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  • #16
    Originally posted by Eagledad View Post
    With all due respect Jpstodwftexas, when I read statements that are incorrect wrong like no child molesters caught in the BSA or 99% of child molesters are married heterosexuals with kids, how can we trust any insight you give us in the future? That doesn't mean the BSA is more of a risk with gay molesters than other youth centered organizations, but it certainly isn't less either. Using the word homophobic only shows your bias on the subject and a lack of confidence of supporting your opinion in an intellectual discussion. Youth protection isn't the real issue of gay adult leaders anyway, it's gay adult role models. Role models have a real influence on youth. How does the BSA convince parents that a gay influence isn't dangerous to their sons. That is the elephant in the room. Barry

    Hummm I wonder where you get I am Incorrect in the Information about the Child Molesters I have dealt with in the last 10+ years?
    Have you talked to any of them?
    Have you reviewed their Court Records?
    Their Visitation Lists?

    I never said there are not Child Molesters Caught or Suspected to Be in BSA, Just I have Never Encountered one.
    I see their Visitation List, I see their Convictions, I know their Families, I see their Court Records.

    I have had to take more in depth Training on Pedophiles I dare say than you have. I don't make up the stats, call some experts and see what they say about the stats or Course Materials...Here are some of the Qouted Sources Material I have been Lectured On..every year for the last 10 years..

    "Pedophilia and Homosexually are two different things. The truth is most child molesters and those who are into Child pornography are Heterosexual men not gay men. Most of these Heterosexual men are completely straight when it comes to their adult sexual interest, but can be either be Bi Gay or straight when it comes to their sexual interest in children, most are Bisexual when it comes to their sexual interest for children. Of course there are Gay men who also have a sexual interest in children but this has to do with being a Pedophile not being Gay if being gay was the reason why little boys are sexually molested then all little girls who are sexually molested would be so because most men are Heterosexual and not Gay."

    "In 1992, alarmed over claims made during a campaign for an anti-gay state constitutional amendment in Colorado, two physicians reviewed every case of suspected child molestation evaluated at Children's Hospital in Denver over a one-year period. Of the 269 cases determined to involve molestation by an adult, only two of the perpetrators could be identified as gay or lesbian. The researchers concluded that the risk of child sexual abuse by an identifiably gay or lesbian person was between zero and 3.1%, and that the risk of such abuse by the heterosexual partner of a relative was over 100 times greater."

    "Homosexuals only make up 7% of pedophilia cases. Also, most men who molest boys are interested in the feminine qualities of the boys and are straight. Most of us think that a child molester is a rather slimy individual( a stranger in town, sitting in his car near a schoolyard, luring children with candy. Our findings reveal that, on the contrary, the child molester is not a stranger, but is someone we know well. He often is a man we trust, a man our children trust. . . . As a rule, he is married and has children of his own whom he usually does not molest. He is almost always a well‑respected, even loved, member of his community. He is often an active Christian who is involved in his church."

    Please Tell The State Of Texas that they are spreading False Information and to Stop Making Us Sit through Course every year just So They can say they Train us..

    Can you provide sources to the Contrary?

    I was not the One Who Introduced Homosexuality into the discussion in the First Place


    • moosetracker
      moosetracker commented
      Editing a comment
      jpstodwftexas - should have known by your moniker you were from Texas but the whole thing just is a jumble of letters most times.. Anyway after reading that you floored me that his came out of the State of Texas.. Now, Texas being mainly Republican, that says a lot, because if they could tie pedophiles with homosexuals they would have ! Wow

      Eagledad.. JP got you good with that one.. Besides the fact as he stated, he was talking personal experience, and you totally rejected his personal experience, like you know better what JP's personal experience is more then he himself does.

      That was good!

    • Eagledad
      Eagledad commented
      Editing a comment
      Interesting stuff Moose, as you know, personal experience is relative if it's only local. We've had a SM pedophile case not too long ago in our area. I know for a fact we are not alone by any means. As for only 7% gay pedophiles! what percentage of the population is gay? Sheesh, I'm a better representative for the gays than those who are controlled by their emotions. Do you really think the gay community is satisfied by the lame argument of not talking about sexuality. You are basically suggesting Don't Ask Don't Tell. The whole point of this situation for the gays is being accepted for their sexuality. It doesn't matter whether we talk about it or not, gays want their sexuality accepted as "normal". Don't belittle them by dodging and weaving around it. It's assumed that a married male SM with a wife is normal, why can't a married male SM with a husband be normal? Don't you see? As I said before, experts tell us role models can have a lot of influence with our sons. Don't discount that reality. It's the moral problem that dictates this discussion. And please don't let your emotions against the conservative side blindly treat the the gay community unknowingly with disrespect. I may not agree with their behavior, but i truly believe they have goodness in their hearts. Except the activist. Barry

    • moosetracker
      moosetracker commented
      Editing a comment
      No, I am suggesting that they can act as normal couples do. I do not know the intimate details of what goes on in my heterosexual friends bedrooms (or on their kitchen table).. I do not need to know that from homosexual friends either. I have no problem with them introducing me to the same sex significant other, talking about their significant other in the same way I talk about my husband.. Like my partner & I are going to the museum this weekend. Or my partner & I went to this fabulous restaurant last week. I also have no problem with hand holding or a peck on the check..

      If they get too "snuggly" and "kissy-faced" and you want to say "Get a room".. Then it is too much, same as with a heterosexual.. For both of them especially when at a BSA event.

      Where ever you got the idea that I prefer a "don't ask don't tell I don't know".. Especially from this comment. Maybe the one where I pointed out that YOU should have a problem with the "Don't ask, Don't tell" we have now, because it condones people putting on a false persona.. Which is the biggest trait of a pedophile..

      For me a married SM with a same-sex spouse, would not raise my antanne.. But, it would yours, and it would many people in the pack/troop.. The day when everyone accepts them the same way as a heterosexual couple is far, far away from today.. When it happens THEN and only THEN will a pedophile use this as their false persona.. Today is not that day.

  • #17
    I don't know about any of My Former Scout Masters Sexual Preferences because we Never discussed it, Nor Did any on them Every Discuss sex with me...Sex is not part of the Scouting Curriculum and it should never be.
    I refuse to discuss sex with any youth Scouter and I refuse to have Sexually Oriented Discussions on Scout Outings with Adults.
    Sex has no place in Scouting.
    Youth Protection is Fine as it is. The Basic Principal is Sound...
    Two Deep Leadership...NO ONE ON ONE CONTACT...Beware of Possible Situations and Report

    As for Role Models>..They Wore Scout Uniforms Clean and Properly, They Demonstrated Skills..They were Polite, They Demonstrated the 12 Principal Attributes of Scout...but never Sexual Orientation


    • moosetracker
      moosetracker commented
      Editing a comment
      Hmmmm... I knew my sons SM and CM sexual preferences, and I am sure my son did too (If he stopped to think about it.) They were all married with their sons in the troop/Pack.

      Now anything further then that "No".. Like were they swingers? Did they cheat on their spouses? Bi-sexual? Any thing kinky? "No" other then married with kids, I knew nothing more.. Eventually I had met the wives.. In CS the wives were just as involved. In BS the wives only showed up for courts of Honors or other big events where all family members were encouraged to attend.
      Last edited by moosetracker; 12-30-2013, 08:38 PM.

    • jpstodwftexas
      jpstodwftexas commented
      Editing a comment
      Rock Hudson was Married
      Maybe More of Those Married Gays will come out of the Closet as Society Excepts Gays More. Many Gays still Hide their Lifestyle because they are still hidden.
      Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 12-30-2013, 09:32 PM.

    • moosetracker
      moosetracker commented
      Editing a comment
      More likely they will not marry to try to "hide" or deny who they are.. Or if already marry cause some heartbreak by accepting who they are and leaving wife & children. It is sad for both them, but more so I feel for their spouses who they lied to, or maybe more accurately it would be they lied to themselves with them.

      That is sort of what I meant by aside from knowing them married with kids, I do not know the intimate details For all I know they get out the whips, chains and leather.. But unless it is a very open marriage, I doubt few spouses know their significant other are closeted homosexuals.. Could be wrong though.

      Even with accepting homosexuals into BSA, the intimate details will still be "unknown".. We will just meet the "significant other" who will tell us, hetero or homo.. I hope the day will come when the recognition is no more mind boggling then figuring out a person is single or married. Probably not in my lifetime, but perhaps in my son's lifetime.

  • #18
    I've been reading the posts. I think it is OK to leave it here until it clearly belongs in I&P....IMHO.


    • Sentinel947
      Sentinel947 commented
      Editing a comment
      I think it does, but since a couple people object, I'll leave it here.

      There's still some on point discussion.

    • Scouter99
      Scouter99 commented
      Editing a comment
      The problem with a comments feature alongside a quote feature is it allows for a lot of off-topic banter. Whereas a person might not quote and add an off-topic reply, the comment invites side conversations.

  • #19
    Again I still say the YP hits the Key Factors...By Eliminating One on One you Eliminate the Opportunity to Groom and Take away the Chance of Secrecy. You Can Not Spot a Pedophile by Sight Alone..They come in every race, every sex, every physical shape....

    By Observing everyone actions you take away their secrecy.

    Looking Back I will say that in the Old Days things were simpler but we afforded Pedophiles plenty of Chances...I am Proud to Say None of My Scoutmaster never Molested me or anyone I was in Scouts with to the best of My Knowledge and No One has ever made allegations against them

    But I remember sitting around a Camp fires alone late night with an Adult because I was not Sleepy
    I had a Scoutmaster who paid my way to Summer Camp because I mowed his Yard..Yea he was in his Nineties at the Time but it Was one on one.
    I rode to Events with an Adult alone..
    I was patted on the Back once in a while. (But a Pat is not the Same as a gentle caress on the shoulder or a Pat on the Butt, wrapping up in a Blanket next the fire to stay warm)
    But Nowdays those Violate the YP Today

    OBSERVATION and REPORTING are Your Best Weapons in the YP Arsenal
    Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 12-30-2013, 09:58 PM.


    • #20
      Lets Not Forget That Youth Protection is Not just about Sexual Abuse..It Also cover Physical and Mental Abuse.
      and Again Observation is You Alley...Observe the Scouts, Observe their Behavior...Notice any Changes in their Behavior, A Scout who Suddenly Accident Prone, A Scout who becomes withdrawn. We Don't need Extensive training to Notice these Conditions.


      • #21
        Originally posted by jpstodwftexas View Post
        Lets Not Forget That Youth Protection is Not just about Sexual Abuse..It Also cover Physical and Mental Abuse.
        and Again Observation is You Alley...Observe the Scouts, Observe their Behavior...Notice any Changes in their Behavior, A Scout who Suddenly Accident Prone, A Scout who becomes withdrawn. We Don't need Extensive training to Notice these Conditions.
        Exactly!!! When I was a very young ASM, I did YPT at summer camp, and the next day I saw a middle-aged guy grab a kid by the collar and shake him. I was really upset but I was also pretty scared of the prospect of walking into the office to report it. A few minutes later I saw a middle-aged guy that was in the YPT session with me and I told him what I saw and what did he think, and he says "that's all for sex stuff, anyway he didn't hurt the kid and it's probably his son." I was an idiot and I let it lay at that, and I'll kick myself forever.

        The YPT is great for prevention, but it overemphasizes sexual abuse and doesn't talk enough about physical abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect, and people can't much be blamed for walking away thinking that it's only about sex.


        • jpstodwftexas
          jpstodwftexas commented
          Editing a comment
          Your Correct we need to get out of the Habit of just Viewing YP as strictly as Prevention of Sexual Abuse

          In your situation Sadly You Failed....Why.... The fear to wrongfully accusing someone Policy you should have report the incident to the Camp Director and they should have investigated the incident and if Necessary reported it to police. Nobody wants to be wrongfully accused of anything, hence our own reluctance to report seemingly innocent incidents. That is why we need to be better aware of the situation by Observing the incident for an extended period of time instead of a Couple of Seconds and be ready to step in immediately and to report everything you seen to the Event Coordinator and let the situation. At Work we call that "Getting the Monkey off your Back" or "CYA" or Covering your Own A@@. You failed in the Basic Objective...Report the Incident

          Best Case Scenario...It was Dad and the Kid was Hard Headed and was not hurt
          Worst Case...Victim of Any Abuse Type being Harassed by Abuser

          How can Things be Viewed is easily changed by an extended observation
          For Example....
          Your Walking along and see a Tiger holding the Hands of a Middle aged Scouter in Uniform, your first Thoughts are either
          A. Cub and Dad
          B. Cub and Abuser
          from there it can evolve into anything..You can make an immediate assessment of the Situation without any Evidence or Observe for awhile longer..
          And after Observing for a Few More Minutes you here
          A. Cub to Scouter "Dad, can we go by the Trading Post and buy a Walking Stick. I want to buy a Pocket Knife"
          B. Scouter to Cub " Billy, This is our Secret and you have to promise not to tell anyone what we did"
          If A your Okay If B your Obligation has suddenly changed and You must report it...
          How Would you handle it is based on Training and Emotions. When and how we step in is another Matter.

          Do you rush in and accuse the Scouter
          Do you Follow and somehow get someone else to observe as another witness to the situation?
          Do you immediate run to report the incident and leave the Child alone?
          Are you sure You Know you can correctly Identify the Cub and the Scouter?
          If You have a Camera should you take Pictures? Would you even think about Taking Pictures?

          At Work we have a saying "Make yourself a Better Witness, be able to paint a picture of the Situation" Be able to tell the 5 W's...Who What When Where Why

      • #22
        I will need to retake YPT, it’s been a year.. I have another year before I need to retake. I don’t think I have ever retaken it over a two year gap where it wasn’t totally redone and different. The last time I took it I thought I applauded the addition of some info an mental & physical abuse.. Not much, but definitely it was there, and I had been looking for it.

        That is because I have never hit the physical or sexual abuse, but on two separate occasions, I have had to deal with a person I thought created mental abuse for our scouts. One problem with it is that parents second guess reporting it. They don’t want it to come across as overprotective parents. Even with me as a sounding board and telling them they were not over reacting and pushing them to speak up they would not..

        Also I hope the Council has changed how they handled it from around 2000.. At that time 3 different people had to report on the same person with 3 separate issues.. I came in and gave the DE (what I think was) the first complaint.. He said his hands were tied until 2 others came in. Other parents with the same issue feared reporting it.. So it took 5 years and 2 other reports over that time period (that I knew of) before Council swooped in assessed the situation. They concluded the SM was indeed abusive to select scouts he did not think worthy. He can no longer volunteer for BSA. No police, no jail time. But, then I think the actions didn’t cause either.. You can’t arrest a person for allowing the “preferred” of a group to do events and activities, the “unworthy” were not invited to.. Or for yelling at kids and belittling them..

        The other one was an in troop Merit Badge Councilor. I got reports by two different parents of another MBC who was totally nasty to the scouts and both scouts were ready to give up scouting due to her. I was MBC for the same merit badge which was Family Life. Both reports were very similar, and both parents did not want to report it for fear that it would look bad that their son could not handle the situation. I had to report the woman and the incident to the SM and committee with (correction I meant to say without) naming names.. Luckily they took it seriously without the names of the scouts, and she was removed from the list of recommended MBC’s.

        But, when YPT was still an in-person course I would ask about mental & physical abuse, and the trainers really had not much to add of how to report it, or what should be taken seriously and what not.. They, just agreed it was also something that should be seriously looked into. Then came the on-line training, which had nothing.. Until, I thought I saw a change in the last YPT course I took..
        Last edited by moosetracker; 12-31-2013, 04:34 PM.


        • fred johnson
          fred johnson commented
          Editing a comment
          Thank you moosetracker. very helpful comments.

      • #23

        Many, maybe most of these type of situations are pretty much things the unit will need to deal with through their committee and/or sponsor, as they are usually very ambiguous and subjective. Ultimately, it still is the our responsibility as a leader to try to recognize possible problems with interactions and find solutions. Never ignore a boy's complaint; but make sure you do not jump to a conclusion either. Of course, if you have a number of similar concerns from others, it needs to dealt with. And on occasion, that could mean a difficult decision. But we need to make them when needed; otherwise, we are not doing our best.


        • moosetracker
          moosetracker commented
          Editing a comment
          Very true, which is why the MBC was handled within the unit. But, the SM had to be handled outside or not at all. They had an "Friends of" for CO.. And that was in name only, no one really did the job. The SM was a charmer, those whose kids he showered in extra attention loved his methods and practically treated him as a saint. He had got his Silver Beaver by having parents during the scout meeting organizing all his work that he then presented. He was a big wig of the Council and put on an air that he was even more then that, had all the answers and was always right. The parents with scouts who were "unworthy" feared that due to his perceived position, no one in the council would pay attention to him.. Most just left.. I know of two who stayed and tried to earn their Eagle in spite of being on the "wrong" list.. One almost didn't make it. Age 18 he had done all that National required, (including the fact his BOR's would always be extra hard and grueling in order to turn him down.) The one troop requirement he couldn't get. Per troop rules he had to be SPL and the SM choose the group of scouts that were "worthy" of consideration for the position.. Surprise, Surprise.. He never made the cut. He finally got the SM to reluctantly sign his paperwork by his father threatening to go to council to complain over the procedure.. So he got through, but unfortunately he was not one of the verbal complaints.. The other one was younger and so did not get to the 18 yo cutoff before the SM was removed. He made his Eagle but barely due to the extra hurdles he had to endure, plus the verbal abuse of the SM telling him how worthless he was, and promising him he would make sure he never made Eagle..

          The question was why do scouts and parents stay with an abusive troop. I understand wanting to continue with scouts.. These scouts, as my son probably saw the Eagle rank as a goal due to this SM telling them over and over how unworthy and unqualified they were, and how they would never make it.. For my son, we moved him to a different troop so he could ENJOY his time in scouting, while working to prove this person wrong.. For these two boys they felt the need to make Eagle under the abuse of this SM, as if going to a different troop was cheating.. Many boys and parents just dropped out with the abuse. Some also moved to other troops.. But at least two other parents had the guts to report the SM's actions.

      • #24
        The Online BSA Youth Protection is still exactly the Same it was Last year, nothing has changed. I Find it interesting that the State of Texas requires Youth Protection for all Camp Staff or Adult Attendees( Working or Attending more than 72) in the State for Camps ..Boy Scout, Girl Scout, Football, Soccer, Band..They use the BSA Youth Protection Video..They just require it to be taken Face to Face. Once your Trained you can Administer the test..They Stop the Video at Certain Points and Class Discusses the Situation...and Test is a Written Test and your Required 70% to pass...( answers are the same as the Online BSA Video Test)