Parents MB Counseling their own youth

[evmori 11]

"The SM may have signed the book, but who sat on the Board of Review? It was the bor's responsibility to see that the the scout fulfilled the requirements as stated in his handbook. Did they ask about what troop or patrol outings he used to meet the requirements?"

 

The BOR can't retest, Bob. And since the requirements in the book were signed off, according to your posts in prior discussion about a similar topic, that should be good enough unless the Scout says "I never did that".

 

I am not going back & dig out the old posts so don't bother asking. If you want to, go ahead.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

Thats a good question Ed, allow me to explain to you how this works.

 

You are right, the board cannot retest. They cannot say "show us how you participated in 10 troop or patrol activities including three campouts, do one for us now."

 

What they can say is "the requirement says to participate in 10 troop or patrol activities including three campouts. Tell us about the three times you camped?

 

If the scout expalins that the campouts were with his family and not the troop, then the board can hold his advancment until he completes the requirement according to the handbook.

 

You can find an explanation of the bor's responsibilities in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Handbook, or at Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training.

 

The difference is following the requirement and being signed off and not following the requirement and being signed off.

 

I hope this helps you,

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[nldscout 18]

VA,

Where is the SM in the picture? No scout can start a MB without a signed MB Card approved by a unit leader. Is she a registered MBC for all the MB's? If she is not why is the troop accepting them?

[Backpacker 11]

Just to clarify the BOR consisted of the COR, CC, and an MC who were all close friends with the SM, so his boys sailed through it. This flagrant violation of the rules has led to the pending demise of that troop and a brand new patrol for my troop.

Bob White- I have not and would never speak for you on any issue. Secondly, I see now I was mistaken welcoming you back, in your absence things were much more peaceful and civil and opinions of others were treated with respect whether or not a person agreed. Since your return your attempts to belittle others is very unscoutlike as well as casting a dark cloud in these threads. Your attempt at feeling superior to others in here by demeaning them is uncalled for. Start living what you preach Bobby.

[Bob White 20]

I will let your own words speak for you

 

Back packer quote 1

"IMHO this was a flagrant violation of the spirit and purpose of the scout law,in spite of what BW may think.

 

Back Packer quote 2

Bob White- I have not and would never speak for you on any issue.

 

I never said I thought skipping over requirements was OK, you said I did.

 

BW

 

[Backpacker 11]

Learn to read Bobby, I said I didn't care what you thought because I really don't. Man you are as arrogant as ever, I guess your time away didn't help you to reflect on your aggressive mannerisms, too bad. So if anyone is misquoting anyone it is you my friend. Try to remember to use scoutlike conduct here Bob.

[VAordeal 10]

yes nldscouter, this person is a counselor for all the MBs. Bob White, im sorry for not being detailed (sarcasim) I am referring to about 10 to 13 MBs in this situation. So the procedures are very legal, there are no rules being violated here. It is just very annoying becasue this parent in question does not even offer them to us. Oh well...

[evmori 11]

...... and by having a Troop policy "A parent is not permitted to be the MB counselor for his/her son's merit badge unless it is offered and completed in a group setting" or something similar would prevent a mom like this from "rubber stamping" merit badges for their son.

 

 

And BTW Bob, your response to my last post was completely contradictory to your previous posts regarding similar situations.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Bob White 20]

VAscouter, While I empathize with your frustration and agree that a MB counselor should be willing to work with any scout thay are not violating any rule as far as I can find. If your SM is concerned about the situation he should notify the District advancement committee.

 

BW

 

 

[dsteele 20]

Nldscouter brought up the point I was going to make. Unfortuantely, I think his excellent point was over-ridden by some static going on.

 

The Scoutmaster is supposed to sign the merit badge card before work begins. This is a time for the Scoutmaster (not troop policy) to determine with the Scout who the best counselor (from a list of approved counselors) for that Scout on that badge should be. It is also an opportunity for the Scoutmaster to discuss the merit badge and the preparation, etc. needed on the part of the Scout.

 

This assumes, however, that the Scoutmaster has the guts and backing of others to say, "Billy, I think it is important that you take XYZ merit badge from someone other than your father/mother/uncle's sister's aunt's donkey, etc."

 

Unc.

[busylady 10]

Good thread, despite the static.

 

Backpacker, I can sympathize. I have several scouts in our troop now that were "rubber stamped" through ranks by an SM because they were children of cronies (one just came up for his Scoutmaster review for Star under our new SM and could not recite the Oath or the Law!!).

 

Things under the previous SM were very lax--we have no Scouts out of a troop of over 30 who even know what a MB "blue card" is. Trouble is, to even question previous MBs (done by unregistered counselors--none were registered until this year because SM didn't think it was necessary) will bring a heap of trouble on truly deserving Eagle candidates, so we're just going to have to start from this point.

 

(BTW, the former policies have caused untold problems within adult leadership that have had to be resolved, not without great heartache. We are fortunate to have new ASM candidates stepping forward.)

 

Despite what the National policy may be, I think parents teaching their children is a difficult one which needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis (I homeschool, too, Vicki, so I have some idea of both sides). Although I have no problem with Scouts working with parents (obviously!), there HAS TO BE a way the Scout can demonstrate to someone else that they really have done the work to the best of their ability. The SM must understand that he is a critical point in approving the Scout-counselor mix and that his judgment and discretion are key to making this system work well.

 

If the young man being brought along by his mom for a "million" badges (sorry, BW) can demonstrate that he truly understands these badges, my applause. Others may be jealous, but have they asked if she can help? Why has the SM not indicated the need for her to help others, too?

 

In the position I am in right now with our troop, I have to ask if the parent-son MB policy is in the best interest of Scouting if there is no way to verify the "end product", so to speak. I'm dealing with the flip side--when this policy was abused, and the parent teaches the son so he "learns" the topic "good enough".

 

This is yet another situation where parents want their children to be "overachievers" and will do everything to facilitate them getting every badge possible (sometimes, but not always, at the expense of quality learning). We certainly are not alone--other youth organizations wrestle with this one, too.

 

However, we can't cut off a wonderful, rich resource (parents) because of the ones that abuse the process with their own children.

 

My apologies to whoever posted this troop's policy, but I agree that extensively training prospective MBCs is probably a first step to weeding out those interested only in working with their own sons, to the exclusion of others . . .

 

In sum, I would say be very careful: I've learned from bitter experience that Scout policies were designed for a reason and work well when they're used correctly (and create untold chaos when they're not). That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement (including the policy manuals, which are cumbersome), but let's help each other understand the current policies so we can make constructive, useful analyses of the problems that may exist.

 

I'll look forward to continuing to read . . .

 

busylady

[FScouter 24]

How does a SM select the best counselor for a boy? What counselor characteristics would be more suitable for one boy over another? How does a SM determine how to best match the characteristics of a counselor to a particular boy? Are there any guidelines that a SM can use to select the appropriate counselor for a boy?

[busylady 10]

Hi, FScouter:

 

To my knowledge, there are no guidelines about how to do this, but these are my thoughts:

 

If the SM is fortunate enough to have a choice, he should look at the scout's learning speed. Does he read well, or is reading not his strength? What type of learner is he (my apologies if you know, but there are three types--visual, who is almost always a good reader; audio who learns by hearing; and kinesthetic, who learns with his hands--this is the kid that can build anything). How does the scout relate with others? Is he the life of the party, or is he more serious? Quiet? A leader? A follower?

 

By the time a scout has obtained a couple of ranks, the SM should have someone available to him who has a fair idea of how to answer these questions, assuming the SM can't.

 

From there, if I was SM, I would try to match the scout with someone your people-sense tells you can work with him based on what you know. Someone highly book oriented could frustrate a kinesthetic learner, while someone mechanically oriented could make your "bookworm" feel incapable.

 

Again, if there is a choice, maybe the SM could suggest that the counselor and scout have a preliminary meeting to discuss working together, such as a plan for working on the badge, what is required, etc., and ask them to get back to him with honest feedback as to whether each feels they can work together (realizing for the scout that learning to work with others is a learning experience, too).

 

In a group situation, the counselor can actively seek out scouts that can work together, which can "extend" the type of scout the counselor works best with. By teaching, the scout is reinforcing his own knowledge.

 

Yeah, this is probably the best-case scenario, and the real world doesn't always operate on best cases. But if ya don't aim for something, how can you know you need to improve, or that it's meeting or even exceeding what you want to achieve?

 

busylady

[John-in-KC 311]

To all,

 

Thank you. I think what I'm going to do, for my Troop, is simply have a quiet conversation with the Scoutmaster: Ask him not to assign Scouts to their own parents for counseling a MB. We're in a LARGE council, with lots of options for every MB in the program.

 

Scoutmaster controls MB counselor assignment. That is the right point of management for this issue going forward.

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

 

YIS.

[FScouter 24]

Hmm I wonder if I have enough extra time to interview or otherwise get to know and categorize several counselors for each merit badge. There are well over 700 counselors on our district MB counselor list. Maybe the district Advancement Committee person in charge of approving and registering counselors would be better able to rank the characteristics of the counselors that submit applications? Counselors for bookworms, counselors for active boys, counselors for shy boys. Other categories? Maybe a category of counselor qualified for any boy?

 

Im just thinking out loud here, but I cant help wondering why there would be registered, approved counselors that are not equipped to properly counsel boys. Then I wonder how I can reasonably be expected to select the best one and why that would even be necessary. How important is it that a boy have the best counselor?

 

This brings to mind, is it possible for an adult be a good SM to all types of boys? Are MB counselors less capable? Surely we dont select Scoutmasters that are only good with shy boys or bookworms. Or is it more important for MB counselors to specialize in specific types of boy personalities? I dont know.

 

Then I have to wonder how important SM selection of the boys MB counselor must be if our national organization has not addressed the question at all.