggling program and make Boy Scouts coed? Do that and girls can become Eagles, be elected to OA, go to Jamborees, etc. Problem solved.

            Comment


            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              The purpose of this poll is to find out whether or not Venturers want to be in the OA. Why would a Venturer say that they didn't want Venturing to have OA elections? If they didn't want to be in the OA they simply wouldn't run in the OA election, one or two Venturers saying no to nomination shouldn't stop other Venturers from being elected, hence, they don't care whether or not there are OA elections for Venturing because they don't want to be in it. I know a Boy Scout who declined nomination into the OA, he simply didn't want to be in the OA. Maybe you didn't read my whole post: "If you aren't a Venturer please DO NOT answer in this poll."

            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              While editing my post I accidentally deleted your vote some how. You'll have to vote again.

          • #9
            I don't think they should let anime, theater, etc., crews into the OA. The majority of crews in my council are outdoor crews who actually wear the uniform and a few of them frequently do joint trips with troops or ships in the area, so from my perspective, Venturing is basically upgraded Boy Scouts.
            National says that the program is struggling, but they are the reason that it is struggling. The only people that know what Venturing is are already in scouts and have already found a Boy Scout/Girl Scout troop that they like and don't want to make a transition to Venturing when they are acting as leaders in their troop. And comparing percentages for Boy Scout ranks and Venturing awards isn't really fair, they should be comparing the percentages of Venturing awards with the Boy Scout Hornaday and National Outdoor awards.And as far as optional uniforms goes, I still think that it's pathetic. Someone joins a Venturing Crew and they're not willing to pay $50 for a uniform? Really?
            "But why don't we just cut to the chase, sundown Venturing and all the overhead and expense of a struggling program and make Boy Scouts coed? Do that and girls can become Eagles, be elected to OA, go to Jamborees, etc. Problem solved."
            Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. Here is what I think about it: The co-ed programs shouldn't be under the title of the BSA, just like the Girl Scouts have their own program, co-ed groups should do the same. The other option is to have SUSA, Scouts of the United States of America, and have three divisions: Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and Scouts(co-ed). The OA could then either be an honor society for all scouts, or stay a Boy Scout program. But if it stays a Boy Scout/Varsity Scout only program, why doesn't each division of Scouting get it's own honor society? The Girl Scouts don't have one and the only Venturers that are part of the OA are former Boy Scouts.

            Comment


            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              Isn't being in the VOA more like a leadership position? Like the first step to area, regional, or national positions.
              And the Leadership Awards are just awards, not an honor society(or as you call them "a fairly elite club") like the OA or the NESA.
              BTW, I'm talking about the Venturing Class A uniform, the shirt by itself without the patches is $40.
              Last edited by EagleScout441; 01-30-2014, 09:38 PM.

            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              Well, I think this is where we do you youth a disservice. We've dissected "honor" from leadership. VOA should not be a mere leadership position. Every advisor should encourage the best members in their crew (even if they aren't officers) to contribute time to the VOA. They should really be an integral part of their council -- advising on everything from infrastructure to service projects, fundraisers and camporees .... Simply put, the best venturers, to be of better use to their crew, need to devote some time to hanging out with the best venturers of other crews and exchanging notes. The ideal VOA president would touch base with the Lodge chief from time to time. IMHO those are the two youth should be the most highly regarded in every council.

            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              Regarding uniforms, I understand that you are talking about the National field uniform. But, that $40 translates into two mornings with a climbing guide on some very challenging rocks just north of town. For a youth who probably already has a (boy/girl) scout uniform, fireman/EMT gear, their military uni (which is to take precedence at any formal scouting function anyway), and possibly a wife -- and baby on the way: why would I want him put his money in a shirt that he won't be wearing?

          • #10
            Originally posted by EagleScout441 View Post
            Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. Here is what I think about it: The co-ed programs shouldn't be under the title of the BSA, just like the Girl Scouts have their own program, co-ed groups should do the same. The other option is to have SUSA, Scouts of the United States of America, and have three divisions: Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and Scouts(co-ed). The OA could then either be an honor society for all scouts, or stay a Boy Scout program. But if it stays a Boy Scout/Varsity Scout only program, why doesn't each division of Scouting get it's own honor society? The Girl Scouts don't have one and the only Venturers that are part of the OA are former Boy Scouts.



            BSA and GSUSA are two different programs independent of each other. You can't have SUSA organization with boy scouts, girl scouts and coed scouts. Well, you can....but BSA and GSUSA won't allow you to use their names of "boy scouts" and "girl scouts". You'd have to call them something else. And since they aren't part of BSA, OA would not be available to them. As far as why each division doesn't have their own honor society, I'd suggest you do some research on the OA. It was started by a camp director at a single Boy Scout summer camp. The idea spread to other camps. It was run outside the BSA. BSA did not adopt the OA as part of the program until something like the 40's if I recall correctly. OA started in 1915. A less known Bot Scout honor society called Mic-O-Say still exists in some councils, but is not an official part of BSA like OA is. If Venturing wants to start an honor society, a model already exists dating back to 1915. Someone needs to start one, promote it to crews in other councils and try and make it grow. If it is popular enough and grows enough, BSA might adopt it like they did OA. I'll stand on my original post, Boy Scouts and Venturing are two different programs. If Venturing gloms onto Boy Scouts, it does itself a disservice and blurs what it could become. They need to set themselves apart, not emulate and adopt Boy Scout programs. Doing that will make them irrelevant.




            Comment


            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              GSUSA is the female scouting organization of the USA, it is basically the same as the Boy Scouts other than the fact that it is all female. I have also heard of GSUSA troops going on trips/outing with BSA troops.

            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              And as far as SUSA goes, I'm talking about joining the BSA and the GSUSA organizations together.
              "They need to set themselves apart, not emulate and adopt Boy Scout programs. Doing that will make them irrelevant."
              Well, since I know one of the Area Presidents, maybe I should attempt to create an honor society for Venturing.

            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              Nobody ever taught you about sacred cows, did they?

              Yes, some troops get together and do these kinds of things. Love it when they do, but the leaders get lots of flack if they even suggest replicating it on a grander level.

              GS love their troops (by-and-large age based patrols). BS love bringing every boy under one roof. They seem very far away from a unified organization.

          • #11
            Actually the Corps of Discovery is an unofficial Venturing Honor Society that is starting to takeoff. http://www.venturingcorps.com/

            Sea Scouts in SR7 have created the Order of the Golden Dragons. http://sasserrc.tripod.com/cardinalwardroom/id37.htm

            Comment


            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              I forgot about CoD! Thanks for the reminder.
              As always with things in the beginning, it is a little ambiguous about how this distinguishes a youth who is part of CoD from one who puts her heart and soul into her VOA and never bothers with CoD.

            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              Well, what do ya know! I take it all back, Venturers don't need the OA when they have this. Thanks E92 for posting this.

          • #12
            Above I posted this:
            "They need to set themselves apart, not emulate and adopt Boy Scout programs. Doing that will make them irrelevant."
            Well, since I know one of the Area Presidents, maybe I should attempt to create an honor society for Venturing."

            Since I have been informed by E92 about the Corps of Discovery I reject this comment and quote and replace it with this: Since I know one of the Venturing Area Presidents I will attempt to form a CoD group within the Middle Tennessee Council. Also, since I can find no trace of a VOA within the MTC I will attempt to form one of those as well.

            Comment


            • SR540Beaver
              SR540Beaver commented
              Editing a comment
              Now you're talking!
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