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  • #16
    When you guys are saying glide I assume you mean streamline. Gliding is usually referred to as part of the normal stroke pattern. There are schools of thought that there can be over gliding where there is a pause in the stroke and it causes inefficient in the stroke. But even with these inefficiences it is not something that should DQ a swimmer.


    • #17
      Swimming a mile non stop in a scy gets really boring. To be honest I don't think I have ever swam a mile in the pool. I have done 1650 scy and 1500 m just because those are traditionally recognized distances. A mile would actually be 1760y since that would end in the middle of a pool I would think you would end up with 1775y.


      • #18
        Unfortunately, with more and more laws coming out, I see more camps having pools for swimming than lakes.

        The camp I grew up at had a huge man-made lake with a swimming area made just for that reason (when water levels are low and you hike to the right spot on the backside of the camp, you can see part of the bulldozer that was left behind). So when I saw pictures of the brand new swimming pool, I had to ask why the council wasted all the money building it and maintaining it when they already had a waterfront. I was told that it was for legal reasons, specifically to be compliant with one set of laws dealing with under 18 workers and waterfronts. After reading the laws, I then realized why BSA watered down BSA LIfeguard, taking out the boating rescues. It would be against the law for Scouts and Venturers under 18 to do that type of training and work in that type of environment.


        • #19
          Thanks all for the feedback. See next question on rafting.


          • #20
            Originally posted by Brewmeister View Post
            It depends what your goal is.
            Y'all need to quit making irrelevant statements just to discount something you don't personally like about the requirement.

            The requirements do NOT specify "rip tide" or "shark infested water." They do specify "open water" and the ability to swim a "course."

            You might as well argue your "open water" means that you swim without the pool cover, or that you only go when the pool is "open."

            But as always, it's up to whoever is administering the award to sign off on whatever he or she feels qualifies.
            Ironically, while getting riled up over my choice of rhetoric, you demonstrate my point perfectly: You want to speak from a position of authority assumed by interpreting them as strictly as possible, yet you do so from a position of ignorance.

            That is exactly why the Guide to Advancement specifically addresses the "no more, no less" issue.

            For your enlightenment, the requirement regarding the actual swimming reads "Swim one mile over a measured course that has been approved by the trained instructor who will supervise the swim."
            Not one mention of what type or size of the body of water. And as pcola pointed out, for those who read more that what's actually written on the page, the literature references swimming pools 3 times, but silence from you on the issue.
            Like I said, tin gods.

            It's admirable and desirable to push our boys to reach their full potential, and I know that's your goal, but in the course of doing so we do not help them by making up requirements that don't exist.
            Last edited by Scouter99; 10-20-2013, 07:29 PM.


            • jpstodwftexas
              jpstodwftexas commented
              Editing a comment
              Ouch...that's got hurt the ol' ego

            • Brewmeister
              Brewmeister commented
              Editing a comment
              I didn't catch pcola's note and admit I didn't have the expansive Aquatics Supervision guide. I was going solely based on what the wording of the award specified. However, reading the Guide, it does indeed specify that a pool is fine, so I am wrong on this point completely. My apologies.

              However, I do draw the line at shark-infested waters
              Last edited by Brewmeister; 10-21-2013, 06:45 AM.

            • dedkad
              dedkad commented
              Editing a comment
              Brew, I admire your integrity.

          • #21
            Yah, hmmmm...

            So da actual requirements themselves, which are what da BSA defines as the sole authority on awards, are unclear. I think that leaves it up to da individuals who are making the award to decide on how to interpret it. Da Aquatics Supervision Manual has no authority to supersede or correct the Advancement Requirements. It's a guidance document for those doin' Aquatics Supervision.

            I think da clear intent of the Mile Swim is made clear by havin' the boys discuss safety with the counselor for long distance open water swims, eh? Why would we ask all the lads to do that as part of da requirements if we didn't really intend this to be an open water event? As others have said, swimmin' in a pool is a very different thing, physically and psychologically.

            So I'd suggest that da way to view this is that it is meant to be an open water swim. In those cases or areas where boys don't have ready access to suitable open water (drought, shark infestation, sanitation, etc.), then it's OK to use a pool instead. But da pool should not be da first choice for a scout who is on his honor to do his best, nor should it be da first choice for a scouter runnin' a program who is on his/her honor to do the best for the boys in the program.

            I reckon it does speak a bit to the way we keep Disney-ifyin' Scouting. Lads can ostensibly do Climbing MB in an indoor park facility as well, but I would never recommend that. They get so much more out of real rock and gettin' outdoors where Scoutin' belongs, and da safety issues and learning are so much richer outdoors. Heck, if yeh read da Canoein' MB requirements they can all be done in a pool as well, I suppose. Nuthin' says they can't, and da only requirement that would be challengin' would be that 50 yards in a straight line would require a 50m pool. But yeh could do da 50 yard "course" in a regular pool if yeh believe that laps are a "course" as some describe.

            Rather than pink-book lawyerin' da requirements in a way that even shark infestations... I mean lawyers... would be embarrassed by, it seems like we should honor da intent of da requirements to pose a reasonable challenge and adventure to the boys for them to overcome and grow from.


            • Brewmeister
              Brewmeister commented
              Editing a comment
              Except that this is not a case of some leader saying that being in a cabin counts as "camping under the stars" because the building is under the stars, etc. Here you have the BSA issuing its own guidance on how the award may be earned. Saying that the supervision manual "has no authority" to supersede it is a stretch.

              I stand by my original comments that swimming in the open is much more challenging than a pool, and I would encourage any boy to do so because of it. But BSA-authored guidance clearly says that it is not required.

              Hopefully they don't issue similar "guidance" for hiking merit badge counselors, etc....

            • Beavah
              Beavah commented
              Editing a comment
              Yah, like all things yeh have to decide what yeh think da goal is, eh? If yeh think da goal is pink-book lawyerin' da requirements to da minimum possible interpretation, then that's what yeh do. I tend to think da requirements serve the program, not vice versa.

              So I think da way yeh read this is da same way yeh read the stuff about buildin' cooking fires. If yeh live in an area where drought conditions have put yeh under a burn ban for many months at a time, so that the lads can't really get experience with fires, then yeh use the wiggle the requirements give yeh so that the boys can keep advancin'. They don't have to actually light a fire. But if yeh aren't livin' in a drought and the boys do have access, yeh should expect 'em to light a fire.

              Same here. Yeh can do it in a pool, but that should be for cases when the lads don't have reasonable access to open water.

          • #22
            So to give an update. The reason I asked about the mile swim was the pool sessions for swimming mb were going very well. MBC thought he might use mile swim as extras for our high end swimmers for the remaining two sessions. Based on the feedback here, he chose instead to introduce the cool stuff from the lifesaving mb. Scouts had a blast. Thanks.


            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              Good plan. Better Lifesaving skills are more essential for most troops.

            • King Ding Dong
              King Ding Dong commented
              Editing a comment
              What's the uncool stuff from the Lifesaving MB ?

          • #23
            Camp Theodore Roosevelt:: Chesapeake Bay.... 100 feet long pier, buoy waaaay out there.... row boats circling 'round.... Sea Nettles (jelly fish).... rub vaseline ALL OVER legs and chest... jump in off end of pier, swim to the buoy, swim back... rub alcohol ALL OVER sea nettle stings (vaseline didn't help that much).... don't need sharks.... No more Camp Roosevelt ( now the Calvert Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant)....


            • King Ding Dong
              King Ding Dong commented
              Editing a comment
              I saw a show a year or so ago about the exploding population of jellyfish. Could be a big problem.