BrentAllen 10 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I've seen some different interpretations about Patrol Method vs. so-called Troop Method here on the board. This is what Green Bar Bill had to say about it back in 1938. I haven't found too many things I disagree with him about. SM Handbook, 3rd Edition, pg. 220 The mistake has been made by many Scout Leaders of confusing Patrol Method with Patrol Work, making the two synonymous. This notion, naturally, is entirely wrong. The Patrol Method does not imply that the Patrols be let loose and permitted to run each in its own direction independent of the others. On the contrary, unless it promotes the coordination and cooperation of the Patrols--for the good of the common denominator, the Troop--the Patrol Method fails. A Patrol is not a clique sufficient unto itself, but a gang living at one and the same time its own life and the life of a larger group, just as family lives in its own life and in the life of the community. As the Handbook for Patrol Leaders definitely makes clear (Chapter III) no Patrol exists for and by itself alone. It has another part to play aside from its important individual life. Every Patrol has its obligation toward and its share in THE LARGER LIFE OF THE TROOP. A Patrol could never have the truest kind of Patrol spirit unless is also had, in a very active way, genuine Troop spirit, pride in the Troop as a whole, eagerness to help the Troop make a good showing in whatever it undertakes, devotion to Troop traditions, Troop ideals, and especially to the Troop's leaders. Patrol Cooperation and Competition Each Patrol should want to be the best possible Patrol in the Troop, not alone for its own sake but also because the best possible Patrols make the best possible Troop. It may be said that the relations between the Patrols should be characterized by approximately EQUAL PROPORTIONS OF COOPERATION AND COMPETITION. It is important for the unity and strength of the Troop that the Patrols cooperate willingly, readily and effectively. It is helpful to the development of Patrol spirit that there be a sustained friendly competition between the Patrols to reach high standards. pg. 163 The Patrols are the working units in Scouting, while the Troop organization provides supervision and coordination, and establishes loyalty and opportunities for service. In other words, a Troop is NOT divided into Patrols. A TROOP IS THE SUM TOTAL OF ITS PATROLS. (emphasis NOT added) Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 And all high school students should be treated as 7th graders? Society draws many lines in the sand and boys that are mature enough are given more opportunities than those who can't handle it. Surely one must agree that the model society holds out to the world indicates that not all senior citizens must listen to rap music because the majority of people listen to rap music. There are things the older boys need the opportunity to express that may not fall into what's best for the troop definition de jour. Senior scouts that have to go to the same summer camp they have for 5 times earlier just because their numbers are unable to out-vote the troop will simply drop out of the program. There are many SM's out there that feel this way and yet scratch their heads in wonderment when their older boys drop out. They make excuses such as women, cars and school, but as life progresses these other issues DO change and meet the needs of the boys as they grow and mature. When scouting doesn't it gets left in the dust. Ideally the older scouts "owe it to the troop" to take care of the new scouts, but there comes a time when they need to branch out and take on a more mature view of the sitatuion, when that happens Scouting has to be prepared to meet that challenge or the boys will seek other avenues that will offer it. Too often the new boys hold back the older boys when in fact the older boys need to be challenging the new boys and raising their level of maturity rather than vise versa. This is why we have venture patrols. The program is there, it just has to be used. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
mmhardy 10 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Patrol competition is an ideal way to bring guys together. But so is fostering comradeship by just getting together for an afternoon of videos/games during a cold Saturday, seeing a movie, hanging out. Being a patrol does not have to involve 100% Scouty activities. Link to post Share on other sites
BrentAllen 10 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 Yes, and Venture Patrols still work to the betterment of the Troop. It sounds to me like your idea of servant leadership stops at the Patrol. If you believe in traditional BSA Scouting, it's hard to get more traditional than William Hilcourt. Older boys leave for a variety of reasons. I believe you stated all your older boys had left. Was it because they were being treated as 7th graders? Or they were going back to the same Summer Camp for the 5th year? Link to post Share on other sites
BrentAllen 10 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 mmhardy, Exactly! Group opinion among the Scouts in the Patrol is one of the most potent factors in determining conduct. A Scoutmaster at best sees his Scouts but a few hours each week. The Scouts, on the other hand, are meeting each other all through the week in school and at play, and are influencing each other for good or evil. Is is for this reason that the Scout Ideals, developed in the Patrol, may be even as important as the personal influence of the Scoutmaster in shaping the character habits of the Scouts. This again shows how necessary it is that the Scoutmaster himself trains his boy leaders toward this ideal. Green Bar Bill Link to post Share on other sites
scoutldr 726 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Back in the day, we couldn't wait to become "senior scouts" so we could be on Camp Staff. For "high adventure", we had district-organized 50 milers (canoe/foot) and Philmont. If the senior scouts to keep going back to Camp Runamuck year after year, no wonder they're dropping out. Link to post Share on other sites
BrentAllen 10 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 scoutldr, I'm not disagreeing with your point, but I also keep hearing that older boys are leaving because they haven't been given ownership of the Troop, the opportunity to run the show. The dilema becomes how can the older boys run the Troop at Summer Camp if they aren't there? If they are off doing their own high adventure thing, who provides the leadership in the Troop? I understand the need for more challenging activities for the older boys. I think balancing that need with the operation of the Troop is one of the greatest challenges for a SM. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 "Yes, and Venture Patrols still work to the betterment of the Troop. It sounds to me like your idea of servant leadership stops at the Patrol." This conclusion is a result of cherry picking my comments. Whereas if the hightest "authority" in a troop is the SPL and his staff is no different than the highest "authority" in a troop is the patrols. The separation of those who have and don't have is the same. At least with the patrols, the younger boys are not run rough shod or bullied by the older boys, they still get to have a say so in the area of scouting important to them. This keeps the older boys out of the affairs of the leadership being developed in the younger boys. "If you believe in traditional BSA Scouting, it's hard to get more traditional than William Hilcourt." BP tends to be a bit more traditional considering his views in the situation. WH is merely an interpretation of BP's ideals. "Older boys leave for a variety of reasons. I believe you stated all your older boys had left. Was it because they were being treated as 7th graders? Or they were going back to the same Summer Camp for the 5th year?" SOME of the older boys left because they didn't want a boy-led troop. They wanted the adults to do the work and they would ride along and be entertained. They were the leadership of a patrol set up just for them and when they couldn't bully anyone into doing it for them, they left. Those that stayed, remained in the patrols for the first year and now are using their expertise to assist the younger patrols get organized and up and running. This is why they dropped out of the patrols they were in, turned the reins over to younger scouts and took on the responsibility of helping ALL the patrols, not just the one they were in. While some may not believe in the servant leadership style within the patrol method, I have found that the boys respond very positively to the concept. Are the patrols independant of each other - YES, do the older boys get involved with the younger boys - YES, when requested. Same holds true for the adults. When it is the decision of the patrols to have older boy and/or adult involvement in a situation they are facing, yes, they can ask and receive assistance to improve their program. This is why the Troop Officer Corps/Patrol Leader Council are virtual patrols. They function solely for the purpose of helping other patrols, but when not needed or are not assisting, they gather up and function as a "patrol" for the purposes of having structure at outings, camp together, cook together, and perform as a patrol. The SPL is free to float among the patrols and assist his "virtual patrol" of PL's to make sure they have assistance as may present itself. Otherwise, he bunks with the ASPL who is running the TOC. The only really hands-on anyone really does on a long term basis as an exception to this rule is when the TG is a guest of the NSP and will bunk up and mess with the NSP on their first outing when they are trying to get their feet on the ground without any experience. He's there to assist the PL run the show in the patrol smoothly. So to answer the question, they left because they were not being treated as 7th graders, they were treated as young adults which they didn't like. They preferred the 7th grader "take care of me" mentality. I find that although in organizational structure, the patrols are all independent within the troop, the interaction between the young boys and odler boys is more on a common interest on both parts. Sorry to disappoint, but it works for these boys and they like the structure the way they have set it up. I like it as SM because I am free to float around doing SM conferences and chatting with the various patrols individually. I'm not tied down to running the show and making sure everyone's having a good time, the boys are doing that. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 >>Senior scouts that have to go to the same summer camp they have for 5 times earlier just because their numbers are unable to out-vote the troop will simply drop out of the program.. Link to post Share on other sites
BrentAllen 10 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 Stosh, On one hand, you say older boys will leave if you treat them like 7th graders, but then you say your older boys left because they wanted to be treated like 7th graders. Interesting. Maybe there are other issues that leave SMs scratching their heads, wondering why their boys dropped out. Barry, I'm a big believer in the "adventure" idea. It is the glue in Scouting. While it can be difficult to come up with a really exciting adventure every month, I think if a Troop can put together a really special trip once every 8 - 10 months, those trips provide the "glue" to hold Scouts in for nearly a year. I think when the PLC gets ready for our next annual planning conference, I will suggest each PL ask each patrol member to think about what would be their best trip ever to go on, and suggest that. I don't think we've ever phrased the question in that manner. I look forward to seeing what they come up with. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 >>I think when the PLC gets ready for our next annual planning conference, I will suggest each PL ask each patrol member to think about what would be their best trip ever to go on, and suggest that. I don't think we've ever phrased the question in that manner. I look forward to seeing what they come up with. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 It would seem that not all boys are of equal maturity as others. The three boys that dropped out were 14-15 year olds that were in the program only for the fun, one was a Scout and the other Tenderfoot. The third was First Class. It would seem that after three years they really weren't interested in the program/advancement and were in it just to hang out. When we took on 25 new Webelos boys, they were expected to take on more of a leadership role which they were not interested in. The other three were Life scouts (2) and First Class (1) and are still in the troop working to make it something worthwhile. All of them took PL positions to work with the new scouts. These other 3 boys were recruited from the general public and were not previous Cubs. They were there just to hang out with their friends. I know why these boys left so I'm not scratching my head at all. The three older boys identified this well before the other 3 boys even left. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 >>It would seem that after three years they really weren't interested in the program/advancement and were in it just to hang out. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Unfortunately we didn't have the option to just hang out. 6 boys in the troop all of a sudden had 25 new Webelos boys that showed up! 3 of the boys took over as PL's and the other three took some but eventually abandoned them to their own recources. Needless to say the new boys weren't all that upset that they left. This is the patrol that has been making phone calls for a month now recruiting heavily in the Webelos boys planning on considering us for the upcoming year. 39 of them potentially could join and triple our numbers once again. I'm thinking we may be seeing a growth from 5 boys to well over 40 in a 2 year time period. Needless to say 6 boys have completed TLT and have completed their advancement to First Class well within the first year. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Eagledad 2777 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Yes, we went from 12 first year scouts to 40 total in one year as well. I agree that it is very challenging. Barry Link to post Share on other sites
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