The Proper Role of Competition in Scouting

[Stosh 3452]

No matter how one sugar-coats the process, competition means someone's going to win and everyone else is going to lose. One can win/lose as an individual and deal with it by yourself, or as a team where one can share in the win/lose.

 

The perception of win/lose is often arbitrary at best. We teach our boys skills, and test them for advancement purposes. Then we test them at camporee competitions, but the only real test is out in the real world where win/lose is, well, for a lack of a better word, real.

 

Eagle scouts that never again venture into the outdoors unless he has a son in which he will subject him to the Eagle requirements sufficient to pass on the tradition. But to take your kids just to go camping? Never happen. Where's the win here? On the college application and job resume only.

 

Even our school system has become so "politically correct", that Johnny can't ever see Mary's test results because someone's going to be emotionally traumatized somewhere along the way.

 

Participation ribbons? Yep, there's a solution to the emotional trauma. Like everyone doesn't know how those work in a competitive world.

 

Personal best? Yep, you did best you could, even better than you ever have, but any of your buddies can blow you away in a head-to-head for-real competition.

 

Competition isn't necessary in scouts other than in games that everyone finds fun to play. Competing against nature, or the whitewater, or putting your skills together to take on the challenge of 15 miles a day backpacking, may have a place in scouting, but after 30 years of scouting I have never participated as a youth or adult in a pinewood derby. My son who was in scouting never felt it was necessary either. We went camping instead and hung out at the campfire.

 

Just ask yourself, if only one boy showed up for a pinewood derby, would he have fun? vs. if one boy got lost in the woods, would he know what to do? An Eagle scout friend of mine joined the Air Force and as part of his training, his squad was dropped off in the middle of desert in the middle of the night with a map, a compass and notice that breakfast was at 0600 hours. He took the map and compass and figured out where they were, set a course and went back to base. His buddies all followed him. He was back in time to catch a shower and get cleaned up before breakfast. Other groups didn't come in until later that day and some even that evening. So what did this boy win? Hot shower, hot breakfast and the whole day off from duty because he wasn't out running around lost in the desert. He didn't need a medal for that.

 

A participation ribbon does not instill confidence in a boy, neither does besting out novices. Just because someone is the same age as you, does not mean they are an equal.

 

I guess I would rather build confidence in the program instead of competition, because competition is arbitrary, confidence isn't.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hello Stosh,

 

 

I think it's important to keep the term age appropriate in mind. The difference between what to expect from Cub Scouts and Boys Scouts is huge, and I've been addressing competition in Cub Scouts.

 

Our Tiger Cub Den recently made First Aid kits. as part of that, we used an ink pen to draw a "wound" of varying sizes in varying places on boys and they had to choose a suitable size bandage and apply it to treat the wound.

 

Not very realistic. But it was fun for boys to stick things on each other and they probably learned something into the bargain. Tiger Cubs is MOSTLY about having fun and setting the stage for learning Scout skills in the future.

 

By the time boys are second class in Boy Scouts, First Aid skills should be taught in a much more serious environment.

 

The idea that we need to sharply draw winners and losers in Cub Scouts is bogus in my opinion. I prefer to use competition like a spice to motivate boys and make activities fun for them to participate in and learn. Sharply dividing boys into winners and losers usually doesn't accomplish that --- just the reverse in most cases.

 

Perhaps what you don't realize is that it doesn't take much to motivate young boys. A simple sticker will elicit their best efforts.

 

The defining characteristic of Tiger Cubs is that they can be intensdely interested in almost anything---- for about five minutes.

 

Sharper competition in Boys Scouts is perfectly appropriate, perhaps even in Webelos. I just don't see it as necessary or even appropriate among Cub Scouts.

[desertrat77 1144]

Stosh, great commentary....

 

A few thoughts from a career AF guy. While your friend in survival training didn't get a medal for being first back to the base, he got something that may have been worth as much--positive attention from the training cadre ("Back by zero six? Not bad.") and his peers. Whether by word of mouth, training report comments, or a course honor grad program, great performances find their way back to supervisors and commanders. Which translates to better annual performance reports, considerations for special duty assignments, etc.

 

Will being the first back to base automatically guarantee all this? No. But the spirit of excellence, and yes, competition, runs through many folks in uniform, and a solid accumulation of great performances can help a servicemember get ahead.

 

On the enlisted side, you compete for promotion against your peers in your career field. In professional military education, some students compete for distinguished grad awards. Many get degrees off duty to make their records more competitive for promotion. While there may be no outright winner in a sense, for those who want positions of higher responsibility, more challenging duty, retraining into another speciality, or just for the personal satisfaction of getting that next stripe (more money), the competitive spirit will motivate folks to study after duty hours or work longer while everyone else is relaxing. Because there is a finite number of promotions, or special duties, available each year.

[desertrat77 1144]

SP, if I'm tracking correctly, I agree that it can be tough to see the cubs leave a competition with long faces, sad, upset, etc., because they didn't win.

 

A couple times, many years ago, I was one of those cubs who didn't win and was not happy about it.

 

Frankly, losing as a cub was one of the most fortunate things to ever happen to me. Once I thought about it, I realized that I didn't like losing. So I'd prepare and do my best to get ready, and then give it everything I had. Rough but good experience for the future, when I crossed over as scout then entered adulthood.

 

Could I have got the same lesson as an older scout? Perhaps. Personally, I'm glad I got my lesson at age nine, rather than at 12 years. That early "sting" of defeat helped motivate me to start living up to my personal potential, which is important whether we win or not.

 

[Twocubdad 665]

I think Stosh is coming close to hitting the right balance. Competitions are fine, but in the context of Scouting they are difficult to apply in a meaningful way. Those things we try to teach are HIGHLY subjective and are very difficult to render into a score. For example, our district camporee scores patrols equally on leadership, teamwork, scout spirit and completion of task. Each of these are rendered into a numeric score. The winning patrols usually score in the 350 range with the top four or five patrols within about 10 points of each other. You're telling me they can judge spirit, leadership and teamwork within a 2% margin of accuracy?

 

Back in the day, the camporees I attended as a Scout awarded patrols blue, red, white and yellow ribbons indicating excellent, proficient, good and "thanks for coming". Getting a blue ribbon at a camporee was a big deal and the honor was not lessened by other top patrols receiving the same award. Is the rank of Eagle lessened because more than one is awarded?

 

Why the emphasis on producing one singular winner? As with most things in life, Scout competitions are best suited for competing against yourself or a standard of excellence.

 

 

[Eagledad 2796]

I spent a lot time building confidence in scouts. I've always said confidence is the flashlight of going into the dark cave of life.

 

That being said, I don't think confidence replaces competition. Competition is the natural instinctive drive to dominate. It gives us the edge to survive. We may not understand it today in a society where we don't have to compete for our very survival, but it is a carryover from the times man had to fight against nature and enemy to survive.

 

Boys have the same natural desire to practice their instinctive survival desires as young animals like lions, tigers, and bears. For humans, it is even more important for boys to practice competitive games so they learn how to control their resultant emotions. Uncontrolled reactions are the natural instinctive animal responses to actions and events that challenge the brains view of a safe or perfect environment. Training ourselve to react against our instincts and to act appropriately within the acceptance of our culture is developing character. The whole idea of the BSA program is putting boys in a safe environment where they experience the natural urges so that they develop the character to resist those urges.

 

I think a discussion of how to provide a safe environment for boys to practice competition is important. But I think suggesting competition is bad for a boy is distructive for raising a boy into a healthy man. I'll bet every one of us can think of a situation where an adult behaved badly in competition. Win or loose, that is an instance of a person not learning how to deal with their emotions as a youth. The lessons that teach us character usually come at a much higher cost when we are adults.

 

Barry

[Mr. Boyce 13]

We underestimate the kids' intelligence: they know BS participation ribbons/trophies from the real thing. This said, they like having STUFF, so it's STUFF to have.

 

What creates genuine self-esteem is demonstrating ability at a task, whether this task is looked at in itself, or in comparison to others.

 

In scouting, it was eye-opening to me to see the value of co-operation, as a youth. But competitive events are surely good and enjoyable. They just don't need a "life or death" stress on one incident.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

>

 

 

Who suggested that?

[Eagledad 2796]

>>No matter how one sugar-coats the process, competition means someone's going to win and everyone else is going to lose.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Since my email spun off this thread I am a big believer in competition. I was just mad I got maimed in a losing football season; a championship game would have made it easier. But seriously I think competition --especially Patrol vs Patrol competition is healthy. Yes a much gentler approach is needed with cubbies.

 

IMHO the "everybody is a winner" attitude erodes the ability to get boys to understand that they must meet the advancement and merit badge requirements. That is why it is easier to deal with "do your best" in cub scouting vs. "be prepared" in Scouting.

 

Boys naturally compete anyway. That said it is important to minimize subjective competitions if it leads to boys to feeling their is a sense of injustice; trying to find fair competitions is tough. We try to rotate the type so some are brain or knowledge based, some are oriented toward those with more scout skills, some are easier for physically smaller boys, etc. We try to make them fun. If they are silly sometimes the adult "patrol" competes as well --we usually lose.

 

It is hard to teach good sportsmanship --on either side of equation-- if there is no winner or loser.

 

If an older boy is playing sports would we even be asking this question? Or spelling bees or getting grades?

 

I have only won a couple big competitions in my life --1st -courting my wife and 2nd getting a job after beating out 80 other candidates. And yeah after many, many losses it felt all the sweeter.

[qwazse 4368]

Competition gives you the opportunity to build character. And it's not just about shaking hands after the game.

 

"Do your best." Well, if someone just like you scored higher (had a faster car) than you, that may be an indication that what you thought was your best actually wasn't. Those tears -- if they're sincere -- may set you on a journey to do better.

 

"Help the pack grow." Well, if you came in first (or came in dead last, but everyone thought your car was the coolest looking), maybe it's time to show other scouts how to do their best. Maybe your dad or mom's shop is better, or they taught you some skills, or you just put down the video game and devoted more hours to your task. Time to share those.

 

That's the basic role of competition (including rank advancement): to give boys a crude scale to let them know where they stand. And that's why as the youth get older, they get more diverse requirements, to let them know their strengths and weaknesses and to discover who has what gift. It sure beats waiting for a teacher to grade your paper!

[Eagledad 2796]

>>I have only won a couple big competitions in my life --1st -courting my wife

[Stosh 3452]

Scout A approaches the trauma victim and asks what's wrong. The Victim says he has a broken arm. Scout A grabs a couple of sticks and splints it up with necker ties. The whole process takes less than 1 minute.

 

Scout B approaches the trauma victim and says, I noticed you hurt your arm, huh! Where exactly does it hurt? Do you hurt anywhere else? He calls out to another buddy to go for help. Gets a couple of splints which he pads with neckers and tapes it up with duct tape. Then he takes a pulse in the victim's hand to make sure it isn't too tight. Then he creates a sling because the splint is kind of heavy and frees up the victim's other hand from having to hold it. The whole process takes about 10-15 minutes. Way too long for the competition.

 

If I break my arm I want the loser to attend to me.

 

Being first isn't always being the best. Confidence in being the best beats out competitions any day. Too often I see competition requirements not measuring correctly and giving the boys a false sense of what is really important, and sometimes being first isn't all that important.

 

A patrol that has the best first aid person, the best fire builder, the best cook, the best.... etc. is the goal and often times that patrol will function at a higher level, but will get beat out by the others on a regular basis. A patrol that has all second place "winners" will never win anything not even the overall.

 

When I venture out into the woods, I may not be the best at any of the outdoor skills, but when I'm in a group, not necessarily scouts, everyone seems to expect me to lead because I do very well at everything, but I'm sure that in any of the vast tool box of skills necessary for the trip, I can be beat out on individual skills by other members of the group.

 

I never get picked first when sport teams are being selected, usually last or on a good day, second from the last. But if something goes terribly wrong, my name gets called out first if I'm within earshot.

 

Subjectivity is very difficult to measure.

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hello Eagledad,

 

 

>

 

 

Yes, I think that competition that is excessively sharp at too young an age too often does bring out the worst in boys and adults.

 

Again, I don't have issues with competitions typically done in Boy Scouts.

 

But in Cub Scouts parents (fathers in particular) too often create excessively sharp competitions which they then want their boy or themselves to win.

 

The competitions often become excessively complicated in my view. Do you really need computer timed PWD races down to 1/1000 second?

 

I look at the competitions BOYS like to do. They LIKE competitions, and they like being winners and don't mind losing, but they prefer to experience being both winners and losers. And experiencing being both a winner and loser are both good experiences.

 

I could easily sharpen up competitions so there was one winner and forty nine losers in a Cub Scout Pack. That would be a poor activity in my view.

 

Boys who have a PWD car or paper airplane that loses several times is motivated to analyze why and correct it right away, and see the change in performance that the change reflects.

 

Sorry. I see many of the objections raised to be adult objections, not ones that boys would make.

 

And again -- this kind of competition is aimed primarily at Tiger Cubs, Wolves and Bears.

 

Webelos are probably ready for sharper kinds of competition.

 

But in my experience, younger boys do better with simpler kinds of competition. The competition is still there for them to learn from, just not as sharp.

 

[Eagledad 2796]

>>And again -- this kind of competition is aimed primarily at Tiger Cubs, Wolves and Bears.