Reducing the number of PORs

[Eagle732 27]

We have a small troop of about 17 Scouts. At the last PLC meeting the group decided to reduce the number of SPL appointed positions. We will now only have the troop positions of SPL, ASPL, QM and Scribe. They decided to cut Librarian, Historian and Chaplains Aide assigning those jobs to the remaining officers as needed. I think this is a good idea considering that they usually have to beg someone to do those jobs and the Scout that ends up with the job doesnt do it. Im hoping that the reduced opportunities for PORs will encourage some of the older Scouts to take the PL job. Most of the time it seems like the new boy gets the PL job. I did ask that they might want to consider reintroducing some of the jobs if and when membership increases or someone really wants to do a particular job. Has anyone done this before? Was the effect that older boys needing a POR took the PL jobs?

[Twocubdad 665]

Yes.

 

When I became SM we had 12 guys running around with an instructor patch on their sleeve. Unfortunately the troop never used the instructors for anything. It was purely a position in name only. Occasionally we had a guys who would claim Instructor to meet a requirement. One of the first things I did as SM was to eliminate the position all together. The one or two guys who showed a true interest in working with younger guys were made Troop Guides and assigned to the new Scout patrol. That's worked well for us.

 

Currently I have an ASM with a Wood Badge ticket item to restart the Instructor Corps. We've laid out a series of requirements and job descriptions for the postion to ensure any new Instructors are qualified and perform in the position.

 

I think your PL issue is a separate one. If you are trying to get the older guys to step up and take more substantial positions, I'm not sure that's the direction I would go. I think the better approach would be to talk with the guys in question and lay out your expectations for them.

 

We've had times when the older guys (and I'm talking 14 and 15, not 17) would stick the younger guys with PL. Clearly, they know how much work it is and prefer to let someone else haul the freight. The flip side of that is that the younger guys are usually pumped up and want the status of being PL whether they're ready for the job or not.

 

At one point I pulled them all together and pointed out that they are now the older guys in the troop and I needed them to step up and lead. They did, for one term, which worked out very well for the troop.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, da list of positions in da books is a list of possible positions, eh? Each troop can and should decide what positions it's goin' to have. That's going to depend on size and a bunch of other factors. The rule is simple, though. Yeh only have positions where there's a real, responsible, growth-inducing job to be done.

 

I sometimes tell folks that it's only a real position of responsibility if kids in the troop really feel the impact if the job isn't being done. That's what responsibility means, eh? If the person in a POR fails to be responsible for a month, it should hurt da program. If the lad can go AWOL for a month and no one notices, or it's naught but a minor inconvenience, then yeh should eliminate the position.

 

Most important job of the lot is Patrol Leader. If your older scouts are fobbing that off on younger boys yeh have a troop culture problem yeh need to fix. Pronto! But that sounds like a different thread...

 

Beavah

 

[Mike F 10]

Eagle732,

 

Absolutely - tailor your PORs for your troop. If you don't have enough for a scout to learn and grow filling a position, don't fill the position. It doesn't help him mature and it just causes confusion. As you say, if the troop grows or you find a real need for a Historian, things can change. No problem.

 

By the letter of the SM Handbook, you can also set requirements or prerequisites for positions. Exactly where depends on your troop demographics, but you could probably set 2nd or 1st Class as a requirement to be PL. In another thread, I discuss the importance of not meddling in PL elections. Since this is part of the SM HB, I dont consider it obtrusive or meddling at all. Its an optional part of the program that works for many.

 

Its a nit, but I would also eliminate the term needing/needs a POR from your language. Theres no such thing. He (or his parents) might want him to get a POR so he can meet an advancement requirement, but its not a need (like food, shelter, etc.). If its a need, then its up to everyone to help fulfill the need. If its a want, its up to the scout to step up to the plate to get elected or selected. If they wont display their desire to get a POR by being dependable, positive, etc., then let them sit it out. When they figure out nobody is going to give them anything, they will eventually get hungry and get in the game.

 

I also strongly recommend a written contract at the start of each POR signed by scout, his immediate leader (SPL, ASPL) and SM. Train him in the job, coach him toward success, give him assistance along the way, but ultimately hold him responsible. If he doesnt fulfill the contract, he doesnt get credit for rank advancement. Make sure parents have a copy to avoid problems. Keep scout (and parents) informed if scout is not on track toward success. This up-front work will save TONS of heartache and bitterness later. And ultimately helps the scout grow much better, which is why were here.

 

[Eamonn 61]

Think I'm missing something??

Sure of course you don't have to fill every position that is in the book.

But having just got here by doing two backspins.

It seems to me that no one is talking about the Troop growing?

While there might only be 17 Scouts this year, next year that number could well be 30 or 50.

Eamonn.

[Eagledad 2781]

>>While there might only be 17 Scouts this year, next year that number could well be 30 or 50.

[Eagle732 27]

The troop's goal is growth to a comfortable level for our meeting facility, about 35 Scouts. We are expecting 8 to 10 new Scouts this February. That's why I asked that the PLC might consider reintroducing some of the jobs if and when membership increases or someone really wants to do a particular job.

[Knot Head 10]

We don't always elect/appoint all positions. Didn't have a bugler for a long time until a new scout came along who plays the trumpet. He got ahold of a bugle somewhere and now we have a bugler. He's pretty good too.

 

We have a good library of old MB books so we have a librarian that needs to be there & do a good job. Historian does the COH slideshow, press release for each campout & also manages the photo database so he has a pretty big job. The local weekly suburban paper will run a one paragraph story about a campout if you write the story & furnish a digital photo so the historian has a pretty good job.

 

We only elect 2 instructors & they stay busy. Required to attend each canpout unless they got a really good excuse. Miss 3 of the 6 during their term, they get no credit for POR.

 

One special spot the SM appoints under the "other" category is troop song/yell leader. This is the guy who gets everyone pumped up, makes new songs, leads old ones and basically creates a good mood. The current Qm also holds this spot and the kid is a hoot.(This message has been edited by knot head)

[Stosh 3452]

Our rule-of-thumb is: If the job needs to be done, put a functioning boy in there.

 

A lot of our boys wear two hats because their functions (POR's) are often times "part-time" in the troop. A small troop may have a TG that functions as an Instructor as well, SPL that does Chaplain Aide functions, Librarian doing Historian jobs at the same time, etc.

 

When the BOR comes around, the boy claims credit for any and all functions he has performed during this tenure. There's nothing worse than saying at the BOR, "I once put some MB books back on the shelf this past year, do I get credit for Librarian?" vs. "...After which I put together a PowerPoint Preso for the last COH, I took tons of pictures at summer camp, and our patrol didn't have anyone that could do the Scribe work, so I pitched in on that too."

 

I don't care what patch he may have on his shirt at any given time, if he does the work, he gets the credit for any and all POR's listed in the book. If the troop is small he may have to do double duty to get enough to brag about, but it all counts. "That's not my job." is not an excuse for sitting around waiting for 6 months wasting your time and everyone else's, too.

 

Stosh

[Mafaking 10]

 

Instead of taking away POR's I would like to re-write and add POR's

 

The scribe has too much work with attendance, meeting notes, advancement tracking even money and dues. I would break out this POR into several.

 

A scout treasurer would be first on my list, collect dues and fees and run a balance sheet.

An advancement coordinator would be second, track an report on the over-all advancements in the troop.

a troop publisher (agendas, outing plans, newsletters, pamphlets...

A recruiter, for new scouts, attending pack meetings..

 

PL would be more focused on planning outings and leave some of the other details to the instructor.

 

SPL unchanged

ASPL, hmmmm?

Scribe, modified

Historian, focus on capturing event Photos and stories

QM, unchanged maybe even an Assistance QM

PL, Primarily unchanged

TG, Ok if you run NSP, we don't

Instructor, unchanged

Den chief, unchanged

Web Master, unchanged

OA, unchanged

Bugler, Ok

 

ADD---------------------------

Treasurer

Advancement coordinator

Recruiter

Publisher

Games / Campfire coordinator

 

Librarian, is a weak position in our troop, most scouts would rather read online. (BSA should consider a troop service fee for on line books. I know the books are a source of revenue for BSA but my middle schooler and high schooler have courses with only on-line books.) Kids read from the screen a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

We also have a small troop, and we have limited the number of PORs. We have 2 patrols, and five scouts not assigned to patrols. Four rarely attend meetings and never outings, so I didn't want to burdon the patrol leaders with their dead weight. The 5th is the SPL and we have no ASPL. We have a Bugler (because he has a bugle and can play--he is a vital leader in the troop), an Instructor (who does a reasonable job), and a QM (who is actively reorganizing, inventorying and maintaining our troop equipment). All these are members of patrols. One of our PLs is the Chaplain's Aide, and does his duties every week and at every outing. I would like an active scribe, but that position is filled by a semi active scout. We have no NSP, so there is not a Troop Guide.

 

We are looking at a 75% increase in our membership by February, and will add one patrol. I do not yet think we will return to having an ASPL, as it remains unnecessary; let me explain my thinking. The SPL's job is to manage/coordinate the patrol leaders; if we only have 3 patrols, that's not too much. The ASPL should oversee the other positions, CA, QM, and Scribe. Adding these to a lighly burdoned SPL is not a real issue. If all are doing their job well, then there is little for the SPL to actually do.

 

Conversely, if our troop were considerably larger, I might add positions where they may not be expected. With more patrols using more of our equipment, I might add a second QM. If we also had multiple instructors, Troop Guides in addition to the other PORs, I would seriously consider multiple ASPLs, dividing the reponsibility like vice presidents in a Venturing Crew, with one being Administration (overseeing Scribe, CA, Historian, Librarian, Webmaster, etc) and the other being Program (over QMs and Instructors). Troop Guides and Bugler, in my opinion, should answer to the SPL.

 

But we do not have a troop that large yet, and likely won't for many years, but I can dream (and plan), can't I?

[Stosh 3452]

Buffalo:

 

Just a couple of observations:

 

5 boys with no patrol? So you have no one that attempts to get these boys more involved? I'd put a couple in each patrol so those patrol members can "recruit" them back into their patrol activities.

 

If you have 2 older patrols, and a potential NSP early next year, I'd put all the troop officers in one patrol that will support both other patrols. NSP should have an older scout that doubles as PL and TG. That would mean the troop officer patrol could have a PL that operates as a SPL as needed. He's going to be handy to assist the other two PL's in their duties along with "taking care" of the boys who really shouldn't require a full-time PL and can kind of take care of themselves, or at least should be able to take care of themselves somewhat.

 

Until the troop gets big enough for these boys needing to commit full time to a job, double up two part time jobs. So the boy wears a PL patch on his shirt doesn't mean he can't function as a TG at the same time for the benefit of his boys.

 

Stosh

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

Stosh,

Keen observations. The 4 who are not in patrols are not "active." Three are 17 and approaching a birthday (in one to five months) and have openly declared that they will not be participating in campouts and that their schedule will prevent them from attending most meetings. All are closing on Eagle, but it is quickly appearing that one will not get his project off the ground (less than 60 days left), another had his project a week ago, but is floundering on MBs, while the third has his project in 2 weeks and is nearly done with his last 2 MBs. The fourth is the younger brother of the first and is heavily involved in baseball; he firmly believes that having "Shortstop" on his resume is his future. He attended only one meeting this last year and will likely drop this month (we have been talking to he and his mother). This leaves only the SPL, who, we keep apart from the patrols.

 

We have several scouts who double-up. One PL is also a Den Chief, and the other is the Chaplain's Aide. After some discussion, the PLC has decided (and after all the online debate I fostered on this), that we will look for scouts from the current patrols to "break off" and form a new patrol, and then Webelos will divide into the respective 3 groups. This will give about 7-8 per patrol, depending upon our exact recruiting. It was also loosely agreed to get form the new patrols after our mid-January campout, giving the new patrol a time to gel with the it's new members and campout once before the webelos join. PLC is still considering many of the other options, but overall, they have a basic plan of what they want to do. I am behind them on this.

 

We will still have to see how our crossign Webelos (from 2 or 3 packs) will be divided. The PL from one patrol, as I said, is a (Webelos) DC. It is likely that his den will cross and absorb into his patrol, which is largely made up of a core group of Webelos who crossed from the same pack last year. They know him and already see him as leading peer, so that will be a good transition for them. The rest remain to be determined, but this will work itself out in time.

[Frank17 10]

We have never had to reduce offered positions, we have a 50+ scout troop. In fact, we had an informal position of webmaster for the troop's website before it was approved by National, as an offshoot of the scribe. We generally have 4 ASPLs, 4 PL / APLs (4 patrols), 2 Troop Guides (for the 2 new scout patrols) and 2 QMs. Everybody else is solos, except den chiefs and instructors which we tailor to fit the need. We do not always fill some of the positions (such as bugler), but generally get a full complement each time we hold elections.

[John-in-KC 311]

Except L--->E, a SM can develop and implement any position needed for the healthy running of a Troop. If 2 QMs gets the job done, fine. If 2 Scribes, fine. If a webmaster is needed (before the new HB), fine.

 

I'd be more comfortable with the PLC saying "Following positions will be unfilled at this time."

 

That said, A Scout is Reverent. Please tell me who is covering down on the Chaplain's Aide position, and how he's doing it???...