They Cant or Wont Organize an Outing (what to do...)

[Beavah]

Sorry for the negativism but my youth leadership is just not stepping up. They can't or won't organize an outing. Meetings are play dates.

 

Yah, Mafeking made this comment on a recent thread, eh? It seemed to reflect what some others were sayin' in several current discussions.

 

So from anybody who has managed to overcome this sorta thing, do we have advice to share?

 

I'd suggest specifics rather than general stuff like "use da patrol method". In my experience, every unit thinks they're tryin' to use da patrol method, but it's small, specific things in their style or approach that either work or don't work. Let's share some of those.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Some things i did back in the day as ASPL.

 

1) Have a rough schedule i.e. 7-7:10 time is opening and patrol inspection 7:10-7:50 instruction 7:50-8:10 gametime 8:10 to 8:20 patrol corners, 8:20-8:30 Announcements, SM minute, closing, and the SM's " Good Nite Scouts" I state a rough schedule as sometimes the instruction would take longer fo a number of reasons, misbehavior lots of info to cover, etc. The only inviolable times would be when game time ended. No matter when game time started it ended on time, whether you got th ealloted 20 minutes, or no minutes.

 

2) Have a specific meeting with the PLC to plan the year. It was a day long affair for us b/cv we had to workd with a bunch of school calanders. Also soem fun was involved as we had food and oen tiem a pool.

 

3) SPL assign specific activities on the campouts to those with the skills.

 

 

More later.

[scoutldr]

The PLC Annual Planning Session is the key. The session is not optional. Not planning is not an option. The SPL runs the session, but the SM should set the ground rules, such as:

 

1. Minimum of 3 troop meetings per month, with monthly themes.

2. Minimum of 1 outdoor activity per month (campout, hike, Camporee, etc)

3. Summer Camp

4. High Adventure trip (if age appropriate)

5. Fundraising (enough to fund the plan)

6. Service

7. Holidays and school dates to avoid (Mothers Day, etc)

 

Like Eagle92 said, start at 0800 and stay till it's done. Then the SPL presents the "plan" to the Troop Committee for approval and support.

 

Then publish the calendar and execute!

 

(Provide a copy of the calendar to your CO, UC, feeder Packs and parents.)(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[evmori]

What do you mean they can't? Why can't they? Sounds like poor leadership and poor mentoring to me.

[shortridge]

Can't is different from won't, and each requires its own solution.

 

Won't suggests that they're satisfied with what they do at present and have a lassez-faire attitude toward the program.

 

Can't suggests that they don't have the skills or knowledge to do so. In my mind, that's a much easier problem to solve, through training and teaching.

[Lisabob]

We're a troop where adults do most of the organization and boys nominally run the event on the ground, but boy-led is sometimes a fig leaf for us. Changing this is really hard. I watched numerous painful sessions of our troop's venture patrol meetings this year, in which a group of boys who are coming into troop leadership but are a little on the young side (13-14), tried to organize new and exciting outings.

 

What I saw was that they had NO IDEA how to start. First and foremost, I saw that the boys are at heart creatures of habit. They were initially unable to think outside the box because they had no idea what sorts of opportunities existed "out there" for them, and they had no idea how to find that out, either. For all that they are the internet generation, they appeared to be both narrow-minded (knowing only what they'd already done) and overwhelmed (not even knowing how to begin a targeted search for cool new ideas). Telling them to "get on the web and look around!" was not helpful. Look for WHAT??

 

Second, when the pump was primed a little bit by adults (here are 5 options, what do you think of them?), the boys immediately wanted to do them. ALL of them. But they had no clue how to move from "wow, let's do THAT!" to "and this requires organizational steps a, b, c..." They needed education in how and where to get phone numbers, a list of questions to ask, dates by which things needed to be done, and a sequence of steps to take. You cannot expect them to develop these skills on their own. Telling them to "figure it out yourselves" is not mentoring or teaching leadership - it is dropping them over the side of the cliff and then acting surprised when they fall.

 

Third, teaching execution of a plan is difficult. Things would be assigned (either by the Venture PL or by an adult) to specific boys, but there would be little or no follow-up or accountability. The boys did not understand that simply telling someone "ok you do XYZ and then tell us what you found out" is not sufficient to ensure it actually happens. We, as adults, know this only because we've dealt with the annoyance of having to back-check other adults to make sure they did what they said they would. SO we build this in to our plans. The boys did not. Events fell through as a result, and boys became frustrated. "We never actually get to DO anything" is a comment I heard from more than one boy. You have to teach them how to follow up. You also have to push hard on the "trustworthy" part. If a boy says he'll do something, make sure he's fully aware of what he's committing to, and that he understands the consequences of failing to do it. Also that he knows where to get help if needed.

 

And fourth, because of this level of frustration (which as an adult, was PAINFUL to watch), the inevitable urge was for adults to step in and take over. Make it happen. That's exactly what took place with the Venture Patrol and it did result in a fairly robust outing schedule where activities went off as planned. But it also resulted in a lot of disillusionment and resentment, because the boys who were struggling to learn to lead felt trampled upon. Some of the adults involved felt that the boys were ungrateful and contrary when the boys attempted to re-gain some control. Some boys (including the PL) backed out of the patrol in large part because of this ugly dynamic.

 

The short of it (well ok, LONG - sorry) is that you have to actively teach the boys to tackle each step, even the very small steps we adults take for granted. You have to understand many boys are conservative creatures who fear failure and who will sit on their hands rather than risk themselves if they feel too uncertain. You have to resist the temptation to make it YOUR outing, even though at some points in time adults might consider stepping in to help the boys expand their reach and ensure that something actually does happen. Just as you can't always pick up the pieces for them, you also can't always let them fall on their faces. They need some successes to build from. If you have a young troop with little leadership experience, you have to be better prepared to step in from time to time, but also to step back at the very first sign that you can hand over more bits and pieces to the boys.

 

By the way, we live a few hours from a popular amusement park. For years, the boys have tried to schedule a trip to the park as a monthly "camp out." Every year, adults have said "that's not a camp out activity we will support" so it doesn't happen. Last year, adults signaled that they'd support it as a side trip, maybe an end-of-the-year fun thing, as long as the boys completely took over the planning and funding for it. The boys still a) don't quite believe it and b) haven't begun to plan it even though they all want to go, because they do not know how to begin. I hope that the new SPL will grab it by the horns - we'll see.

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

I saw "event planning" taught at the OA LLDC...excellent. Set the event date and work backwards...and you quickly realize that the planning needs to start MONTHS in advance.

 

I found this on the internet after about 2 minutes of searching...could be customized for any event. The only thing I would add is what we call "Action Officer"...who is responsible for each item.

 

http://www.buckskin.org/Resources/Outdoor/campout_event_planning.htm

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

LISA, LISA, LISA! Wow!.. That is SPOT ON! Your analysis is exactly what I've been experiencing.

 

Been trying to change the dynamic, printed out some of Kudu's stuff, handed it out at the PLC, oooh, looks cool Mr. CA_Scouter... so I ask next week if they want implement some of these things....

 

 

 

Hey guys, let's plan a big backpack trip next year ( we went to Yellowstone last year ), any ideas?

 

 

 

 

My personal un-pc view is that our public school system discourages independance, out of box thinking and initiative, so that's reflected in their scouting activities.

 

Still working on it though... Never give up, Never surrender!

 

 

--end rant--

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>My personal un-pc view is that our public school system discourages independance, out of box thinking and initiative, so that's reflected in their scouting activities.

[Mafaking]

 

As Lisa said the scout's wants exceed their planning capabilities.

 

Year long calendar plan, done that. Had great input from the scouts. Our troop prides its self on providing the campouts the the scouts want. I could go on but for sake of this debate except that the scouts know where they want to go and know how they want to spend their recreational time.

 

Its the next step that is the problem. A twelve month calendar plan with reservations required at 12 different sites, canoes that have to be rented. Fees deposit confirmation notices arranged and filed. It is just beyond what I have been able to get the scouts to do.

 

Our Scout selected weekend campouts are too complex for the average 12 -13 year old PL to arrange.

 

I have trouble getting adults to do research and make plans. Ask an adult to grab a campout date. A newbie adult will let a week or two pass then come back and say that weekend was taken. "Ok did you grab the next one?" "No, I wanted to check with you first" A seasoned adult will grab the best date for the troop. Heck, a really seasoned adult will grab both and then decline the one the troop doesn't want latter.

 

If the campouts were to the same camping spot just outside of town every month then the scouts could handle it. Lem had it easy. Our weekend campout range is in the hundreds of miles.

 

The day planning for the outing is something different; the scout can handle that.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

[EagleBeaver]

We have a TLT session twice a year, right after elections. Right before that, I (as SM) spend a couple hours with the SPL and ASPL training them on their duties.

Right after the TLT, the SPL and patrol leaders come up with 6 events for a year out. At that time, each patrol leader chooses which event his patrol will be responsible for planning. With 6 patrols, each patrol leader plans an event during his term. He has assistance from an ASM and can use http://boyscouttrail.com/library/campoutplan.asp to cover most planning.

At each monthly PLC meeting, each patrol leader has something like http://boyscouttrail.com/docs/plannertroopmeeting.pdf that the SPL and gang work through to plan upcoming troop meetings.

 

[Gunny2862]

Lisa's post is great and very insightful but I want to add one element I haven't seen.

 

If the boys have been told that they are boy led, and anyone who is still there has every TRIED to lead anything and were quashed - that's all it takes to create the current situation.

 

It is imperative that they receive positive reaction and support in ANY step they make in the right direction. And simple guidance(redirection) but not necessarily correction in any missteps they make in the early stages of creating the culture you are looking for.

 

My guys are FINALLY beginning to trust that I will ACTUALLY support anything we can carry out, that they plan. We have an actual Patrol outing going out next month - that so far has had no adult involvement in the planning, some oversight, but no involvement in the planning. Yea!

[Beavah]

Ask an adult to grab a campout date. A newbie adult will let a week or two pass then come back and say that weekend was taken. "Ok did you grab the next one?" "No, I wanted to check with you first"

 

Yah, dat's sooo true, eh?

 

And it illustrates an important point. Da kids are no different than us adults. It's not that they're young, it's that they're inexperienced as Lisabob describes.

 

Only way to make 'em experienced is to give 'em that shot, and build experience a bit at a time, eh?

 

So if yeh want your Venture Patrol Leader to be able to plan a week-long high adventure trip on his own at age 16, yeh have to work backwards from there, eh? What's he need at age 15, and 14? (Eagledad's notion of havin' adult goals).

 

And if a PL is just startin' out, yeh have to provide all the basic support that Lisabob describes. How to make a phone call. Sit with the lad, have him think through and write out all his questions, consider what da different options might be, practice it out loud to you, then make da call together on a speaker phone. That's your startin' point. If he's really nervous, you make the call and have him listen so he gets to see an example of a good one (when has a boy ever really "seen" how to make a phone call to a stranger to get information and make a reservation?

 

Between your startin' point of how to make a phone call as a 12-year-old and you're ending point of havin' a 16-year-old be able to plan and lead a high adventure trip, figure out the learning steps, and think about how to make your TLT program provide that coachin', and your program to provide those opportunities. Younger PLs might just handle day trips and local reservations, eh? Older PLs might get canoe weekends with multiple reservations, shuttles to arrange, tour permits to fill out and budgets to deal with. Wherever possible, have lads in charge of an event they've been on in the past as a participant, so they have some experience and a sense for the timing and issues. It's worth rememberin' that Eagledad's unit used mixed-age patrols, so his PLs were older and had that kind of experience.

 

Write it down so yeh don't forget and start assigning a 12-year-old to plan a high adventure trip he's never seen, and think he's lazy for not doin' it. Look at your plan and your goals often, so yeh don't start handling a lot of stuff for your 15 year olds and never reach your goal.

 

As an aside, that's a great way sometimes to have conversations with parents about youth leadership, eh? They want their kid to be fully independent and self motivated at age 18 goin' off to college. So what does that mean he needs to be doin' at 16? At 14? At 12? Havin' the goal in mind forces yeh to think about those things, and loosen da apron strings at the appropriate times.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Can't or Won't organize outings are two different things. Both, however, are failures of the adults.

 

If they won't do it and would perfer to stay home and play on the computer, the adults need to step in and provide more direction. Youth leadership is one of eight methods. I'm not going to sit back have let the failure of the troop leaders crash the entire troop program. Yadda, yadda, I know we're supposed to let the boys learn from their failures, but this isn't a failure: they're doing what they wanted, playing video all weekend. And how much learning is going on among the rank-and-file patrol members if the outing is cancelled do to inaction by the PLC?

 

The adult leaders need to be enforcing the program. The Scouts get to decide where we are going camping, but the adults decide THAT we are going camping. It is a standing order in our troop that we go camping the first weekend of every month. November is the Webelos campout, July is summer camp and August is Troop JLT. Within that frame work, GO! The Scouts figure out the rest.

 

If the boys CAN'T organize an outing, that is an adult failure too. My new mantra is that Scouts fail when the don't use the training and advice they've been given by he adults. Adults fail when they don't give the Scouts those tools.

 

Beav asked for specifics. Here's some of the stuff we do.

 

Forms - lots of forms. We have a worksheet for just about everything. The troop meeting plan, PLC meeting plan, campout planner and campfire planner are literally out of the book. We also have a menu planning form with one column for the menu, another column exploding that into a grocery list, and a check-list across the bottom of the cooking gear needed. Patrol menu plans must be completed and checked by an ASM before campouts. We also have stuff like blank duty rosters and tent mate signup sheets the patrols can use if they want.

 

We've recently added a patrol outing worksheet. Our troop never had a tradition of patrols operating on their own, only within the troop structure. Last year we started declaring a troop meeting or even a whole weekend campout to be by patrols. The first time we did it was a disaster. The worksheet is pretty basic who, what, where stuff, but also includes some BSA-specific stuff like asking if the outing requires special BSA certification or training, i.e. Safe Swim or Safety Afloat.

 

The key to this is that we train on this at TJLT. At JLT the guys work through planning a patrol activity using the sheet. It's not busy work, they will execute the plan later in the year. The menu planner isn't busy work either. It's set up to help the scouts meet the first class cooking requirements. We go through the sheets when we sign-off on the requirements.

 

Yes, the boys' first reaction to all this is "MORE HOMEWORK?" Anything involving paper (well, I can think of one exception) is automatically related to school. It takes training and more than a couple tries before the scouts realize that using the forms makes planning easier. It's cool when you see a younger Scout scribbling a menu on a scrap of paper towel and the patrol leader says, "No, no, you need to go get the menu sheet." EUREKA!

 

We do other very specific training at JLT. For communications, we have the boys take the patrol activity plan they just made and pretend to call their patrol members with the info. They literally make the phone call (to an adult in another room) and everyone listens in on the speaker phone. The adult answering the phone alternately pretends to be the Scout, his mother, his 8-year-old sister or the answering machine. The Scouts have to adapt their message to each situation.

 

Follow-thru is a nut I haven't cracked. I'm coming to the conclusion that the part of the brain that processes that doesn't develop until sometime after age 18. I try to tell the boys, especially the SPL, he needs to make a habit of every Sunday night calling all the guys responsible for program elements at the next meeting. Most are adamant that if they made an assignment at the PLC, that should be enough and shouldn't have to follow through. Maybe we're doing too good a job of teaching delegation.

[boomerscout]

newbies can't organize an entire outing first time right out of the chute. we have them organize part of the outing. when they get that right, we give them an additional part.

drivers - for the drive home - ask their carful how everything went. this is a much more relaxed setting, but with a captive audience