Eagle Preparation: are we really doing the Scouts a disservice?

[Fuzzy Bear]

A few thoughts after reading everyone's posts.

 

My Dad and Mom showed up at my Eagle COH. Attendance at that one event was their way of showing their active support but then that was in 1964. I appreciated all that they did for me.

 

I simply enjoyed Scouting.

 

Somewhere, I was told that the First Class Emphasis was sparked by a study from National that showed that if a Scout could reach First Class, they would stay with Scouting. I am sure the Executives began running around waving their hands wildly above their heads when they heard the news. It is that kind of deductive reasoning that got people to thinking about how birds fly and how people could do the same. The results of thinking about being up in the air is what creates flying behaviors fell far short of the theory. OGE expressed it best by stating that now leaders think that boys are failures if they don't reach First Class in the first year. So, that is the same proof used when people fell instead of flying. The theory proved them to be a failure. Somebody out there should be able to flap and fly. What was wrong?

 

I still say that good program beats a Royal Straight Flush any day of the week.

 

By the way, it was BW that put me straight about the percentage of Eagles being less than 5%, even with the push to First Class. It was less than 5% even when I made Eagle and I learned Morse Code...---...

 

 

FOG's assertion that we are pushing is correct but the National figures should be inspected a little more closely for trends. It may be time to set aside the LDS unit figures and look at what the rest of us are really are doing with advancement. It may be that only 1% or 2% make Eagle. It appears that pushing doesn't work or flapping.

 

I agree with OGE about not putting roadblocks in front of Eagle but then program must be first. I think I should define program. Program is a theme with activities. Many activities, exciting activities, activities planned and carried out by the Scouts, activities that are supported by the committee and the parents.

 

Red Feather wants 95% success rate for Eagle. He certainly has a positive attitude. I agree that 95% reaches the threshold of the Eagle Mill analogy. My question is why not push for the 50 mile patch AFLOAT for one year. Every Scout earns the Swimming and Lifesaving merit badges after learning basic swim strokes. Then every Scout learns the Safety Afloat and Safe Swim rules. Then there are several meetings where there are swim meets within the unit and a Troop planned District meet. Everyone earns the First Aid merit Badge and puts together the gear for Safety Afloat. Everyone then earns the Scout Life guard. A couple of the campouts are canoe, safe swim and campout events. Everybody then earns all of the boating badges over a three month period. Then it comes down to having your own Summer Camp on the water where 50 miles are done by canoe, 50 by paddle and 50 by sail. What a year or six month program!

 

I disagree with BadenP about all of the inferior projects. My disagreement stands on lack of evidence either way. On this issue, it needs to be checked, at least, from the District level before we chunk any rocks. I believe we should make a big deal out of a project and have news people out and bring over city officials. This type of exposure would insure a better quality project. Just think if Mom and Pop threw Junior's project together over a couple of days and it was shown on the 6:00 news. It would not be pretty, especially when he has to tell who he lead during the ordeal.

 

acco40- blame it on my Spell Check because it din't find anyting wrong.

 

Eamonn- it is spelled impossible not imposable, the first is a dream and the other is a wasskel. And by the way, whose Eagle is it really?

 

and best of all, KS who said it better than any of us.

 

Goodnight,

 

FB

 

[BadenP]

Fuzzy

Hindsight is great! The question here was Is the Eagle Prep a disservice to the boys? I think most people here feel that mentality in many scouting units is pushing the boys too fast and too soon and resulting in not really being qualified to receive the Eagle Award, the system is broken and how do we fix it? The Eagle Award is not a right but a privilege. I do not want to see roadblocks put on the scouts, but I do expect them to give their work 100% in effort and quality. Sloppy work does not ever deserve to be rewarded, but that is what is happenning in too many units. Like I stated in an earlier post the Eagle Award no longer carries the status it once did in the corporate world or in the military. There are some lazy SM's out there and their boys efforts mimic their leaders example. Some District and Council leadership need to become more actively involved instead of rubber stamping poor work just so their stats look good.

[LPC_Thumper]

I think it matters to a GREAT extent the rold these official members of units take in their unofficial role. Let me explain what I mean. If you asked me what I do in Scouts, but first answer is always, "I'm our troop's Eagle Advancement Person". You'd think someone like me would know better, "there ain't no position like that in the manual". Nobody even blinks when I say it. What I really am is my primary registration is as a Troop Committee Chairman, I also am our District's Training Chair, and a member of the District Advancement Committee (I conduct Eagle Boards of Review).

 

So when I help our boys get their Eagle what do I do? Well, I don't tell them what Merit Badges to get (that's the role of the BOY and his SM & ASMs) nor do I read ANY of the requirements to them. Again that's the job of the SM, ASMs, or maybe the school. I help them develop the paperwork to get their idea through the process of approval. I'm an editor. I see things from other troops that would just send you crying into the woods.

 

I hear all about you have to make 1st class in 1st year, and think that is a great goal. We have campouts to help our guys gain the knowledge they need for the skills required of a First Class Scout. And who teaches them these skills? Why the older guys of course. And why do the older guys go on these camp outs? Simple, the adults cook for the staff on the Advancement Campouts. We also have some that involve cooking contests, and demos. Our guys love this. If we're not bringing the program... sorry, we thought the program was all about helping to raise (not raising, that's the parent's job) young men of character, who are service minded, aware of their environment, and developing good citizenship traits... or am I confused on that one too?

[John-in-KC]

There are things we as adults rightly should do. If a Scout chooses an Eagle Leadership Service project that requires power tools, we get to provide them, and to man them.

 

If a Scout chooses to do the Veteran's Oral History Program of the Library of Congress for his chartering VFW or Legion Post, I submit a Scout should ask the questions; but I also submit a Scouter who was a (Soldier, Sailor, Marine, or Airman as appropriate) will do better in drawing out the war stories.

 

I see too many Scouts taking their Eagle MBs using the path of least resistance ... the in-troop counselor. My son just took 11 months to finish Personal Fitness ... because he and his out-of-troop counselor had to coordinate schedules. That, to me is a GREAT THING!

 

I want Scouts to see ALL the opportunities that are available to them ... Order of the Arrow, local honor Societies (Mic-o-Say here), Philmont trips, NOAC, Jamborees, Northern Tier, and on and on. I want Scouts to develop the socialization skills needed to survive in our workaday world ... and that means being Brave to contact the out-of-troop counselor. I want Scouts to be able to see the changes in their maturity as they grow up. Finally, I want Scouts to love and fear their God.

 

John

[Bob White]

When someone asks "do we put too much emphasis on Eagle" it begs the question.."who do you mean by we kemosabe" If you mean the BSA then no, not at all, the only rank emphasis they have in Boy Scouts is to First Class. If by we you mean scouters who do not understand or follow the program, then yes, among other mistakes they often put way too much emphasis on achieving Eagle.

 

But that is a personal problem, and not one that can be corrected through anything other than the individual making the effort to better understand and deliver a real scouting program.

 

 

[red feather]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread, but life intrudes at times.

 

When I see new scouts, yes, I see a group of potential Eagles and enjoy the thoughts of their path to that point. But to push them into an Eagle mill that does it all for them is not the program. Many times it the expectation that they will earn their Eagle from a scouter is the push that is needed. Not the hand holding that is seen in some places, but the scouts knowledgle that they are seen to have the capability and the ability to reach Eagle and that they are expected to reach that point from someone outside the familiy.

 

It is True Rewards when a scout reaches Eagle when they are having to juggle all that life puts in their path and they decide that Eagle is important to them. (with some nudging at times ). Also True Rewards when they come up years later and say "Thank you for knowing that I could do it."

 

Eagle mills ... NO. Expectations and help... YES.

 

Would like scouting to reach 5 % some day but that is hopefull thinking. But the expectation should always be much higher and that is the key... the expectaion. Without that the rest falls apart.

 

Off the soap box

 

yis

[Eamonn]

Not sure how I'm going to tie this in but...

I attended a very long and for the most part very boring meeting the other-day.As ever Membership was on the agenda. Different people from different Councils got up and gave a report on how things were going in there Council. Many of these guys spent time saying what percentage of the total available youth they were serving. Many said this with a lot of pride. Numbers seemed to fall in about the 20 percent. Some a little higher and some a little lower. I think it is safe for me to say that I didn't make too many friends when I made the comment that we are failing to reach 70 percent of the youth that could be in our programs.

It could be that if we attract a lot more Scouts into Scouting that the percentage of Eagle Scouts would fall. If I had to choose more Lads in Scouting? Or more Eagle Scouts? I sure as heck wouldn't have to think for very long.

Eamonn.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Eamonn,

 

I would cast my ballot to increase program quality by 90% over the next five years. I would ask Council to back it up with more money expended on council camp programs and the Districts to back it up with better planning, preparation, and staffing of all District activities. I would ask SM's and CC's to back it up with excellent support for all unit campouts and events. I would ask the training committee to make sure that all leaders are well trained and the Commissioner Staff to make sure that all units are trained and operating effectively.

 

The private sector knows that program draws a crowd. It is time that Scouting did the same. As far as Eagle Scouts go, well if that is the goal, then we already know of that failure rate, 95%. As far as drawing a crowd, 20% hasn't done it. Let's try the next best approach, good program and stick with it.

 

FB

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Eamonn]

I'm sorry Fuzzy, somewhere along the line you lost me. Could be that I ate too much at lunch time?

I agree that everything we do comes back to program.

I am a simple enough fellow to believe that program is the answer to all of our failings. A good program will solve all of our membership woes. Scouts will stay in the Troops longer, more youth will want to join in the fun. Parents and local communities will see the good that is being done in and by the program and be more willing to support the organization.

Everyone or at least most people given the choice like to be a member of a winning team, when parents see that their kid is a member of a winning team they are more lightly to step up to the plate and become involved.

I may be in the minority, but I think that too many District Events is a bad thing. I feel that they get in the way of what the troop is doing or should be doing. Even worse, in a lot of Districts these District events take the leader away from what he or she ought to be doing that being the delivery of the the program to the Scouts in the unit.

I am all for improving Council facilities, but at the end of the day our Scouts only get to spend a week or so at the camps. The real program is what is offered in the troop setting week in and week out.

I don't know what is happening in other Councils but having served as the Council Training Chairman, it amazes me that we will spend big bucks on a camp that is used for so few weeks a year and spend very little on Training. In our Council if it wasn't for the good will of those who present the training's it would be a really poor show.

Again I don't know what is happening in other parts of the country, but the Commissioner Service area is no where near living up to what is expected. Much as I hate to be a pessimist, I don't hold out much hope for any improvement. I live in hope that sometime soon the entire idea is reviewed and something is done to vastly improve it.

When I look at the Vision and mission statements of this organization. I am filled with hope. I sure as heck would love to see a heck of a lot more kids in our organization. When I look at the Methods of Scouting I know that they can and do work. However they work to different degrees with different kids. Some are not happy unless they are out and about at a camp. Others are keen to work on leadership skills, while others see the goal of Eagle Scout as the thing.

All of this can change as the Scout changes. In our house OJ has been a Life Scout for what seems to me as a long time. Every now and then we have a burst of enthusiasm, in that area. But of late he is more enthusiastic about the OA. He enjoys leadership and working with and for other Scouts. The hum drum camp-outs that are just living in a tent no longer captures his imagination. If he never makes Eagle this will in no way make him any less of a Scout.

He really got into the NLS training's and spent many hours working on the presentations that he made as a staff member of JLTC.

I don't have anything against advancement. Still show me a troop with twenty members of which half are Eagle Scouts and show me a troop with fifty active Scouts who are having fun and participating in all the adventures that Scouting can offer. I would think that the troop with fifty is doing more to help us turn the vision and mission of the BSA into a reality.

I wonder what the outcome would be if every troop put as much effort into membership as some seem to spend on advancement?

Eamonn.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Eammon,

 

I am not trying to convince you about program and membership being interrelated, although my argument is presented as such. I see that you say you don't understand when you are actually disagreeing, which is perfectly acceptable. In your earlier post, you said Districts were missing 70% when 80% is the figure if we are reaching 20% (*since I know you can subtract, you may be referring to an undisclosed figure). You then make the intimation that you would take numbers over Eagles. My argument is in response to that.

 

Once again, I do not see where troops are acquiring Eagles in vast numbers. Your statement infers that is their present task. If that is their task, then the numbers of Eagles do not reflect their efforts. (*depending on the council or if you have a high number of LDS units)

 

You reverse field by agreeing that you believe that program is the answer to our woes. Then you go on to list those many benefits of good program.

 

I agree that too many District activities are bad. I want QUALITY events not quantity. I am pushing for people to use their resources and not take away from unit leadership to staff events. If a District activity is run using the skills of leadership, then I propose that there would be a turn in the meaning of what a District event means to both Scouts and Scouters.

 

Increasing budget on Council camps means that units then can use them for quality activities more times in the year. It will no longer be used once a year. If is built with various activities in mind, then it will be a camp worth visiting.

 

Increasing Quality in the Commissioner Corps is always a concern. I could list a whole set of problems but the incentives for a Commissioner to effectively assist a unit in achieving quality program are low or do not exist. I am saying that if a Council decided that quality program was the priority, then everyone would be asked and rewarded for achieving such a lofty goal.

 

As far as OJ reaching Eagle (I am sure it is his Father's wish), I think that I know an answer.

 

Your last statement is about Troops with 50 Scouts having adventures versus Troops that work on reaching Eagle and yet you still ascribe it to the efforts of membership. I am the one that is confused now.

 

FB

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Eamonn]

The line that confused me was "Increase program quality by 90%.."

I have never seen program looked at as a percentage or number.

Program is where the rubber hits the road.

When you ask Lads who have left Scouting "Why?" In a lot of cases they will tell you that they found it boring. When you dig a little deeper they will say that the weekly meetings were the soft spot.

Of course most of them have no idea what the program could be. Most of them try Scouting in one troop and when it doesn't work out they are gone.

I am all for the goal of having our new Scouts reach First Class in about a year. Not as some sign of pass or fail. But as a sign that we have equipped these Lads with the knowledge for the adventure that lies ahead. Of course there has to be an adventure ahead.

Do we at times need to give a Lad a friendly kick in the pants and remind him that Eagle Scout is a very special place to get too? Sure we do. Isn't that something that can be addressed at Scoutmaster Conferences,aren't these and BOR's a good place to have a Lad look at where he has been and set goals as to where he is going. I see troops that have Scouts with all sorts of the really hard Merit Badges, Wilderness survival, Emergency Preparedness and these Lads are still tenderfoot!! To me this shows a troop where the program is weak and the only advancement that is being accomplished is what is done at that week at Summer Camp.

I have a hard time seeing how any Council can be proud of only reaching 20 or 30 % of the available youth. The percentage of Eagle Scouts while interesting does little for me.

Eamonn

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Eamonn,

 

I apologize for not properly operationalizing program quality for a five year period. (*I know that I do not have each specific element to fully make it so but bear with me.)

 

This is a top down, bottom up approach. The Council must first agree that most of their efforts, time and money will be expended on program.

 

The Council must agree to increase the quality and number of activities that any unit can engage in year round at the Council Camp. This includes available staffing of activities and well maintained equipment.

 

The Council and District Training committees must agree that they will increase the number of trained volunteers by a magic number. They must stress program in all of their training. Additional film clips of Council Camp and unit activities should be added.

 

The Commissioner Service must buy into increasing service to units to insure that units know about good program and how to properly access it. *As I said before there must be an incentive element to increase Commissioner effectiveness in delivering the message to the units. Some type of special awards might be used.

 

The Districts must buy into the approach by understanding that they are to do their jobs using the Skills of Leadership and not depend on units to staff and run their events. This would mean fewer events but better run events and ones that would support the units.

 

The units must have an incentive to increase their efforts to have good program. One of the incentives would be to demonstrate how good program can assist Scouts in reaching, First Class and then Eagle; this is already one goal that you said most units want, so the Council will be able to assist them.

 

If good Program actually works and I strongly believe it does, then the outcome of a five year effort to turn a Council around in the area of program would be to increase membership by 90%. This would not bring the number to 100% of the total available youth but closer to 35% to 55% instead of the present figure of 20%.

 

This number is still low but there are other activities in the community that have demonstrated program effectiveness and have been imbedded long enough that it will take a longer period to convince them otherwise. It should also be recognized that doubling the size of the population will bring about other problems.

 

FB

 

[Bob White]

"The Council must first agree that most of their efforts, time and money will be expended on program.'

 

What specifically does that mean? Can you give a list of what you see constitutes program spending?

 

[Eamonn]

Fuzzy Bear,

I am not sold on your idea. To my way of thinking program is where the end user - The Scout receives it. In his home troop. Sure the District and the Council are there to support the Troops but Scouts join a Troop and choose a Troop that is going to meet their needs.

Eamonn

[Fuzzy Bear]

Eamonn,

 

What do you purpose to bring in the other 70-80%? Obviously what is happening is not working. You imply that you have an answer or a strong criticism, probably the latter. I am interested in hearing it.

 

 

BW

 

Your question implies that you are ready to provide the administrative funding and support needs to run the Council that provides program to 20% of the available youth. I am not defending a number but I am attempting to say that when quality program is the main thrust, then all other costs must be reduced so actions and expenditures are directed toward the one goal.

 

I see the football, soccer, basketball, baseball programs run mostly by volunteers with very little administrative costs. I think it could be done in Scouting as cheap with even more interesting year round programs.

 

But then, it is just a thought.

 

FB