Righting a wrong

[Eamonn 61]

HWMBO and I don't fight or "Get into it" very often.

When we do have a heated discussion I get upset when she says things like"You always..." Or brings up things that I have done way back in history.

The fact is that I don't always do what I'm accused of, even if I may well have done it once.

 

There are people who from an early age show signs of needing lots of help. I'd be worried if my son had from an early age started killing and enjoyed killing small animals and setting fire to the house.

 

I am not trained in understanding human behavior. While I have had a couple of very general trainings that barely skim the surface, I don't in any way claim to be any sort of an expert.

When faced with someone who has done something wrong, I feel that what happens next? Is very much up to me and left very much on my door step.

When trying to work out or determine what happens next? I fall back on my values and my sense of what is right and what is wrong, which for the most part are one and the same.

While I don't like it when HWMBO brings up things that are from the past. I know that when dealing with a wrong doer, I don't just deal with the situation or wrong doing that is at hand, but I do allow my past dealings, my history with the person come into play.

When dealing with children or young adults I also allow my own past history to come into play. Sometimes if I remember that I did something similar, I think that I'm better able to relate to what has happened and very often am more sympathetic.

A big difference between dealing with a wrong that a child or young adult has done and my fighting with HWMBO is all too often when I fighting with her is that both of us are trying to score points. I know it's silly and no matter how many points are scored that there is never a winner. Still we allow it to go on. But when dealing with a young person, I'm not trying to score anything. My hope or maybe my goal is in some way to correct something.

While there are times when part of this is making good and fixing what has been taken or broken. There is more.

Sometimes this more is some kind of a punishment.

A lot of times when something can't be made whole, returned, fixed or replaced, punishment seems to be the only path that is open.

I remember when my son was very little that we had a Time Out Chair.

The thinking was that by sending him to sit in this chair he would have time to calm down and reflect on why he had been made to sit there.

When I was very little, I don't think the idea of Time Out was around and I got a little smack on the behind. The idea I think was that I'd reflect on why I'd been hit?

Sometimes I wished that I had been able to give my son a little whack! It was a lot less work than trying to enforce the Time Out chair.

Growing up when I did and where I did whacking kids seemed to be the punishment of choice. The list of people who whacked me and who were permitted to whack me is a very long list.

While we now see whacking as being wrong. I have to admit that even as a kid some parts of it weren't all that bad. The best part for me was that it was a one time deal and was over with quick.

I suppose as a deterrent being hit and the fear of being hit did work fairly well. I knew that I didn't enjoy it. But as for bringing about a change of behavior?

I' think maybe it may have made me more worried about getting caught than bringing about any real change.

In a Scouting setting, even though I'm informed that "Safe Haven" is no longer in use. I still think we want Scouting to be a safe place.

I can see and do agree that removing bullies who hurt and harm others is as a rule a good thing to do.

Punishment in Scouting is really tough.

Sure removing the Lad from Scouting prevents any future problems, but does little to help bring about the change we are supposed to be working toward.

The good old stand by of doing extra chores, cleaning the bathrooms and the like are frowned upon.

So how do you deal with punishments and righting wrongs?

Eamonn.

[Basementdweller 608]

Current SM speaks with the parent who is expected to deal with it.

 

We have a young man who is a killer of all things small. As a result, the young men who used to enjoy rolling over a rotten log and seeing what was home are no longer permitted to do it. the killer killed a number of turtles, frogs and salamanders on an outing. SM spoke with parents who did nothing but laughed about it....he does it at home too.

 

We had a young man swearing, mom force him to write letters of apology to the troop.

 

Punishment is interesting. Son and daughters soccer team make them run laps and do sit ups and push ups. For something as silly as missing a pass or not moving fast enough. could you imagine scouting doing that.....Swearing gets you 10 laps around the CO????

 

 

[qwazse 4357]

I used time-out and whacking with my kids.

 

Whacking was a quick way of sparing them the time-out. If they were acting violence on one another, it was a way of saying their actions were begetting violence, and we (mom and I) will firmly stand in that path and block their way with force if necessary. It immediately re-opened paths to them, but some paths they would tread with fear.

 

Time-outs were an exquisite form of tourture because it forced them to comply to a behavior we wanted. (e.g. "Be still for as many minutes as your age. And, when you come out I expect you to apologize/do your chores/clean your mess/be kind.") It allowed them the opportunity to figure out the best path to follow to avoid this painful interruption.

 

In parenting, you need both. But in both cases, we had to explain why we did what we did afterword. Sometimes with the warning that our negative reinforcement was sparing them harsher punishments as adults from strangers. Sometimes with apologies if in fact we over-reacted. Always with the promise that we love them.

 

In scouts, we have more constraints. (Whacking is prohibited and time-outs are just silly.) But what is interesting is watching the older boys sort out how to treat the tough cases.

[Stosh 3452]

I use "time-out" but the offender determines the length of time. The discussion usually goes something like: "The behavior is unacceptable, time out until the behavior changes." If the offender then repeats, it's time-out until help can be acquired to make the appropriate behavior changes, i.e. parental involvement, counseling, etc. It's the offender's choice as to what help he thinks is needed and for how long. The third strike means permanent time-out. Obviously the behavior is not going to change, but it is my responsibility to insure the behavior no longer affects those to whom I owe the responsibility.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[acco40 95]

Yes, as parents, it is our duty to show that our physical capabilities allow us to hit, move, belittle, shame and threaten those who give us displeasure. My problem as a Scoutmaster was that with many of the older Scouts, I did not have that physical advantage. So my solution was to recruit new SAs based on height, weight and muscle mass. In fact, if we do this correctly, we will serve as role models for the youth and if were smart, use non-aged based patrols so the 16-17 year old patrol leaders can use the same leadership skills we practice to keep their patrol mates functioning at peak efficiency.

 

Okay, now to be serious, as Scouters with direct youth contact, one thing we need to emphasize is a safe environment. Only if immediate safety was a concern would I physically interfere with another Scout in a violent manner.

 

If I had a "small creature" terrorist in my midst, I would simply state to that Scout that his behavior was not allowed. No big lecture, no immediate punishment but I set expectations and would state very clearly that the consequences for action A is consequence B. Something like - if you gratuitously kill small creatures you will be removed from an outing (or whatever) and then I would make sure that I follow through. Now, I can kill a mosquito but pelting a squirrel with a rock is not okay? I can put a worm on a hook and jab that hook through the "lips" of a fish but stomping on the head of a garter snake is not? It can be confusing to children (and adults) who seem to have arbitrary "rules" but nonetheless, the important lesson is that the Scouts are given expectations (reasonable ones hopefully) and they should strive to live up to them.

 

I have had limited training in human behavior and not having empathy for other living creatures is one of the warning signs for anti-social behavior and a host of other mental illnesses.

[packsaddle 753]

Cattle prods are great! Work wonders in crowds too!

So we're on a long trip in the church bus. I notice people in cars pointing at us. Bad sign. I check what's going on. Two of the more 'creative' boys have a paper sign with some rude words on it...posting it in the window. So I confiscate the sign and ask the boys to think about their apology to their parents and the minister of the church...for the rest of the trip.

It was almost a blessing...one of the best, least troublesome trips ever. And boy,oh,boy they did think about it too. Parents made them wash the bus and write letters of apology. That was many years ago. I saw one of them the other day and asked if he was in still in Advertising? We both laughed.

[Basementdweller 608]

Now that is a great story.

[qwazse 4357]

My favorite line to Sunday school kids 3rd -5th:

"You seem to be having a tough time with compliance today, I guess we'd better have you join your mom in her class."

 

Fact is, I try very hard to avoid using the words "time out", I don't even call them "three warnings". At the beginning of the year I say, "If you're having a tough time being respectful in class there are three things that we will try to do to help you. 1. We'll let you know your being disrespectful, just in case you didn't notice. 2. We'll let you sit away from the class for a minute because sometimes you just need a moment to focus. 3. We'll find your parent so they can help you."

 

Some years we have behavior disorder kids and I insist on having a co-teacher who can either take over the class or address the behavior in a moments notice. Again, in a place with walls, hallways and doors it's a little easier.

 

At camp, the complexity increases. Plenty of space. No corners to sit in. Escalation comes too fast. And like jBlake said, sometimes safety is all that matters. I've seen the worst punishment being ending the game (or whatever was feeding the rage), the perpetrator feels responsible for ruining his friends' fun, he later apologizes. Tough on the rest of the boys, though.

[BadenP 93]

These stories bring to memory a teacher I had in jr. high who would walk around the class carrying a yardstick with a plastic skull on the end and a rubberband in its mouth. If we were talking or not paying attention in class within a minute or two you would suddenly hear a snap and feel that rubberband hit the back of your head. It usually only took one or two times before you learned your lesson permanently.

 

Ahhh, the good old days.

[Eamonn 61]

I was born with the gift of the gab.

It is very rare for me to be found speechless or unable to at least give as good as I get.

About a year back I was doing a presentation about food safety for the inmates where I work.

The group wasn't very large, about ten young guys aged from about 21 -25.

One guy was playing up acting the clown and just wouldn't quit.

I just wasn't able to get through to him, so I said to him "Hey Sean, if you keep it up I'm going to have to write you a ticket."

Write ups in jail are dealt with by a Hearing Examiner. He or She gets the write up confronts the inmate and decides if he is indeed guilty or not and then hands out a punishment if he is guilty.

The punishment can range from Cell Restriction with loss of privileges to being sent to the Restricted Housing Unit. (Most inmates call the RHU "The Hole".)

This young guy stood up and looked me right in the eye and said " Mr W. What the !*$@ (Feel free to fill in the blanks!) Do you think you can do to me? I'm serving two life sentences and twenty years. Do you really think I'm worried about a ticket?"

I was really shocked and taken back.

No one ever cusses or swears at me, in fact inmates can get written up for swearing at a staff member, but I was so taken back at that moment that I didn't even give that a thought.

It took me what seemed like a long time, but was only a matter of seconds to come up with a reply.

 

After the class I met with him and his Unit Manager and we had a little chat about his behavior.

I didn't write him up. That somehow got lost along the way.

He did for reasons not known to me do a couple of spells in the RHU.

A month or so back I did run into him and I asked him how things were going?

He said "A lot better". He went on to tell me that I was right when I'd said to him that it was up to him how hard or how easy he made living in jail was going to be.

I must have touched a nerve.

Strange thing is that I can't remember saying it.

Things are good between him and I.

He never ever passes me or sees me without saying hi.

I know it might sound odd but I kinda like him. I put the fact that he is guilty of a double murder on the back burner.

Ea.