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May 23rd predictions and post-vote plans

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  • May 23rd predictions and post-vote plans

    The big vote is right around the corner. Any thoughts on how it might turn out?

    Personally, I suspect it will go in favor of allowing gay scouts. I just don't think there is enough support for the exclusion of kids. If this were a combined vote, asking people to allow or disallow gay scouts and adults at the same time, I think there would be far stronger support for maintaining the current ban.

    If, somehow, it goes badly (in my opinion) then there's no future in Scouting for my family. We'll be looking at alternative organizations like the BPSA. I would continue to push the BSA to change the policy and hope that they did eventually change it, and I would continue to hold my Eagle medal and retain my rank (I'm not in favor of giving up the rank in opposition to a policy, I think Eagles should hold their rank and push the organization to right a wrong). But I couldn't in good conscience enroll my kids in the program knowing that after repeated defeats to efforts to make the change happen, it was highly unlikely that any significant change would occur any time soon.


  • #2
    EmberMike, as much as I agree with your views on this, none of us can truly 'know' how we will respond until whatever-is-going-to-happen happens. Wait until we see the outcome, then report what we have done in response. Those things we CAN truly know.

    Comment


    • #3
      We have a cub scout mom starting a BPSA unit for her 7yo daughter. We will be running the BPSA program in parallel to our cub scout program and treating the BPSA unit just like a den.

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        I am not sure what you get for your membership fee with the BPSA.....Most of the awards are out of canada. I will say I do like their uniforms better than the BSA.

        We are using the program with a sibling den in the Pack....Not paid the fee.. Again not sure what we are getting for the dollars.

        The BPSA Den leaders are BSA Pack members so they have been background checked with the BSA and have current BSA youth protection training.

      • DigitalScout
        DigitalScout commented
        Editing a comment
        My plan is the same: have the BPSA unit leaders registered as BSA den leaders for the background check and training.

        I'll pay the BPSA fee if anything just to support them. I'all take it out of my FOS contribution.

        Our CO thinks it's a great idea and is very supportive. They are awesome like that.

      • ghjim
        ghjim commented
        Editing a comment
        I wonder if the BSA will try to stop BPSA in the U.S. in the event that it starts to grow. They have done that before with other scouting programs.

    • #4
      IS THE NEW POLICY ENACTED? (YES / NO)

      YES - THE NEW POLICY IS ENACTED:

      - See if our C.O. drops us (YES / NO)

      - If YES:

      - Work with troop on attempting to find new C.O. Maybe quit. See what my son wants to do.

      - If NO:

      - Carry on as usual, unless there is a sudden influx of avowed homosexual scouts.

      IS THERE A SUDDEN INFLUX OF AVOWED HOMOSEXUAL SCOUTS? (YES / NO)

      - If NO:

      - Carry on as usual. Suggest we initiate testing to confirm presence of covert infiltrators (assign point scale for how they cross their legs, how they hold a baseball bat, unusual or excessive knowledge of show tune lyrics, etc.) just in case.

      - If YES:

      - Discuss how we handle youth safety procedures in light of the new policy.

      - Assess how much things change, and how rapidly (becoming co-ed, admitting atheists, admitting adult homosexuals) before making decisions on whether to withdraw.

      - If problems are insurmountable, withdraw.

      Old Policy Affirmed:

      - Carry on as normal. No one has mentioned leaving our troop if the policy is not changed.

      - Prepare for flag-planting ceremony at Veteran's Cemetery.

      - Prepare for next camp-out.

      - Waste countless hours reading and posting about the subject on Scouter.com until the technical bugs get so bad I stop posting.

      Comment


      • DigitalScout
        DigitalScout commented
        Editing a comment
        If leg crossing, awkward bat holding and excessive show tune singing are the criteria, then 90% of the dad's in our troop are surely gay :P

    • #5
      Originally posted by AZMike View Post
      Carry on as usual. Suggest we initiate testing to confirm presence of covert infiltrators (assign point scale for how they cross their legs, how they hold a baseball bat, unusual or excessive knowledge of show tune lyrics, etc.) just in case.
      That part really made me smile. Thanks AZMike!

      Comment


      • #6
        BPSA founded in 2008 and run out of a guys basement in Washington Mo. (small town outside of St. Louis) 19 units nationwide. Not sure I would jump
        in with both feet with this group if the vote does not go your way. Last I read about them they were looking for donations to fund background checks
        for potential leaders. I guess all groups have to start somewhere.

        Comment


        • Scouter99
          Scouter99 commented
          Editing a comment
          The total cost a a criminal BG check and a check of the child abuse/neglect (which are mutually exclusive in far too many cases) in my state is $25 between two agencies (state police and state DSS); why would anyone need donations to cover that? It's small enough to simply require applicants to cover it themselves.

        • EmberMike
          EmberMike commented
          Editing a comment
          I'd jump into the BPSA with both feet before I'd get back into the BSA with little chance of ever seeing the policy of discrimination ending.

        • ghjim
          ghjim commented
          Editing a comment
          BPUSA is much bigger world-wide. Just starting up in the US.

      • #7
        Scouter99, they were in the midst of trying to fund a variety of line items. The following jumped out at me when I read the material. I started researching the org after several forum
        members started to advocate the group as an alternative to BSA.

        Be able to handle and process proper background checks for all registering adult members in the BPSA as part of our continuing Code of Ethics and Youth Protection policy.

        Comment


        • #8
          I will not leave the scouts if the resolution passes or fails. I will not leave because I will not deny my son the scouting experience. It is a worthwhile and valuable experience, even if the organization includes this horrible flaw. It is not a fatal flaw. If the child abuse scandals did not destroy the BSA, I can't see how the mistreatment of such a small minority is going to destroy it. If I refused to associate with organizations or people who failed to live up to their own ideals, I would find myself very, very isolated.

          I will continue to lobby for change if the resolution passes or fails. I will start wearing a rainbow neckerchief slide to roundtable just to be provocative. I've decided to become provocative because I've been watching the 1982 Gandhi film. I came to appreciate his method very much. A few quotes: "The function of a civil resistance is to provoke response and we will continue to provoke until they respond or change the law." / "And when you do that [turn the other cheek], it calls on something in human nature... something that makes his hatred for you decrease and his respect increase." / "I want to change their minds. I don't want to kill them for weaknesses we all posses."

          I honestly believe that the whole problem is a rather simple matter of us v. them. My attitudes towards homosexuals changed a great deal when I actually had dealings with real live homosexuals in the work place, day after day. We are the same. Homosexuals make up a small minority of Americans. They make up an even smaller minority of scouts. If more scouters had more contact with homosexual scouts and parents, there would be less fear and more acceptance. I don't know how to make that happen.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            I am sure they have met them. They just didn't realize it.

          • EmberMike
            EmberMike commented
            Editing a comment
            The King has it right. Most people have met many gay people in their lives and not known it.

            I sat 10 feet away from a gay guy at the place I worked several years back. Sat right there next to him, 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, working together, talking, B.S.-ing about whatever, etc., for 2 years. I never knew he was gay. He was a guy's guy, grew up in a rural little town out west, was an ice-hockey player in a local adult league, loved the Star Wars films, there was nothing about his outward appearance or his personality that would make you think anything about his sexual preference. Or if it did, it would have you guessing he was straight, just like it had me assuming. It wasn't until years later when I reconnected with him on Facebook that I found out he was gay.

          • raisinemright
            raisinemright commented
            Editing a comment
            Yea, I worked with a guy like that. He wasn't too obnoxious about being gay, then he ended up in jail for pederasty. According to the an article in the archives of Sexual Behavior entitled Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters, 86% of pedophiles are self-described homosexuals. While I firmly agree that not all homosexuals are child molesters, I'm not willing to take that chance with any Scouts under my charge.

        • #9
          Who cares........

          Our local program will not change one bit..........

          There are a couple of Units that have folded or will fold if it passes....... We have received a couple of refugee's at the Pack level and nothing yet at the troop. I have contacted the DE for rosters but he is refusing to give the one units to me because they are still active because they filed a charter 6 months ago.... If he waits till november or december to give them too me it will be too late and we will have lost the boys.

          Comment


          • #10
            and I shall finish the game.... scout on! scout on! scout on!

            I may continue to push internally for what I believe to be the morally correct path for BSA to follow - but it will change very little (if anything) at the local unit level. So long as my sons have an interest, we will be active in scouting.

            Comment


            • #11
              EmberMike, Godspeed

              Comment


              • #12
                Regardless of what decision is made, continue on exactly as we are. What's the big deal?

                Comment


                • EmberMike
                  EmberMike commented
                  Editing a comment
                  To me, the big deal is that I'm currently inactive in Scouting, but with my son quickly approaching Scouting age and my wife and I planning to get him involved in Scouting as soon as he's able, we face the dilemma of having to decide whether to enter back into the organization after a vote that will either reaffirm a discriminatory policy or start the process of ending it. If the vote reaffirms the policy and we still decide to put our son in the program, I feel like we're saying that it's ok to discriminate.

                  I honestly think it's a different story for parents of kids already in the BSA. As it was for my parents. Even just a couple of years ago, the anti-gay policy wasn't as widely known about, even among people who were themselves in the BSA or had kids in the BSA. It wasn't headline news not too long ago. I would certainly fault no one for sticking with it if they started out in the BSA a couple of years ago or more.

                  But entering into the BSA now, it's different, and whether we like it or not, it's making a statement one way or the other. Not many people can say they didn't know much about the policy anymore.

              • #13
                I will continue my involvement with the Boy Scouts of America either way this shakes out.

                Comment


                • #14
                  First, one needs to realize that this vote one-way-or-the-other does not clear up the matter. For me, it's starting to become just a lot of unwelcome noise. Scouting has been a part of my identity for over 40 years, almost as much a part of me as family, church and profession. It would never be easy for me to cut the cord for any reason and policy has always ranked low on my list...kind of came from that school of thought that "rules are meant to be broken" . I am at a bit of a crossroads right now as to level of involvement but it's not really related to this business. Kids are out of Scouting, and I'm approaching the empty nest phase. Work has pressed for most of my attention the last couple of years, so I'm hit-and-miss with Scouting activities as it is. So...no matter what happens at the vote, I'll take it one day at a time, but I will always cherish my Scouting background.

                  Comment


                  • #15
                    WAKWIB, I understand. I'm already past the empty nest phase but with new SM and other turnovers, they want to keep me around for 'continuity' or some such. I'm currently working to help revitalize the committee. Plus there's always a crop of new parents who are unfamiliar with the process. So I do what I can. All of them seem oblivious to the membership policy. I seriously doubt that any of them read the DRP before they sign the application. Some of them are gay. No one seems to care, or even notice. So we just try to ignore the stupidity. I'm sorry for the hate that others see or feel so often.

                    Comment

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