Participate in troop or patrol activities

[klsdr]

Just wanting others' interpretations of what is considered a troop or patrol activity. Our new scout patrol does not go camping more than two or three times while they are 11 years old (church policy) and they do some of there hiking during the time of their patrol meetings. Some argue that the hike will not count, as it is the patrol meeting, but I wonder if a hike would really be considered a patrol "meeting." It seems that a hike is a patrol activity and not letting a boy count it as a patrol activity because it was on Wednesday evening instead of Saturday is a bit picky. I also consider the courts of honor to be patrol activities. I don't want to justify a patrol that is not as active as I wish it were, but I want to give them credit where credit is due, as well. I welcome your input.

Ken

[LauraT7]

I assume that "the church" you mention is your charter organization - and I wonder why they are limiting your boys camping??? it just doesn't make sense -

 

Be that as it may - you probably can't do anything about that NOW - but if it were me, I'd work on changing it. It always annoyed me that BSA limited cub camping to family camping, when as a Girl Scout, I had been camping since 2nd or 3rd grade! Boys are certainly as capable of the skills as girls are! I think part of the problem troops have with boys on troop outings is that they weren't brought up doing it all along!

 

On the issue of "counting" a hike as an activity or an event - I would think that a meeting that encompasses planning or learning specific skills, or otherwise preparing for events is a meeting.

 

If they actively DO something - like hike, or cook, or something else necessary to complete a purpose or advancement, then it is an activity.

 

If they meet for 15 minutes to plan something else, and then hike for 5 miles with a compass - it is both a meeting AND an activity.

 

11 yr old boys are notoriously bored by "meetings" they really don't need to spend alot of time doing boring "meeting stuff" - so if they meet in patrols & their patrol chooses to use their time for activities, then more power to them!

 

I think the ones who are argueing the point are being too nitpicky and need to find something more constructive to occupy theitr time!

 

 

[Compass]

Someone's being pretty persnickety in defining activities and meetings, aren't they?

 

It's like LauraT7 says, look at the different things that meetings and activities are. If the troop has a Patrol Leader's Council on a campout or camporee, does that make the whole event a 'meeting'? I don't think so.

 

Purpose of a meeting is to plan, discuss, reach consensus about action to be taken. An activity is the result or action from that meeting.

 

There is a certain amount of gray area here. Troop meetings might include things such as games, demos, etc. that, outside the troop meeting night, might be considered an 'activity,' and an 'activity' (such as a campout or hike) might include a meeting.

 

What if the boys decided on a Wednesday that the following Wednesday (before the usual meeting) that they were going to do a service project for Second Class? Are they not going to be able to count it as such because it happens on the same day as their usual meeting night? Absurd.

 

However, you don't define what kind of hike they are doing. Are they, for example, simply going around the block or wandering aimlessly around the neighborhood? This would hardly be an activity. An activity should have an attempted purpose, objective, or goal.

 

With a restrictive policy like you describe, these boys are going to need more than the usual encouragement from others to persevere.

 

[evmori]

klsdr,

Welcome!

 

A patrol activity is a patrol activity regardless of the day it held.

 

Why does your church limit the amount of camping? This seems a little weird to me.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ASM7]

Ken

Is confirmation classes the reason for the limit on camping? I know sometimes it's a problem with the age goup your referring to. There may be a way to coordinate with the confirmation class teacher and teach these boys while on the campout if you have church members in your troop. Make it part of the campout Sunday service.

Doug

[rlculver415]

While I agree with all the above, Courts of Honor should NOT be considered a patrol activity - even if each patrol does give a presentation, skit, or whatever. Courts of Honor involve the entire troop, Scouters, families of Scouts, the charter organization &/or its representative, and perhaps other invited guests.

[klsdr]

The requirement refers to patrol OR troop activities other than meetings, so why wouldn't a Court of honor be considered an activity, expecially an Eagle court?

As far as the camping limitation, it is a little more complicated than you all might understand. It has to do with two facts, I believe. You should understand that BSA plays the role of the activity arm of many churches, but within a church, there may be auxilaries or programs (priesthood, for example) that do not directly coincide with the BSA ages of involvement. So, the new scout patrol is administered by one auxillary and the rest of the scouts (varsity, ventureers and scouts) are administered under a different auxillary. The two group are considered by the church to not be related enough to do all the same activities. In other words, they have drawn a line that 11 year old boys (new scout patrol) should not be involved in doing all the activities as the 16 year olds, which I tend to agree with. However they are flexible enough to help them meet the requirements and program of BSA, which includes camping two or three times through First Class. So there policy is to allow two or three campouts during this age with their father or mother and without the other patrols. I know this does not give them the opportunity to associate and learn with the older scouts, but there are disadvantages to having them with older boys too soon as well, which I agree with. So I have no problem with the idea that they limit there camping during this first year. There are other activities they can do that do not require the boys to spend the night away from home, which I as a father of 6 and a mental health therapist working with children and families advocate. I do not believe it is important or appropriate to have boys or girls spending nights away from home and family much before the age of 12. I am willing to explain this more, but we are getting way off topic and this is probably more information than you wanted anyway.

thanks for your input.

(This message has been edited by klsdr)

[SR540Beaver]

klsdr,

 

I'm at a loss in how to respond to your comments. First, I'd be interested in knowing what denomination your church is. I'm Southern Baptist and spent some time as a Minister of Youth. When our kids entered junior high, they became part of the youth group which ran from 7th grade thru 12th grade. While Sunday School classes were age specific and even gender specific, all youth activities were open to each youth. Of course, adult supervision was always on hand. And some of the activities were by specific Sunday School classes and divisions. I'm not sure why you think kids should not spend the night away from home before the age of 12? You will be raising a lot of "momma's boys". My son spent many nights at his grandparents from the time he was 3 or 4 and loved it. When he was playing baseball between the ages of 6 and 8, the boys took turns spending the night at each others houses on the weekends during tournaments. Now, I'll admit that I was picky about whose house he got to spend the night at, but that is being a good parent. Many times, it had more to do with the kid than his parents when I decided who he could stay with. I think that as long as you have mature, responsible older scouts and adult leadership along, the younger boys need to go on the campouts to begin learning. That is what most of the boys joined scouts to do. To restrict them this way just extends their Cub experience. Why not just restrict the age they can join then?

 

This isn't meant to criticize, I'm just baffled by the reasoning.

[rlculver415]

In your original post, you were speaking of patrol activities - not troop activities. COH are not patrol activities. By definition, those involve the patrol only, doing their own activity by themselves. A COH is indeed a troop activity, but with many characteristics of a meeting. In my mind, it IS a troop meeting albeit a special one. Therefore, it does not qualify as a patrol activity.

 

Eagle Courts of Honor are even more special, and have no real aspects of a troop meeting. Neither are they patrol activities.

[KoreaScouter]

klsdr:

 

When a chartered organization recharters a troop with BSA, both the CO and the Council sign a "charter" that outlines what both promise to do. What's pertinent here is that the CO promises to adhere to BSA policies. From what you describe (segregating the NSP, limiting their outdoor program, insisting parents attend outings, etc.), your CO may be in violation of their end of the charter agreement.

 

I'll readily concede that 11 year old boys can't participate in everything 16 year old boys do. Your setup, though, begs the question "what are the 16-year olds doing?" If it's BSA activities, and not Venturing activities, there's no reason why the NSP can't do them, too.

 

Whether something's a meeting, an event, or an activity, or whatever, is a matter of common sense, and reading the literature.

 

If you're unclear on patrol meetings and BSA's intent, get a copy of the Patrol Leader's Handbook (the new one, with the rattlesnake patrol flag in the cover graphics). Chapter 4, starting on page 59. "Patrol meetings may be held at any time and any place...patrols can hold meetings during troop campouts and other outings...typical patrol meetings can vary in length from five to 20 minutes or more."

 

While you're at it, I recommend all your green bars get either the PL or SPL handbook issued to them when they're elected/appointed to their positions; a wealth of information in both.

 

Good luck.

 

KS

[klsdr]

While I appreciate all your concern and information about how our chartering organization runs its scouting program, that is not the point of my topic, so I would rather not continue to comment on the why's that have brought our organization to this point. Suffice it to know that the BSA knows the organizaiton well and is aware of how it is organized to utilize scouting to benefit the young men in th eorganization. As far as restricting them is concerned, I think this is putting words in my mouth, as what I tried to describe was a slower transition to working with the older boys, not "restricting" them. They spend time with them, just not all the time. As I said, I am a social worker and I have very credible reasons for the guidelines I follow when it comes to children and overnighting before they are 12 WITHOUT THE FAMILY. I am sorry if you think this is treating them as momma's boys and hope that you will look into understanding why this can have a better developmental effect on children then letting them go earlier, but it will need to be on your time, not mine. I am sorry I do not have time to help you understand better why our organization does things the say it does.

thanks again for all the input on what is considered a troop or patrol activity.