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Beavah

Rejecting ASM Applications from College Students

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Thanks for clarifying: my understanding of the situation was incorrect. Mea culpa. With that information, this becomes completely different- if he was 28, I feel like he doesn't fit in with the age group we're discussing (I think of "college-age" for for this age as undergraduate students) and, if he actually saw this happening (I had understood he had only heard stories second-hand), his lack of action is reprehensible.

 

I guess I can only stand on my previous question: Why are we using this case to cast college students as suspicious when we're discussing how it was much older men who perpetrated, and covered up for, these acts of sexual abuse?

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in fact our troop won't even let the kids who eagled and aged out in our troop come back as leaders.

 

I'm sorry to hear that Beardad. I think that is the absolute worst waste of a resource. You just spent up to 7 years training them, and then say adios. I do hope you encourage them and help them to find another unit to serve.

 

 

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Amazing ... really guys?

 

The simple fact is that the grad assistant SHOULD have pulled that 10 year old out of that shower (by force if necessary) and then called the Police. Not wait to report it to Joe Pa ... that's just protected in the interest of the institution.

 

This circus would have ended right then ... not 10 years later. How many other boys suffered as a result.

 

To circle back to this thread ... does this perhaps this show another reason to avoid College age ASM's ... they can't be expected to take the correct action, regardless of the fallout?

 

Let's say some College ASM witnesses the same act, as was described by the Penn State grad student, in the Camp shower hall ... is he expected to walk away and wait until the next day to inform Camp Staff?

 

If so, then I want my boys no where near any BSA outing.

 

I don't think I'd split hairs over 18 vs 28. In fact if I can't depend on a 28 year old grad student, I sure can't depend on an 18 or 19 year old undergrad.

(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

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Fair point, OGE. You're right that McQueary shouldn't be blameless here. To be honest I have tried not to know some of the more graphic details because it is so sickening. And so I haven't read the indictment. Perhaps that turning away is unacceptable and I need to think some more about that response. I appreciate that you've caused me to do so.

 

 

The notion that a college-aged Eagle scout should be rejected based on his age because a relatively younger individual (not as young as I had thought, granted) at PSU didn't take stronger action in the face of obvious violence against a child, is ludicrous, though. The PSU situation, like so many other scandals of a similar sort, does reflect the fact that older people in positions of authority certainly aren't inherently more trustworthy than younger people. (And maybe are less so, given that they've internalized the idea of protecting institutions at the expense of protecting individuals) And there, in fact, I think this scandal really flies in the face of what Engineer61 is saying.

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Engenieer61.....your stereotyping of young adults is grossly negligent.

 

I myself am 21 Given the situation in which you are talking about I know for a fact I would have on in and beat the crap out of those adults and gotten the kid out of there and I know many many young adults that would do the same. I even know kids that would have acted.

 

What happened was a bad situation and the 28 year didnt handle it as appropriately as he should.....but at the very least he tried to stop it from happening in the future by reporting it.

 

Young adults dont always have the experience in different situation but by leaving them out of the loop you negate the ability for them to get it. This kid could have been taught to stand up for those smaller than him and protect people. Instead he was probably taught to leave things alone and report them later.

 

By accepting the young adults into your troop you get all the positive training and experience in which they already have and you have the chance to help guide them to make better decisions in the future. You give them more experiences from which to make decisions. Learning doesnt stop just because you turn 18.

 

The young adults are great assets and may have great things to contribute to the troop. Boys listen to them and a lot of adults will still listen to them (not all because some have age discrimination which is a bloody shame). They can be great role models and the actions of one person do not reflect the actions of everybody.

 

I have seen on multiple occasions the boys (not young adults now, boys) make better decisions than adults.....so by your own logic if they can make the right decisions than obviously a young adult can as well.

 

The incident you are talking about is a shame and should never have happened but it has no bearing on the discussion.

(This message has been edited by MoosetheItalianBlacksmith)

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Eng61: We agree that the situation was handled poorly. However, I'm also going to agree with Moose-Blacksmith: condemning a group based on the actions of a few is grossly negligent. If we turned this around we could say that, in the interest of youth safety, we should not allow anyone over the age of 40 to volunteer with the Boy Scouts since we have seen cases of 40 year-olds molesting Scouts.

 

You are using the graduate student as evidence that college students are not worthy of serving as leaders. However, it looks like you are giving the "adults" a free pass both in this scandal and in Scouting. We have a phrase for this: age discrimination.

 

If you honestly believe young Scouters are mostly interested in the program because they want to molest children, or you think they are too young to serve as leaders, you are free to believe these things. Just be willing to state them openly and without having to invent reasons for your prejudices.

 

I am a 20 year old College Scouter (and Eagle Scout) and have been in Scouting for literally 75% of my life. The first thing I did in my new district as an 18 year old Scouter was go with my OA Adviser to a neighboring troop and intervene in a bullying case that was related to the OA- this happened a matter of days after it came to light. As a 19 year old Eagle Scout, I had to listen to an older victim's screams of pain as I splinted her dislocated knee and did it well enough that she was able to be taken to the hospital. As a 20 year old lifeguard, I saved a child's life this past summer. Do you see a pattern? The pattern is reading situations and reacting appropriately

 

However, because you say "if I can't depend on a 28 year old grad student, I sure can't depend on an 18 or 19 year old undergrad," I must have made the wrong decisions. Apparently, I should have done exactly the opposite of my impulses and allowed the bullying to continue, ignored the girl who dislocated her knee, and allowed the child to drown. I'm assuming that is not what you meant but, according to your trust in us to do the opposite of the right thing, that seems to be what you would suggest.

 

If you doubt that any young people have the ability to react well in a situation, look at the lifeguards at your local pool: a lot of them are teenagers and most of them are a credit to the profession. Age is not the sole indicator of maturity.

 

Please explain to Moose-Blacksmith and I how we are unqualified to serve as Scouters. Dismissing Scouters simply because of their ages would be like waving off help from an EMT or a police officer because of their age: You have trained people who are more than qualified to help. I look forward to the day that you wave off the help of a police officer or an EMT who is under 30 because it will never happen. Don't assume that people under 30 make useless leaders any more than you would assume emergency workers under 30 must be worthless employees.(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

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Yep, some of my best assistants or adult helpers were recently aged out scouts; and a couple were not even Eagles. But, I do not see Engineer giving up his bias. Whatever the REAL reason for it is, it appears to be emotionally embedded. JMO of course.

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"To circle back to this thread ... does this perhaps this show another reason to avoid College age ASM's ... they can't be expected to take the correct action, regardless of the fallout?"

 

No more than it shows a reason to avoid older men who:

are football coaches

husbands

have adopted children

sheltered foster kids

started a charitable organization

 

Why would you take the PSU situation as an inditement of college kids and not an inditement of the later?

 

 

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Eng,

 

And your point is?

 

Seriously the purpose of the leader application si to find out about the leader, VET HIS REFERENCES, get his info to do a Criminal background check, etc,

 

By basing judgements only on age you lose out.

 

What about the 18 yo life guard, ot for that matter teh 16 and 17 y.o certified lifeguards, who saves lives?

 

What about the 18YO life guard instructor who trains and certifies people to become lifeguards?

 

What about the 19 yo EMT?

 

What about the 18 YO soldier, Marine, sailor, airman, or guardsman defending our country?

 

What about the 20 yo RN who is taking care of you or a family member in teh hospital?

 

Shall I go on?

 

Age should not be a factor. Their knowledge, skills, and abilities are what need to be the factor. I'd rather have a 18 yo with the outdoor KSAs, heck I'd take my 14 yo former Den Chief, as a leader of a group of scouts in the outdoors, than some adults I know because the adults lack those skills.

 

IMHO, one of the disadvantages with sports compared to Scouting is that adults tell the kids what to do all the time in sports. Kids do not have the chance to take initiative or lead like they do in Scouting.

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McQueary may be an Eagle, but he is IS an athelete and I thought you had expounded on the virtures of Athletics over Scouting in developing charactor or am I wrong about your love of sports over anything scouting?

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Today is Veterans' Day, and my thoughts go to the fine men and women who have fought and in some cases died for our country. Many of them were 19, 18, and in some cases 17, and a significant number of them were Eagles...

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Whether McQueary is an Eagle is irrelevant. If you want to indict Eagle Scouts based on the actions of one person, I'll save you the trouble of searching: Russell Henderson was an Eagle Scout. Russell Henderson was also one of the murderers of Matthew Shepard (I'm not going to describe the brutal murder but you are welcome to research the specifics). If you want to indict Eagles, here's your guy. He's as nasty an Eagle Scout as you will find.

 

Does that make all two million plus of us suspect? Absolutely not. As Sherm mentioned, some of the best examples of the Eagle rank (and/or the qualities associated with it) have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country. For every disgrace to the rank, there are many, many more who bring honor to it.

 

If you want to actually keep a productive discussion going, respond to the questions about young professionals (they've been posed by a few people now). Alternately, explain to me how I made the wrong decision in interrupting my daily routine to splint an injured woman's dislocated knee or by intervening in a bullying situation.

 

I know from reading your past posts that you carry a chip about not being a Scout. Now I am wondering if your desire to avoid these former Eagles and young Scouters stems from the fact that you were not one yourself. Perhaps it could be a mishandled jealousy?

 

I am trying to come up with reasons that you would attempt to compare me and my fellow College Scouters (not all of whom are Eagles or even male, by the way) to an accessory to child molestation but I am running out of ideas. Perhaps you could enlighten us with an honest explanation rather than offensive and baseless attacks.(This message has been edited by Eagle707)

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Mcqueary may be an Eagle ... Huh?? Engineer your whole logic is ludicrus, and this line is no better.. You can not take one case which involves many people and pull one fact about one of the people out of it, and say it proves a whole group is untrustworthy(and a group who is not even part of that group.. 18 - 22 is not the same as 28 year olds).. Then add on to it a "may be" statement, with no proof. But even it was a fact still does not define a whole group.

 

People are individuals and each person reacts differently when faced with a situation..

 

By your logic if we are going to condemn whole groups on the action of this one case. We must not get are children involved in team sports, nor allow them to go to college. Nor trust any man of any age group..

 

There are known cases mothers killing their children, turning a blind eye as their children were molested by their father/step-father/her boyfriend lets take all children away from their mothers.

 

There are known cases of fathers beating their children to death and molesting them, lets take all children away from their fathers..

 

Kids have killed parents and siblings.. So again we must seperate these parings..

 

You will find a case that involves almost every age (even ten year olds playing with guns), both genders hurting or killing others..

 

Therefore we each should have our own padded cell and each have no contact with any other individual. After all if one person commits a crime that has any attribute similar to us, then we are equally guilty of the crime.. Whether they be similar by gender, religion, age, eye or hair color, career choice, hobbies etc. etc. on and on..

 

You should not have your children in scouts now. We already have past cases of sexual abuse in scouting, therefore all scouters are evil and wicked..

 

Yes, you should always be alert, and double check and ask questions if something seems suspicious.. But, in order to have a normal life in the world we live in, you also must judge everyone individually and learn to find a way to give trust to others until something happens that betrays that trust..

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