Eamonn Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 For my sins I'm one of dem-dare 4 Beader types. I could I suppose go into one of my long chats about how this came to be. But I'll save that. I know about 20 or so other people who have four beads. Some from the new course, some from Cub Scouter courses and some from the old Boy Scout course. While I'll admit I have asked them if they were ever asked for their opinion about changes in uniform? I know for a fact that no one ever asked me. Yes, when the poll was on the Scout Stuff Web Page, I did offer my thoughts, but they never asked how many beads I had. Some time back in this forum there was a thread about what we thought the uniform should be? I'd be happy for it to be some sort of polo shirt with whatever pants a Troop settles on. I'm sure that is not going to happen. As we often see in this forum, uniform and uniforming is a hot topic. I have to admit to not being an expert on materials and cloth, and with that in mind I'm happy to leave that sort of thing to the people who know about that sort of thing. I'm guessing that sales has a lot to do with what Scout Stuff sells and doesn't sell? From visiting Scout gatherings it would seem to me that the Scout pants were not selling, so the new pants are a way to improve sales? I don't know why they changed as I say I was never asked. As regards the 21st Century Wood Badge course. I think maybe in trying to keep everyone happy the course has become a little confused?? I'd be happy if it wasn't called Wood Badge and I wouldn't be upset to see the "Critters" say good bye. My thinking is that this new course is not the old course, it was never really intended to be. It is a Leadership Course. For adult leaders across the organization. A council president who has never served and most lightly will never serve as a Boy Scout Leader, does need to know how to lead, but has little use for the Patrol Method. Some Cub Scouters are happy to remain in that program, so again why bother with Patrols. I'm 100% behind having all of our leaders who work with our youth members become better at what they do. I'm not a great fan of the Training's offered to our Cub Scouter's and I'd like to see the Boy Scout Training's bumped up with more time spend on the methods of Boy Scouting and practical Scout-craft. Being as I'm now a Sea Scouter, unless I'm wearing a Boy Scout uniform, which I still do as a member of the area committee, I rarely wear my beads. Having the fourth bead has not opened any doors for me, I still can't walk on water, I still put my socks on one at a time. But gold loops?? Now that's different!! (Joke) Ea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 E, I was sorely disappointed after getting my 3rd bead and finding out I wasn't in an elite insider clique who had control of the council and/or national organization. I was going to go for a 4th bead as I was sure it would get me on the A list. Sadly, your post has shown me that the 4th bead will do no more for me than the 3rd did. Drat! I'll just continue to serve my unit I guess. I had such high hopes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted February 1, 2007 Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 Wow, rather cranky aren't we? Um, Fox News much, SR540Beaver? We had our annual Wood Badge reunion this past Saturday. You'd be surprised how many 2, 3 and 4 bead "enforcers" had on their Switchbacks just like me. My point exactly! For all of their zeal in sacrificing the Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method to the 1972 malignant cancer upon Scouting we call "Leadership Development," Wood Badge "enforcers" are followers not leaders. The Outdoor "Switchbacks" were finally introduced because enough of us Scouters turned our back on the stupid idea of forcing Scouts to wear the BSA indoor FACTORY Uniform pants. Indoor Uniforms are NOT the Uniform Method. The true Uniform Method is an Outdoor Method. The Switchbacks have some serious flaws, but if we support this product then the BSA might be pressured to introduce a similar "Class A" version of the breathable nylon BSA Action Shirt: "Beat the heat while you're in action with this lightweight, breathable shirt. Shirt keeps cool with wicking capabilities and a bi-swing back with mesh inserts. Features two locker loops, chest pockets with hook-and-loop closures, and a buttoned-down collar." See: http://tinyurl.com/ytkkbv To understand what BSA Scouting really is and what BSA Wood Badge should teach about BSA Scouting, read William Hillcourt's 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters available at: http://tinyurl.com/ysxtpt To find the 3rd Edition, look for the mention of Volume 1 or Volume 2 in the title or the description. You can find two volume sets for as little as $25. Copies from the late 1930s are printed on a better grade of paper and are easier to read, BUT copies of Volume 1 of the later 1940s printings include a detailed version of William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (PLT) which is of great importance. Unfortunately PLT was destroyed in 1972 to make way for Leadership Development's "JLT. This 3rd Edition is over 1,100 pages long (four times the information contained in the current Scoutmaster's Handbook), and EVERY page crackles with the excitement of the BSA's discovery of the Patrol Method. If you love Scouting the eleven hundred pages will fly by as you read them. I challenge you to find a single page without at least one great idea that can not be used directly or adapted to improve your Troop's program. The subtitle is A Manual of Leadership. This is real BSA Scouting leadership, not Ken Blanchard corporate Wood Badge. Read the BSA's 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters and discover real BSA Scouting for the very first time. Kudu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo1 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Trevorum,I did not intend to offend anyone. I meant that some people are more "tolerant" or accepting of gays and I did not mean to imply any nambla type behavior. I suppose for those of us who have a problem getting ome scout to wear the pants, switchbacks make sense. You get 2-for-1. They loog OK, but not great and kids wear them. I would rather see BSA find quality pants on the market, contract with a manufacturer for the number of pockets, color, etc, attach a BSA patch/logo and move on. I also think it's time to change the shirt. The Elvis collars are hideous. The cut and style are bad and the colored loops and eppaulets gotta go. The 1970's era uniform was great. Let's go to something that people wear, like columbia or REI or something. Something that will take some use and abuse. I'm sorry, I only have 2 beads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
local1400 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Oh no Gonzo, don't tell me you've gone over to change the uniform camp where Brianbuf is the SM! PM sent last week-ain't heard back from ya! Don't need no beads to lead!(This message has been edited by local1400) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo1 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Local, Please re-send your PM, I did ot get it. Don't get me wrong, I wear my uniform and I do so proudly. I was once in the U.S. navy and had to wear "cracker jacks", now that's an odd uniform. Brianbuf was advocating changing the shirt to a polo shirt only like they have at Burger King. I'd like to either see a return to the collared 70's style shirt, pants or upgrade to something more contemporary, I wear the uniform, I'm just not a big fan of this version. Switchback pants are a good start. I haven't "jumped ship" on the uniform thing. I think the pants are cut poorly and dont fit well. I "cargo pockets" barely hold a dollar bill, forget a hot spark kit or a band-aid. The shirts are also horrible fitting. Should things gotta go. Collars are too big, What happended to the color in the office badges and rank patches? A brown background for Tenderfoot was nice, gren for second class, etc. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I'm a little unsure how a thread about a Troops program morphed into a discussion about Wood Badge beads and Scout uniforms? As I look at the Troops in our District, I see the Troops that have a terrible program. They meet weekly for some sort of chat, talk about things they might like to do, but never get around to doing it. Is this the fault of the BSA? I see Troops that don't use the Patrol Method. Sure they hand out patches and the SPL does at times start the meeting with a very half hearted recital of the Scout Oath and Law. There is no PLC, no youth leader training, the Scout have no real responsibility and are never given the opportunity to lead. Is this the fault of the BSA? I see a Troop that does attend the Council Summer Camp and does make full use of the opportunities the camp offers, but they also have a week long adventurous trip, last year it was canoeing in Canada. The Troop doesn't seem to "Produce" many Eagle Scouts. The Scouts they have seem to be very active and from what I see have a good time. Is this the fault of the BSA? I see a Troop where just about every Scout who sticks with it until he is 15 years old is going to make Eagle Scout. Is this the fault of the BSA? I see Troops that are growing, attracting new members and retaining the older Scouts and I see Troops that somehow each year manage to find the five Scouts needed to recharter, but when rechartering comes around next year the five names will all be different. Is this the fault of the BSA? I see adults who are skilled and gifted with outdoor and Scout-Craft skills who for some reason don't connect with the Scouts. I see leaders who have a hard time with a square knot who the Scouts idolize. Is this the fault of the BSA? Some Council Camping Committees offer high adventure camps, which sell very well, other Council Camping Committees are happy to keep playing it safe and offer the summer camp with 101 merit badges. Is this the fault of the BSA? Some adults will read and hang on to every word that Bill Hillcourt every wrote, while other may have no idea who he was. Is this the fault of the BSA? Ea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SR540Beaver Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 kudu, I get that you love scouting but hate the current BSA program. I'm sure everyone here gets that. Not everyone here was a Boy Scout or Scouter in the late 60's. The program they know and love is the program as it exists today. I appreciate that you are the lone voice shouting from the wilderness. Please appreciate that many of us see value in older elements of the program, but feel an obligation to deliver the program as it is designed today. I don't mean to offend you, be rude or discourage you, but you are not going to change the BSA back to what you remember and love. That was then and this is now. I honestly understand your conviction and can relate. I've been a Baptist all my life. Growing up, we usually sang 3 or 4 stanzas of at least 3 hymns every worship service in the sanctuary. We actually picked up a hymnal to read the words from. Pages with music notation on them. The hymns were more than songs, they were scripture in song form. They told a story or offered hope. The services were very reverant. People Amen'ed when they agreed with something the Pastor said. Most churches had a Pastor, Minister of Music and perhaps a Youth Minister. In this day and age, I can't find a Baptist church like I or my parents or grandparents before me grew up in. There are no more hymnals to sing from and seldom a hymn to sing. The words of a repetitive "praise chorus" is projected onto 3 or 4 mega screens around the "worship center". A rock style band with guitars and drums beats out a deafening tune while the "praise leader" leads the singing. He most likely is dressed casually instead of in a suit like the old Minister of Music was. Instead of Amen's, everyone claps like they were at a concert. People bring their cups of Starbuck's coffee into the sanctuary....excuse me, the worship center to drink while they read the scripture passage from the big screens. No need to actually carry a Bible anymore. I think you get the picture. Church ain't what it used to be.....but it continues to draw in new generations that need it. Right or wrong, the trappings have changed with the times while the core message has remained. Me personally, I'd love to find a church like the one I grew up in. To me, THAT is church, not this rock concert, circus atmosphere. But try as I might, I can't find one like I grew up in. I can either worship in the churches as they are today or start my own and hope that I can draw a crowd. What I don't think will be productive is to stand in the hallways outside the worship center and tell everyone walking thru the door that what is going on inside is wrong and not church. They will beg to differ with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
local1400 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 SR540 Beav, come on up to NH. I can take you to my church where the Hym books are as old as the church building. It's a great service too. The truth in the Gospel is spoken. The cushions in the pews are rock hard, the Pastor is looking straight at you all the time (he looks at EVERYONE all through the service- right?). We have no band, no A.V. system. How church was in the day I suppose. KJV Bibles too, none of the "make you feel better about church" versions. Now that might get me some flack, but it IS the original version, isn't it? See Eamonn, we can get way off course VERY easily!!! Oh Beav, I almost forgot- only get about 15-20 at service because people don't want to hear the TRUTH. Local. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Me, I miss the high mass. Latin. Incense. Now that was church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Then again, the mid 60's were when I was an altar boy, first one in my class to learn all the latin to serve at mass, so my reward was to tbe the first in my class to serve mass. At 6:30am, just what I wanted, walk to the church, serve mass and then walk home just to walk back, and I will have you know it was 10 miles, uphill both directions and snowing. Then again, as it was the mid 60's and James Bond was all the rage, I could pretend I was the secret agent from Vatican City, Et Cum Spiri, 2 2 0... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 These days, the kids probably think it's a piece of software - Spiri 2.20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 So, back in the say, this kindly old priest took on a recently released convict, the ex-con tried hard, but as an establablished member of the underworld, old habits were hard to break. Finally, one Sunday while looking at the collection basket and noticing it was full of cash, rings, watches and like the kindly old priest spoke up " For the last time, its Dominus vobiscum, not Dominic go frisk 'em" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwd-scouter Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 In my early years, listening to our Priest conjured up images of playing a fun game while eating a snack Dominos Nabisco! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudu Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 SR540Beaver writes: I get that you love scouting but hate the current BSA program. I'm sure everyone here gets that....I don't mean to offend you, be rude or discourage you, but you are not going to change the BSA back to what you remember and love. That was then and this is now. SR540Beaver, I get that you love religion but hate the current Baptist church. I'm sure everyone here gets that.... Your descriptions of the old vs. the new services have the ring of truth to them, and as such are of value in and of themselves. However, the conclusions that you draw do not follow. I'd love to find a church like the one I grew up in. To me, THAT is church, not this rock concert, circus atmosphere. But try as I might, I can't find one like I grew up in. As local1400 points out, churches like you want to find are alive and well in NH at least. So as a Baptist it is up to you to decide what your priorities are. You have the freedom to find an existing church like local's; or, as you say, start one yourself; or just to follow the crowd. This is called the freedom of religion. As a Baptist you have a right to pursue your quest, but as a Scouter you do not have that right. The activist courts have ruled that Congress has established religion with a monopoly on Scouting. Imagine how hard it would be for you if the BSA state church used the lawyers it now hires to search the Internet for groups that use the term "scouts," if they also searched for the term "church" so that they could sue local1400's little congregation out of existence. The BSA would then be free to do what it does best: To use the 3 or 4 mega screens around your own "worship center" to sing a repetitive "praise chorus" to Ken Blanchard and to train everyone to be a "One Minute Baptist." I think you get the picture. Church ain't what it used to be.....but it continues to draw in new generations that need it. Right or wrong, the trappings have changed with the times while the core message has remained. If you want to further compare Scouting with religion, I'd be happy to debate this with you in the Issues & Politics forum. I would submit that the BSA going to court to keep a six-year-old boy out of Scouting because of his father's religious views is the exact opposite of the "core message" of Jesus: a primary concern for the weak, defenseless, and powerless members of society: "Do not forbid the little children, for they are of the Kingdom of Heaven." Furthermore, it is precisely the "trappings that have changed with the times" (in this case the Christian fundamentalist pursuit of political power) which are directly responsible for the complete corruption of the core message of Jesus. The Patrol Method is not a mere "trapping" of Scouting, it is the ONLY method of Scouting. What I don't think will be productive is to stand in the hallways outside the worship center and tell everyone walking thru the door that what is going on inside is wrong and not church. You may think that this is a "worship center" to sing a repetitive "praise chorus" to the BSA. But Scouter.Com is a forum designed to discuss Scouting and it is dedicated to William Hillcourt. So what could be more appropriate than to discuss here the current BSA program and William Hillcourt's Patrol Method? I appreciate that you are the lone voice shouting from the wilderness. Please appreciate that many of us see value in older elements of the program, but feel an obligation to deliver the program as it is designed today. I'm sure that the same thing was true the first time that the BSA used its monopoly on Scouting to kill the Patrol System, Beaver. I'll bet that back then the "Enforcers" of BSA Scouting also "felt an obligation to deliver the program as it is designed today:" BSA Trainer: "From what you are saying, it sounds like you are you allowing boys of 56.75 inches to remain in a 56.5 inch Patrol." "Scout Master" "Well, yes, one boy did grow a quarter of an inch, but it seemed a shame to force him to leave the Beaver Patrol just because he grew a little faster than his friends." BSA Trainer: "The BSA Handbook for Scout Masters clearly states that the Patrol Grouping Standard is 56.5 inches. Nowhere does it allow you to base Patrol membership on friendship. How do you expect to run a successful Troop if you don't follow the BSA program?" "Scout Master" "I left the decision up to his Patrol Leader." BSA Trainer: "You did WHAT???????? You let a Patrol Leader DECIDE something?????" "Scout Master" "Well, yes." BSA Trainer: "The more we learn about your Troop's program the worse it gets! The Handbook for Scout Masters states very clearly that 'care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols.' What you are doing is very very DANGEROUS, you are placing your entire unit at risk because 'There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head.' We are talking about SAFETY here!" "Scout Master" "Well, I can't be there to make every decision myself" BSA Trainer: "Here again the Handbook for Scout Masters is VERY clear. The Scout Master, not the Patrol Leader, is the leader in Scouting, and if the Scout Master must delegate some small matter then he must be careful to keep the Patrol Leaders OUT of the decision-making process: 'if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan'." "Scout Master" "OK, but according to Baden-Powell, Scouting is based on something called the Patrol System." BSA Trainer: "BADEN-POWELL??????????" "Scout Master" "Yes, Baden...." BSA Trainer: "Welcome to the Boy Scouts of AMERICA in 1913! The last time that I checked, Baden-Powell was not even an AMERICAN. And get with the times! When Baden-Powell wrote that stuff about a 'Patrol System' the BSA did not even EXIST! His out-dated methods simply do not apply to the modern American Boys of 1913. That was then and this is now! The Handbook for Scout Masters says that the 56.5 inch Patrol 'Grouping Standard will doubtless become the real basis of all groupings in the future.' Get with the program. It is precise. It is scientific. It is American. It is the FUTURE OF SCOUTING!" "Scout Master" "Well, why is B-P's Patrol System missing from the BSA?" BSA Trainer: "Look, before the Handbook for Scout Masters was printed, it was reviewed by 10,000 Scouters. These are ALL of the experts in the field of Scouting, including ALL of the most successful Troops in the entire nation. Not a single one of these 10,000 Scouters cared that the Patrol System was missing. Do you really think that you know more about Scouting than all of these 10,000 Scouters combined?" "Scout Master" "It is not MY idea, it is Baden-Powell's idea!" BSA Trainer: "When you became a Scout Master you promised to follow the program of the BSA. Are you going to keep your promise, or are you going to be a bad role model? A Scout is loyal and obedient!" So, SR540Beaver, nobody wants to be the lone voice shouting from the wilderness. But fast-forward ten years and we find James West introducing "a radical change in the management of troops" called the "Patrol Method." The BSA may never allow Historians to examine how the Patrol Method finally came to be established in the BSA, but it is reasonable to assume that someone got to West and explained that the Patrol System is the whole point of Scouting. Can anyone in this day and age get to the millionaire CEO who runs the BSA and convince him that teaching a Patrol Leader how to be a Patrol Leader is more important than teaching his Scoutmaster how to be a CEO? Maybe not. But as BSA summer camps with their central dining halls continue to be sold off to pay for more "important" things, Troops may once more have a practical need for Traditional Patrol Leaders rather than little One Minute Managers. And if the state church of Scouting is ever deregulated to allow Patrol-based Scouting associations to compete with the Blanchard Scouts of America, maybe some guy working at the BSA will finally read one of Hillcourt's old Scoutmaster Handbooks just to learn how this "radical change in the management of troops" called the "Patrol Method" works. Kudu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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