How to Handle Adults

[Platypus96]

Hi! I am a youth member of my troop.I don't really hold a leadership position anymore, but am the OA rep because I am the Chapter Chief of our chapter. My friend, who is currently the SPL, is having some trouble. The scout who he ran against for SPL does not like the way he is running the troop and is turning the adult leadership against him. Now they don't really let him run the troop, constantly critisizing him and not letting him plan meetings because they do not believe that he can do it. he really is able to lead the troop, the adults just don't let him. How can I help him to get the adults back on his side?

[moosetracker]

Question is, did they let the SPL's before him run the troop? If the troop is truely boy-lead, the Adults should know better then to unravel all the work of getting the troop to be boy-lead for one SPL.. I would guess the troop was never really boy-lead in the first place.

 

He may have difficulty with the boy he ran against, but his focus should not be on him, but on working with the adults. If this scout is able to get a rise out of the SPL by pushing his buttons, it will do nothing to improve his image with the adults.

 

Could this SPL get the boys to back him? Starting with his Patrol Leaders.. If the Patrol Leaders will back him, they can collectively talk to the SM & ASM's.. I would imagine if he was elected by his peers, he must have the majority of their backing..

 

The boys must come up with an idea of how they want the troop to run, and put into words what boy-lead means to them. Then as a group (Patrol Leader Council if all the boys) present their demands to the SM & ASM's of the troop.

 

 

[Platypus96]

The troop was previously somewhat boy led, but we have a new scoutmaster this year who still seems to be in cubmaster mode. The SPL is backed by some of his patrol leaders, but some of the older boys who are close to eagle but were not elected as leaders dislike him because he is younger than him and they don't like that he is "in charge" of them. One of these scouts is the son of the CC and advancement coordinator, and they are giving him a lot of trouble. The scoutmaster seems to be on his side, but he isn't very outspoken and is not giving him any help. Because his other older scouts are refusingto do what he asks for the meetings, he keeps having to ask me to do last minute presentations and games. He is getting very frustrated, and isn't really enjoying scouts because of this.

[moosetracker]

Is the older boys a seperate issue, or are they the same age of the boy who lost the SPL spot?.. In otherwords are they a "Clique" and if the SPL can "grudgingly" convert the original problem, he can "grudgingly" convert the rest of them.. Or is he dealing with two different issues.

 

The one thing your friend needs to remember is to hang in there.. His post as SPL is for a short time over the rest of his scouting career. For good or for bad, the experience he gains from it will help make him stronger when he walks into the real world and falls into a similar situation. (Like being a new hire for a company and others resenting his hire, because they wanted the job, or did not feel they needed extra help.)

 

You posted on the weekend. Sometimes the boards get quiet on a weekend, but I am sure eventually there will be more giving you advice then me..

 

I asked my husband, this is his advice. But, it will take courage on the part of your friend.

 

Organize a meeting with the boy and his parents and the SM (for a witness of what is said). Directly approach the issue. Something like. "I know I was elected to this position rather then name of boy .. I am trying to do a good job, but feel hindered by the three of you. I can't help but think it is personal because of the election. I want all of you to remember that my term in this position is short, it will only be 6 months (or whatever). In the meantime, your undermining my ability to do the job, is changing the dynamics of this troop from being boy led, to being adult led.. This change may linger for years.. Also while you undermine me while I am SPL, you are building up resentment in my friends in the troop. Eventually name of boy may have his chance to be SPL, there will be another election in xxx months. (if he could promote the boy for the next election he could say that, but there may be reasons he wouldn't.).. But if not, the undermining of my authority continues, this will be remembered by others in the troop, both during the time of election, and (if he gets the position) while he is SPL.. I'd rather find a way for the four of us to work together over the course of my term, and then work together over the course of name of boy term. If we work together we can make this troop strong. If we continue to pull each other apart, the troop will suffer.

 

If he has the courage to make his stand, and talk not only about himself, but the good of the troop, and he has the SM as witness. He should gain their respect. If not, he has tuned the SM in to the fact these 3 are only in the troop for the benifit of the son, not the troop.. Your SM may be new, and unsure of himself, but over time this should change.

 

As SPL your friend can try to help the SM in his new role, by advising him on the difference between boy-led in a troop, and adult-led of a Pack.. By trying to give helpful friendly advise, rather then just grumbling behind his back for his inability to do the job, or argueing with him over an issue. If the troop put someone in the position of SM who just hopped out of cub scouts, he may be there because he was the only one willing to take on the position, not realizing what he was getting himself into. The boys of your troop can respect him for stepping up, and help him learn his new job. Your friend helping the troop get a good SM during his time as SPL will be a feather in his cap at the end of his term even if nothing else works out.

[Mike F]

Platypus,

 

First of all, congratulations! You are a leader and it sounds like you're a wise and experienced one.

The fact that your official position in the troop is OA rep does not mean you have a small voice and responsibility as a member team. Your troop and your friend need you to stay engaged - and you're doing just that.

 

I was in a similar position many moons ago - even had to break in my new SM.

Your friend is the SPL and he has access to SM by virtue of his position that others don't have.

Don't let the chatter get to him.

He should set up regular, weekly tagups with the SM to discuss the troop, upcoming plans, staff progress, leadership challenges, etc. Don't start dumping on the other guy too much at first. Work with SM and give them both a chance to learn to work together.

As SM gets to know SPL, he'll also begin to see how SM needs to assist him - maybe by helping run interference.

My preference as SPL was to go over to SM's home on Sun evening. With my SPL today we do more via email, but meet in person periodically.

 

SPL should come to these short meetings prepared with ideas - not just blank sheets of paper. SM will respect the heck out of that.

 

Try to diffuse it away from SPL versus disgruntled scout. Rather than arguing about how well the troop is running and why, just grab hold and run it while seeking advice and guidance from SM. In truth, they will be learning together.

 

Hang in there!

[John-in-KC]

Platypus,

 

Welcome.

 

I would offer that as Chapter Chief, you have access to great leaders across your District. You might invite one or more of them to have breakfast with you and your SPL. Lay the cards on the table, let them (and they are far more local than we) share ways to get through this.

 

Another way is to have invite a working breakfast somewhere, with SM and SPL. Invite one of those adults you trust, one who understands youth independence in leadership, to help guide the SM's conversation... ;-)

 

Good hunting.

[Platypus96]

Thank you all for your reponses! John-In-KC, thank you for your advice. I had not thought of going out of the troop for help. In our district, units tend to not interact with other troops, even though there are several other troops in our town.

 

Moosetracker, the SM sent out an email today requesting several youth leaders and adults to have a meeting after our PLC tomorow. Hopefully, he will be vocal in his support of the SPL. Unfortunatley, I am the only youth he invited that will side with the SPL. In the past, these meetings have tended to get taken over by the advancement coordinator, who doesn't like the SPL very much because his son doesn't get along with him. Any advice I can give my friend about this meeting? What can he say to help him gain these leader's respect?

 

 

[Stosh]

Platypus96 points out a very common element in problemed troops. I see it all the time, and is most evident when the "leader" is younger than others.

 

In the opening few pages of the PL handbook, there is a one time vague reference to servant leadership. As SPL, in theory he should be well aware of how this works. If not it might be a good idea to review it once more.

 

Being "leader" using the direct command style of management will work only if one is in the position of being able to enforce it. As PL one only needs to keep 7 others in line. Most kids, even if necessary, can bully others into getting the work done.

 

However, if there are those whose leadership is stronger, the traditional "p----ing match" develops and both vie for top-dog position. Sounds a wee bit like some of this is happening in the politics amongst the boy leadership. That's really not the SM's fault.

 

The second problem one has with the troop-method is the fact that the SPL is expected to lead the whole troop. Good luck. I don't see many boys with leadership skills to effectively do that. I see very few adults with the leadership skills to pull it off either in 25+ sized troops. Heck, professional teachers are just barely comfortable with class sizes of 25+. They have absolute rule and it doesn't always work out for them.

 

So, if this gentleman wishes to develop some actual leadership dynamics in the group he will need to divide and conquer. As SENIOR PL, work with the PL's to get them functioning in their patrols. Start using the patrol method and keep the combined forces of the troop at bay.

 

Obviously from your initial comment, you believe in the abilities of this boy. You are "just" the OA Rep. Okay, you're getting credit for advancement maybe, but as a troop officer, you can take on the job of being an JASM and mentor him in his leadership development. A coach doesn't run any plays, an orchestra director makes no sound, and the driver's ed teacher sits in the passenger seat. Lead from the back. Do what it takes to make him look good. Quietly offer up suggestions and observations that he might want to address but may be missing. Be the first to put Sign's Up when the group disrupts him. Suggest (Servant Leadership 101) that he address only the PL's of which he is responsible for. If someone is acting up in someone's patrol, direct the comments to the PL. This puts the onus on the PL to start functioning properly. If the older PL's aren't cooperating, suggest to the SPL he offer up his help in assisting that PL to get his patrol under control. If he demands the PL do something he will get resistance. If it is suggested and the PL ignores it, an adult will eventually step in and assist the SPL as well.

 

If this SPL is ultimately responsible for the troop he has two options. 1) he can direct the whole troop (good luck!) or he can direct/suggest the PL's to actually step up and lead their patrols. Patrol #1 - Flags, Patrol #2 - Lesson, Patrol #3 - game, Patrol #4 - Camporee planning, Patrol #5 - Popcorn Sales, etc. Rotate it and expect the PL's to follow through on their leadership. The idle hands are the Devil's Workshop. Have the SPL keep the PL's busy with their responsibilities and he won't have to worry about the troop as a whole. The troop is too big to be doing it for himself, divide up the responsibility and expect others assist in the leadership.

 

If you will notice I only had one minor comment on the adults, discipline when necessary. That can be corrected by you stepping in before they do and assist. This is the key to boy-led, beat the adults to the punch! The more this boy keeps the adults out of the way with your assistance, the greater the chance he will have to actually lead. Come prepared with an outline of patrol assigned responsibilities, be brief with your explanation of expectations, and follow up with any assistance any PL might be having with his patrol's compliance. At the end of each meeting have the PL's give a report on any on-going planning a patrol may be involved in, i.e. Venture Patrols plans for Philmont, etc.

 

I find that if one outlines the structure of expectations and constantly asks for a review of progress, the PL's will be too busy to sit around idly and think of ways to get the SPL in trouble.

 

I have taught my boys that any time an adult steps in and interferes with their leadership they have an obligation to politely say, "With all due respect, Mr. SM, (ASM, CC, whatever), that's my leadership responsibility, please allow me the opportunity to do it." If they balk at that, politely ask, "Is there a specific issue you wish to help me with in doing it?" Never take your eye off the ball that leadership is one's own responsibility, but others are there to help you with constant improvement.

 

I hope these suggestions may give you some assistance in helping this boy.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Stosh

[moosetracker]

Platypus - I like some of the others ideas better then mine, so I would suggest you go to the meeting your SM has organized (If it may be about what you think it is, hopefully, your SM invited your SPL friend).. It may or may not be the issue, if the SM does bring up the situation, hopefully he is supporting the SPL.. That is what his job is all about. You and your friend should let the SM lead. Have the SPL prepared with his "vision", he may not need to bring it up if the SM is doing a fine job in his support, or if the subject is about something unrelated. He may need to bring it up if the SM is not supporting him. Just organize your thoughts as a team, and be prepared to discuss it professionally and intelligently.

 

If you don't need to bring it up, then don't.. And engage the SM in these plans in a seprate meeting.. And work on putting them into action.

 

I had an idea others may have better ideas.. I was proved right.

[Platypus96]

Stosh, thank you for that reply. Unfortunately, the patrol leaders will no bemuch help. My troop prides itself on not turning away any scouts, so most of our scouts have been asked to leaveother troops because of behavioral issues. Most of the patrol leaders upset easily when asked to help with running the troop, so the SPL ends up with the responsibilty of leading 30+ scouts. He has been asking me forhelp with this, but now the CC is upset that I am doing so much without being in a leadership position. I am the only other scout we have above eighth grade that actually helps the SPL, because the others think that he is disrespectful to them. He isn't, they justthink that being we to get water on a campout is him picking on them.

 

We try to dothings before the adults step in, but they seem to always ask about a problem before it becomes a problem. Because of the large amount of learning disabilities and behavioral issues, they do not trust the boys to lead the other scouts alone. No one ever voeshungry, because if they don't like what their patrol cooked they just get food from the adults. They also ask my patrol to we. Up tents and clean for other patrols, because we are the only ones that know how. We try to teach the other boys, but they don't listen since they know well have to do it for them anyway. Funny thing is, I'm in a two person patrol.

 

[moosetracker]

I am surprised your area has so many "problem" scouts. On rare occasions we have heard of a few, but normally the dynamics of what Boy Scouts is all about will weed them out, if they will not embrace an attitude ajustment due to the program.

 

It would be great for your troop to take these problem scouts on, if your troop had a working program to turn them around and make them responsible young adults.. It sounds like your troop does not, which unfortunatly is hurting your program.

 

If you have so many "problem" scouts, your adult leader should be thankful for your friend, you and any other scouts that are trying to maintain a decent troop program in spite of the challenges.

 

It is hard to get a clear picture of your situation with all the clashing problems, of new SM in cub scout mode, sour grapes of the boy who lost SPL election & his parents, older boys who refuse to follow SPL due to his age, and PL's and others in the troop being "problem" scouts. It's hard to get a solid mental image of all these inner workings and which ones are inter-related (like are the boy who lost, or the boys older then the SPL also the "problem" scouts..

[Stosh]

"Stosh, thank you for that reply. Unfortunately, the patrol leaders will no bemuch help."

 

Here's a suggestion: Your PL's need training. If they are going to take on the position of responsibility (POR) and wear the patch they have to do the job. They need training as to what that job is! The SM's responsibility is to have them trained. If a boy gets credit for a POR and isn't doing the job he is not fulfilling his requirements and is gaining rank dishonestly. Doing one's best is not sitting around collecting credit for not doing one's job.

 

"My troop prides itself on not turning away any scouts, so most of our scouts have been asked to leaveother troops because of behavioral issues. Most of the patrol leaders upset easily when asked to help with running the troop, so the SPL ends up with the responsibilty of leading 30+ scouts."

 

If the SM isn't doing his job of training, it is an issue that needs to be addressed in the troop committee. There is no way a scout should be expected to deal with the troop as a whole especially with boys that have behavioral problems. Training, and quickly is the only solution!

 

"He has been asking me forhelp with this, but now the CC is upset that I am doing so much without being in a leadership position."

 

That's too bad for the CC. Any scout that steps up to help is doing servant leadership and should be encouraged not hassled. Why is the CC upset. He should be upset with the SM for not supporting the boys.

 

"I am the only other scout we have above eighth grade that actually helps the SPL, because the others think that he is disrespectful to them. He isn't, they justthink that being we to get water on a campout is him picking on them."

 

Sounds like a bunch of shirkers that want a babysitter and not a functioning SPL. The PL of the patrol should be informed that his boys need to get water and it is up to the PL to get it done. That's his job, not the SPL's.

 

"We try to dothings before the adults step in, but they seem to always ask about a problem before it becomes a problem. Because of the large amount of learning disabilities and behavioral issues, they do not trust the boys to lead the other scouts alone."

 

But they expect the SPL to do it? Sounds like they are shirking their responsibilities too. The adults need to back and support the SPL, not judge, criticize and harass.

 

"No one ever voeshungry, because if they don't like what their patrol cooked they just get food from the adults."

 

This is because the adults enable it rather than deal with the problems of the troop. If the boys can't cook for themselves properly, they have not earned the rank of First Class.

 

"They also ask my patrol to we. Up tents and clean for other patrols, because we are the only ones that know how."

 

They are shirking their responsibility. If these are First Class scouts, obviously they have gotten their ranks without earning them. All FC scouts should be able to function at an outdoor activity without having to be babysat.

 

"We try to teach the other boys, but they don't listen since they know well have to do it for them anyway."

 

If this be the case, then you are not training them, you are merely encouraging lazy behavior on their part. Let them fail. They have already failed, but don't realize it yet as long as you and your buddy keep covering up for them.

 

"Funny thing is, I'm in a two person patrol."

 

Find six other boys and get them into your patrol. Find the ones that want to make the troop successful and train them and set the example for the others to follow. Keep your camp 300' from the others. Kudu would expect this and in your situation it is necessary. At least a few of you would benefit from the activities even if the rest are just goofing off. If all goes down the drain for the troop, at least you will have 8 well trained boys to recharter and get things going again.

 

When one expects nothing from the boys, that's exactly what they get... nothing.

 

I would suggest (again, it's your leadership that will be necessary, not my say-so) you get your unit commissioner involved, the SM and CC trained for their positions, insist on boy-led (you two have a good start) and use the patrol-method and insist and expect the patrols to be functional. From your description, and it's only one side of the story, your troop sounds totally dys-functional! Everyone is running around doing nothing except find someone to blame for the messes that are guaranteed to come along. This is 100% the example I would ever give as to why adult-led, troop-method just won't work! The SM is abdicating his responsibility to the SPL and then blaming him for when things go wrong. I would suspect the SM can't handle the 30+ boys, but somehow he feels some young SPL can???? I don't think so.

 

Stosh

[Platypus96]

"From your description, and it's only one side of the story, your troop sounds totally dys-functional! Everyone is running around doing nothing except find someone to blame for the messes that are guaranteed to come along. This is 100% the example I would ever give as to why adult-led, troop-method just won't work! The SM is abdicating his responsibility to the SPL and then blaming him for when things go wrong. I would suspect the SM can't handle the 30+ boys, but somehow he feels some young SPL can???? I don't think so. "

 

I thin you hit the nail on the head there, Stosh. The troop is very dysfunctional right now. We had TLT last week, but it turned into a mess. All of th PLs think that they know what they are doing, and refused to listen to the SMs training. We even brought in the previous SM to lead the TLT, but he still couldn't reach them. We had a skills session in the m\last meeting, and when we asked the patrols to set up a tarp, they all just stared at us blankly. We went around to each, reteaching them the nessesary knots and techniques, but they prefered to just tie each other to poles.

 

I have been trying to recruit other scouts to my patrol, but the adults won't let me take the ones that I will actually let me train them, because they are the only good scouts in the other patrols. I ahve been trying the train the ones who will let me as time on campouts allows. I have staffed NYLT a few times, so I try to use those tools to help them develop as leaders (yes, EDGE does work for some, myself included).

 

Moosetracker, it is not so much that there are many special needs scouts in our area, but that our program is tailored to them. Rather then they being burned out by the program, other scouts tend to drop out because of lack of adventure. Many parents just drop of their kids as a hope that they will learn some values from us. Our adult leaders exemplify the idea of the Babysitter of America.

 

If I hadn't already invested almost 6 years into this troop, I would just look for a new one. But now I want to leave it better than I found it. I hope that the adult leaders will let me.

[moosetracker]

Ick... You sound like my son.. Normally I would be telling you to jump ship and find a working troop. But right now that isn't the thing to do.. Once your friend is done with being SPL, maybe it will be.. But, he has a serious responsibilty to this troop in his POR, and you should not desert him, but stay and help where you can..

 

My son is now 20 has his Eagle, and is staying on to help the troop.. Problem is after he got Eagle, the SM's that had the right vision have left, the most spectacular COR passed away, and our CC is very nice but too sweet.. The current SM is now in "cub scout" and "my son's come first", and can not delegate anything to the PLC or the ASM or the committee but is way to disorgainize to do everything himself (as if organization would allow anyone to do it all themselves), the current COR & CC have no backbone. Our old COR would have fired the SM a long time ago and made the best person for the job step up to plate, if he didn't work out he would have been fired too, until she had someone who was right for the job. Our troop would have never fallen into suce a dysfunctional unit on her watch.

 

My son keeps sticking around in hopes to "fix" the troop.. But if you don't have the right people in place to help and facilitate your efforts, you don't get anywhere. My husband & I keep trying to talk him into moving to a different troop. My husband is still at the troop also, mainly for one other boy who has not left the troop, and my son. He is between leaving to a different unit, and runninf for the SM position when it comes up for vote (my son & husband at least got the committee to except a yearly vote for all adult troop positions). My son is thinking to run also, but he will not be 21 by then, and my husband would be temp SM until his 21st BD, but I don't know if someone so young would be considered. But, my husband has enough with being the Advancement Chair for the district, if he took it on, he would delegate to all the ASM's, SPL & PL's and shift most of the work to them.

 

You & your friend sound very responsible and knowledgable.. Either this troop was not so dysfunctional when you started and you got to first class under good leadership, or your OA is very good and was able to give you the training your troop did not.. I would assume that being elected as Chapter Cheif, you are truely a responsible young man and that your point of view is not one-sided as to "we are great and they are not." Although some of your viewpoint may be slightly skewed.

 

Fact is I will tell you what I tell my son, you need someone in the adult "authoritative" position, that has the right vision as to what a functioning troop is.. SM, COR, CC.. And have the courage and conviction to act on it and carry it through. If they can advocate for you boys, and will run interferance and give you your lead, you boys can do wonderful things. But if you have no one in your unit to do so.. It is just alot of disappointment and heartache for you.. Hopefully you see the wisdom to move to a better troop, rather then give up all together.

 

I agree with what Stosh is telling you. Problem is, without at least one adult leader in an authoritave position who is making a stance with you. Or minus them, but with the backing of the majority of boys who make a stance and demand change, I don't know how you can make that change.

 

As stated your friend with the POR of SPL can not make the jump to a different troop. But that may be your best solution when he is done.. But then I advocate for jumping troops quicker then other people.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Yeah, you're describing something of a mess.

 

We talk about "servant leadership" here. Allow me to use a different term: We're there to support our brothers. Leadership takes on scut work to do the planning, to do the preparing, to do the record-keeping, so the activities for the rest can be FUN.

 

The SPL and you can be agents of change, but your SM and his assistants, as well as the Committee Chair and the Chartered Partner, have to be on board. You're going to have to eat this buffalo one bite at a time.

 

Use your access in the Chapter and Lodge. Ask to talk to your District Commissioner. See if you can arrange a visit by him and your Unit Commissioner to a couple meetings and a campout. If the troop functions like you write, it'll show, and there will be opportunities to talk.

 

In the meantime, be the SPL's firm ally. Be his sounding board, away from the meetings. Help him in any way you can. If, after he completes his term, you see a desire to change, be there again for the next guy. (That's creating support for the top guy). If you see heels digging in and no desire for change, then look at other Troops, or Venturing Crews.

 

Good hunting.