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  • #16


    • #17
      SP.. If the troop is in New York and the boys are in California, then real boy or not, that boy is not a member of that troop unless the parents are fabulously wealthy and fly them in every week. A real boy or not, if they sign up with the troop and the boy knowing they have no intention to be a member of the troop and it is just to boost the number count.. It is dishonest.
      Oh sure they may help out on one or two community projects as a scout.. But, most likely still work at those project in the shadows of their parents influence.. You can do home schooling to enhance your Childs experience in the world by getting them involved in various community activities, like scouting in a troop, Karate in a Karate school, Art at a local art school.. Or you can use home schooling to control your childrens every waking hour, read up on scouting and run your own program, learn something about Karate and teach your child yourself, try to teach your child your own limited knowledge of Art.. Holding your private Karate and art out in a park, with a parent hovering is not socialization. Nor is doing community service right next to your parents side.

      Why dont you look at all the other articles that came up with your suggested google search, rather then finding searching for one small article that has some notion that children should learn to be adults as soon as they learn to walk, and skip childhood all together.

      PS..SuzyBullett - if you are still looking in, sorry your thread has been hijacked so that we can argue over something else, not related.. Sorry, but if you want to hang around, get use to it.
      (This message has been edited by moosetracker)


      • #18
        Hello Moosetracker,

        I didn't see any reference to a BSA rule that would prohibit or discourage signing up boys as Scouts who don't live in the area.

        What you are doing is voicing your own objections to doing that.

        If someone needs five registered boys for a Troop ---sign 'em up. I see no reason not to do that if someone wants to get a unit off the ground.


        • #19
          Well if you need rules rather then simply doing the honerable thing..

          We just had a poster, who wanted to change councils.. Found a CO in the new council, but didn't plan on using them, instead she planned to hold the meetings in her old council and recruit the kids from her old council.. Both new and old councils said it was against the rules.. Some of these little known rules are not posted, but they are there..


          • #20
            Hello Moose,

            Sorry, I don't see anything dishonorable about it.

            As a district membership chair, I'd have no reservations about signing up a boy as a Scout for a local troop if they lived out of state.

            If there were in fact a rule against that, I'd respect it. But there is no such rule as far as I'm aware, and I wouldn't refuse the application on the theory that there might be one.

            Common advice on this board when someone is told there is a BSA rule against something is to ask that you be SHOWN the rule. That is something you have been unable to do in this instance.


            • #21
              No, but signing up boys you will never see in your unit, never intend to see in your unit, are boys that are only on paper.. ie.. paper scouts..

              Doesn't matter how you got them, they are falsly signed up, in order to bump the numbers.. So glad you are not the membership chair in my district.. That way these phantom scouts you sign up all over the country don't fall off the books in the thousands.. Don't know about a rule, but I know we had a DE fired over this issue. Good enough for me to say someone frowns upon these type of things when they come to the notice of someone who cares to do things the right way.

              The other example I gave were not paper scouts, they were boys who would be given the scouting program, only they would be signed up under the wrong council.. Still it was frowned upon, and both councils said "NO".


              • #22
                Hello Moose,

                These would be applications signed by a parent and the unit leader. All the information on them would be accurate.

                But you want something more --- some metaphysical intention that isn't on the application.

                But the application is all there is.

                The boy is real, the parent is real and the unit leader signing the application is real.

                The money paid for BSA membership fees would be real.

                Beyond that, I think you are quibbling.

                And I don't sign up "phantom Scouts all over the country." You are exaggerating.

                Yesterday I spent two hours along with the District Executive at an event we spent time organizing to perhaps sign up some additional Scouts by the end of the month. We signed up two.

                That was for four hours of our time combined, plus additional time spent to organize an area recruiting sign up on short notice.

                I don't make any apologies for the work I've done as a district membership chair dating back to 2004.

                The other example you gave was an entirely different situation, and both councils decided the effort was wrong. That's a decision to which I have no objection, and if you find some actual rule that supports your unsubstantiated opinion and bias, I'd be glad to reconsider my opinion that there is nothing wrong with signing up a boy for a local unit who resides out of state.

                (This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)


                • #23
                  So what does the boy get out of it?

                  He is registered with BSA.

                  He never attends meetings, never advances, never goes to camp, never learns what it is to be a Scout.

                  Never is really a Scout at all. Except on paper.

                  So, how is that good for the boy?


                  • #24
                    Maybe he gets something out of it, maybe he doesn't. You never really know the consequences of joining BSA when you fill out an application.

                    Perhaps the boy will join the troop at camp. Perhaps he will earn his Eagle in the end.

                    I simply see no reason why a local unit can't have an out of state youth join BSA and their troop if the parents complete the application and the membership fee is paid.


                    • #25
                      SP - I don't doubt you work hard to get in new members the right way. I know you work hard, and have done great things in your district.. Does not mean that in the end if your DE is low on his expected percentages, that padding the numbers with boys who will never be scouts is the right thing to do.. You would not be doing it for the boy, you signed up, you would be doing it to get your DE his pay raise.. Likewise, a unit doing the same thing so that they can have a troop of 2 boys, are not doing it for the 3 out-of-state boys they sign up.. They aren't even doing it for the 2 boys in the program, as a troop of 2 is not a troop the 2 boys can benefit from.. They are doing it to cheat the system, and get registered.

                      I am not a DE, so I am not privileged to all the rules & regs the DEs may have before them.. Perhaps you found a loophole to the definition of a paper scout.Perhaps you have the DE's rules of conduct, and it has a specific definition to what a paper scout is.. I don't have privie to the rule don't even know that one exists at all. Just know DE's will be fired over it.

                      What I do know is the intent of the rules.. 5 scouts in a unit is because you do not have a healthy program with fewer.. Finding scouts (real or not) to sign up that will never be a member of the troop is skirting the intent of the rule for self-gain..

                      If a DE is padding his recruitment numbers with scouts (real or not) who will never be a scout, then again they are looking for loopholes around the intent of requirement, in order to get a pay raise or promotion.

                      Sometimes National though is just as bad, sometimes they frown on it, and fire people. Other times they ignore it, because good head counts means more donation money.. Still even if National is willing to ignore it, for self gain.. Does not make it ethically right.

                      There are such things as ethics, and ethics do not need to have every way of breaking ethics written down in a book, or it's against the law.. It just has to say that finding a loop hole and using it for self gain, is wrong..

                      Depending on how ethical your company is, you can be fired over it.. Whether the exact thing you do that is a lack of ethics is thought of and written specifically down or not. If not fired, you can seriously loose respect and trust among your colleague for a lack of ethics..

                      The bankers put this whole country in a recession due to loopholes they found in order to make money for themselves.. Doesnt mean that the public is patting them on the back and saying.. We support you, because there was no specific rule against what you did. You found a way to line your own pockets at the expense of others. It was not your fault you found a loophole and took it for self gain.

                      (This message has been edited by moosetracker)


                      • #26
                        I was appointed to be a "paper advisor", but hate paperwork, so decided to give the real thing a go. I'd like to think it's been a benefit to all parties involved, but you'd have to ask around when I'm not in the room. Some people are just too nice!!!

                        My opinion: if you do enroll remote scouts, do whatever it takes to integrate them into the troop. Skype everyone in for a couple of minutes each week. Share pictures of what y'all have been up to. Try planning a road trip to a central location (NASCAR races, air shows, or baseball games offer plenty of opportunities.) Let the remote scouts know they are vital to your troops existence in more than just a "boy scouts love paperwork" kind of way.

                        In other words, take the BS out of the BS of A.


                        • #27
                          Hello moosetracker,

                          I share your concern over phoney membership numbers. I think it's regrettable that staff members can be so pressured over membership numbers that phoneying up numbers or the unemployment line are the only apparent choices.

                          And the membership numbers in my district are down --- by about a dozen boys. That no doubt did cause my DE (hired last September) to look for a way to improve the numbers on the last day of June.

                          But the area recruiting event we held was entirely legitimate. The two boys we recruited are real, one of them for my Cub Pack.

                          I am not aware that my council has had issues with phoney membership numbers in the eight years I've been a district membership chair. I'm not in the information loop reliably enough to know for sure, but usually I suspect those things would become common knowledge after the fact when the phoney numbers inevitably have to be adjusted to reflect reality.

                          In the couple of hours the DE and I spent together Saturday, we discussed the problems we had with recruiting this spring and how we might improve them. I suspect we can improve those numbers and very likely recover from that deficit this fall.

                          You can be overly suspicious of such things too, distrusting even honest efforts to deal with the realities of Scouting.


                          Well, that's the rule, just as you say --- although often waived to get a new troop started.

                          But when I suggested that this number be achieved by obtaining Scout applications signed by real parents for real boys paid for with real dollars --- I continue to suggest that is a ***REAL*** membership. You maintain that some metaphysical extra is required, but it isn't.

                          I think your sensitivity to the fake membership scandals is making you overly sensitive in this case. Heavens! It's a GIGANTIC NUISANCE jumping through BSA's hoops to register a boy, let alone an adult, already! This has to be yet MORE complex?

                          But perhaps we will simply disagree on this issue. There might be reasons to discourage forming a competing Scout Troop as described in the opening post of this thread. But in general, I wouldn't regret explaining to those forming a new unit how they might get the additional applications needed to get a new troop started.


                          • #28
                            I would accept lowering the 5 count rule to get to get a new unit started.. It is above board, no one is doing creative accounting for it.. Troop membership is 2, and 5 count rule is waved in the first year to get the unit started..

                            I don't doubt your 2 scouts you sat for hours to recruit were not hard work, and valid work.. Nor that keeping the membership numbers at least equal to last year (forget increased by x percent over last years numbers) has become impossible.. I also feel for DE's who may suffer in their paycheck, or have their jobs threatened..

                            But, your DE is not in the majority to be down in membership count, and although National may not like the numbers as it not only does it affect their donation dollars, it points to the fact that their program is no longer working..

                            Now we can argue it is because of :
                            The increase in the selection of children programs are giving scouts difficult competition.
                            The weakening of the program to be less on scout craft, and more about passing out rewards. Has kids finding the program not challenging or worthy enough.
                            Not allowing in the 3 G's gays, godless, girls is hurting the numbers (or limiting the pool of potential recruits).
                            There are fewer adults willing to volunteer their time, which causes poor program.
                            The adults are not trained enough, which causes poor program
                            or 100 other reasons..

                            Fact is, National just has to look at reality, and bite the bullet, and stop blameing the DE's for not being able to do the impossible.. Also to stop analyzing and tinkering from up high in their ivory towers. They need to be scared enough to come down to earth to interact with the volunteers, and get a reality check.

                            Padding numbers allows them to continue to stay up in their ivory towers patting themselves on the back about how marvelous they are.


                            • #29
                              Is it for the boys? If so, then forget what the adults want and do what the boys want.

                              Consider Lone Scouting for the boys, or found your own unit without BSA in support and run a traditional scout troop without them. Use military garb for your uniforms, and get badges from the baden powell scout association.


                              Folks in BSA are always saying like it or leave it - turns out it is easy to leave. Really easy. With BSA's falling membership levels and street cred among employers in urban areas, you're probably doing your kids a service. No COR required, no minimum committee. You can be a scoutmaster to the two boys and just run with it like they did in the old days. If others join - cool. Make your own uniforms from army/navy surplus.

                              The boys will not care where the scouting is coming from.

                              Possible negatives: No access to boy scout camps, no ability to say later "I am an eagle scout." In 20 years, none of that may matter with BSA on target to financially implode by then.

                              A positive: the adults can do the scouting too, earn the badges, and do things right alongside the youth - together - rather than just attending endless leadership and policy administration training. Like BSA was back in the 10's and 20's.

                              BSA is a horrible franchiser. They are as oppressive and controlling as any franchise company, and the support they provide is largely them coming around asking you for more donations.

                              Do what any business would do when their franchiser stinks. Go independent and change the name of your restaurant. I doubt the customers will care.(This message has been edited by BSA24)


                              • #30
                                Hello moosetracker,

                                Well, the district was down by 12 Cub Scouts. Add the two who joined Saturday, we were down by ten.

                                Our DE was just hired in September, and lack of experience hurt with spring recruiting. In particular, he did his unit recruiting schedule on his own, without working with me.

                                I flatter myself that that hurt.

                                We had two hours Saturday for me to talk his ear off about how we could improve recruiting results this fall, and my aim is to have membership growth for the year, which I think is practical.

                                My district has had 1-3% membership growth each year for a good many years now, and we should be able to continue that this year.

                                As an example, my August Cub Scout Roundtable will be our district Fall Recruiting Kickoff, and I'll also be using it as an area recruiting event to recruit some new Cub Scouts.

                                It will be featuring my famous Stomp Bottle Rocket Launch Recruiting Night, the most powerful method of attracting new families I know about. district unit leaders will be invited to bring their Cub Scouts and experience that recruiting event as if they were new to Cub Scouts.

                                My hope is that they will be using the methods they see at their own unit recruiting nights this fall.

                                The aim will be to demonstrate the best methods available for unit leaders, and to encourage them to replicate that for their own Cub Packs.

                                So I aint waving any stinkin' white flag! It's not necessary, in my opinion.