Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?

[Scoutfish 16]

 

 

John, I disagree with this part, but for a different reason than BP.

 

They way I see it is this: If you look at all of what God had done, will do, and can do at his discression...I cannot imagone that anything we do as humans can or will offend him. He did give us total and complete free will.

 

Now, I do believe in God. Simple as that. But at teh same time, I think too many people take the bible in a sense that is too literal too mant times. Problem is, the people of the time spoke Armerian ( Armeric) ( I guess I spelled that right). THis was transleated from time to time and to different languages and cultures.

 

Just look at modern language. Not every word can be translated still. In spanish, you have the leter "ch" which is not the same as simply putting the two letters together. Different sound and meaning totally. My point? Some things in the bible did not translate as simply as man wanted.

 

Then look at the Sabbath. Ooops! It's on Saturday. But how did it become a Sunday thing? Compromise > Constantine made a deal: Saturday was market day and would be too hard to changeamong his people, so let's use Sunday instead.

 

Kings used religion as a source of power for their reign over the people. Ole King Henry really wanted to divorce, but it was a big sin. What to do? Create your own religion...just like that. Except that this one allows divorce.

 

So now you can divore your wife, behead her, and still hold the golden ticket of God's graces while still holding power over the people.

 

 

Soas the bible says: Do unto others as you would have them do upon yourself. Better stated in modern language as:

 

"Give people the same rights and respect that you think you deserve yourself"

 

The bible also says we shouldn't judge, should turn the other cheek and that we should love one another.

 

Yet, I cannot think of one organized religion that accomplishes that by saying "Either our God or hell!"

 

Sure , you could believe that, but as soon as you preach it, you are against your own God's wishes right?

 

Then we judge left and right. We even decide that committing this sin isn't so bad as that other sin, yet a sin is a sin. The bible did not rank them in severity. The bible didn't say : " Pick the best 7 out of ten."

 

So anyways, my whole poiint is. we can not, nor do we have the right as mere human to say that god is upset with, or is offended by "X".

 

 

In this case "X:"is sombody trying to create a worship where one did not exist before. No, it's not perfect, but it's not total apathy towards trying either.

 

Now, again, I do not believe we as human have the right to say that God is okay with, subscribes to or approves of us prroclaiming what he trhinks.

 

That goes against the whole "Judge not" thing.

 

 

Besides.......whatever God originally said was wrote down by mankind. And we know that mankind ain't that reliable when it comes to unbiased facts.

[Scoutfish 16]

Oh, by the way...I do not mean any of what I said ina mean or condescending way.

 

Again, it was just MY view on it. MINE!

 

I know that each of you have your own personal beliefs.

 

I COMPLETELY RESPECT that. I stand up and defend your right to have them. (I defend your right to have them even though I may not agree with them wether partially, or wholely.

 

Thing is, nothing you do in the form of worship offends me, hurts me or lessens anything I believe.

 

Short of physical stuff ( like abduction or sacrifices) will affect me.

 

I will no more say your religion is wrong that your choice of vehisle make or favorite color, kind of movie, or music.

 

It's your personal choice.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I hoped this thread would provide insight, eh?

 

By asserting publicly that your religion is the one true way and you won't comingle, educate yourself and be firm enough in your own beliefs to know that by hearing others you aren't going to be converted -- you're condemning your fellow scouts who believe differently and consider then 2nd class citizens.

 

I think yeh missed the point, jhankins, and are accidentally slippin' into doing the same thing that you are accusing others of.

 

Many, most religions do assert that they are the "one true way", eh? That's not being judgmental so much as it is being honest and true to one's own faith.

 

I don't think anybody's opposed to education or worried about being converted, they're worried about being dishonest or being a poor example.

 

And da thing is, when we get down on folks who are being honest about their beliefs and accuse 'em of not adhering to the 12th point of the Scout Law by treating others as 2nd Class citizens, we're the ones who aren't respecting their beliefs and treating them as second class citizens.

 

Dat's why I brought this up, eh? I think these kinds of "services" can be quite a minefield, and do more damage than good in a lot of cases. Been there, seen that, got da T-shirt. I was just curious what others were seeing or experiencin'.

 

I'm sorta of the same mind as bacchus, eh? I think real respect is better engendered by attending each others real worship services, much as we all do for weddings and funerals.

 

(Added: Let's all be careful to keep this a scouting program thread, and move da substantive theology discussion over to Issues & Politics.)

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[BadenP 93]

Beav

 

Your argument is treading water at best, you seem to want your cake and eat it too,can't happen here dude, you are either one school of thought or the other.

 

As far as your advice at the end it would be nice if you heeded it yourself, you start out punching and hostile, spouting your own version of theology and worship then accuse others of taking it too deep into theolology when you and John have already done so. Too little too late Beav, you may be able to argue legal matters but your theology leaves a lot to be desired, no offense intended.

[Scoutfish 16]

You know what?

 

I just had a complete change of opinion!

 

"Generic Nondenominational Worship Services - yea or nay?"

 

I say NAY! Matter of fact - I'm thinking that - unless all your scouts are of the same religion and denomination - you should just do away with the Scout's Own and/or any and all worship services.

 

I do not think that excluding or looking down on others would be considered reverent.

 

See, what just got me thinking ( since I posted my last post) was something that was in the newspapers a week or so ago. Here in NC, in New Hanover county to be exact, a buisnesses put up signs that said "...one Nation, indivisible...", and left it at that.

 

Now you know the editorials and local pages in the newspapers just lit up like the opening bell at the NY stock exchange.

 

Everybody thought it was meant as an attempt to remove God out of the pledge because somebody was atheist or such. But somebody stopped and took time to ask the sign's owner what he meant. Turns out he's a religious guy with a greater than oneself perspective:

 

The guy said ( and I'm loosely qouting as I don't have the article in front of me) That he just emphasised what the original pledge ( written by a Baptist preacher mind you) said.

 

"One nation, INDIVISIBLE..." It wasn't about adding God or removing God. It was about a nation united and standing up for itself and ALL it's people. People looking out for their fellow countrymen regardless of faith, lack of, or background.

 

It was about being patriotic and proud of your country. That's all. Simple as that.

 

Then sometime down the road....many years later, somebody added God to it. And while it was done with the greatest of great intentions.... in actuality, it has ben a source of division in this nation ever since it was added. Religious vs Atheist. This religion against that. Predjudiced and hate crimes to no end.

 

All because of ones personal faith and convictions.

 

You know..he had a good point you can't argue. Wether this country was founded on religion or lack of isn't the point. The only point is that this country was set up to allow EVERYBODY equal oppertunity to do as they chose as long as it didn't infringe on others.

 

And I think he's right! I will not lose my faith or convictions just because somebody was to remove a single word. My faith isn't that fragile or simple.

 

Matter of fact, people can laugh, mock and ridicule my beliefs. Doesn't matter to me as my beliefs will not change..

 

So, while not exactly the same thing as Scout's Own or worship services...I can see where it has the same effect as having that one word in the Pledge of Allegiance has.

 

Instead of bring anybody together as was probabbly designed with the best of intentions..it has had the opposite effect.

 

Especially here in the forums. Sure, no real physical fighting, but turmoil just the same.

 

Instead of a S O or worship service there should be a 30 minute or 1 hour free time for all to do as they wish, if they wish to.

 

Edited because my big fingers hit too many keys at a time! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, BadenP, none taken. I enjoy talkin' (actually, mostly listenin') to lots of different folks about theology. Everybody from a local Rabbi to a Jesuit attorney who I do lunch with once a month. I know da things I don't know, and I'm comfortable in my own unsophisticated faith.

 

you are either one school of thought or the other.

 

Yah, lots of folks think that. I've never been quite that black and white, eh? I think there's a balance. Yeh don't have to compromise your own beliefs, but yeh can moderate your own actions and interactions with others. So chalk me up as "disagree."

 

For this thread I think it's necessary for everyone to share their faith perspective in order for us all to understand the issues. I just didn't want it to become a debate about theology. Those can be fun, too, eh? But they're best spun off so that this thread can keep to somewhat of a focus on what makes sense for a scouting context, or how different scouters approach da issue in their own troops and districts.

 

Beavah

 

[Austinole 43]

Yay. It shows respect for everyone's belief. It doesn't make judgements as to winners and losers. That is up to the individual.

[DeaconLance 35]

Nay. Arrangements for seperate services for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Mormons, etc. should be made as at National Jamboree.

[Trevorum 24]

Deacon, what about the three boys in the troop who are Buddhist, the twin brothers who are Hindu, the Islamic kid, and the fellow whose family you think might be Wiccan but you've never asked? What about those scouts while the rest of the troop is off at Protestant, Catholic and Jewish services?

[DeaconLance 35]

They should be accomodated if possible but if they cannot the majority should not be denied their faith's service.

[Gags 10]

Scoutfish - As "fate" would have it, I just read an interesting article as to the source of the "under God" addition to the Pledge. Seems it was taken from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address: http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/god-and-gettysburg

 

YiS,

 

Gags

[VigilEagle04 10]

From Scoutfish: Soas the bible says: Do unto others as you would have them do upon yourself. Better stated in modern language as:

 

"Give people the same rights and respect that you think you deserve yourself"

 

That is the key point I have used in many of my vespers services for scouts. I don't do them all the time, but one of my fields of study is religion, and I'm talking all of them.

 

The Golden Rule is something that is absolutely great to use for a non-denom service that can reach everyone. Every religion has that underlying theme, it is the commonality between them all. Focus on that, focus on stories about that, focus on how that relates to the Scouting Way, and you have a great basis for a non-denom service.

 

If your council or event is big enough to host different services for different people, cool, go for it. But if not, you run the risk of alienating members, and possibly losing them, if you don't focus on how to handle a proper Scouts Own service.

[Horizon 97]

I was asked to lead the service at summer camp one year. I treated it more like a one-hour Scoutmaster's minute, and I did not treat it as worship.

 

I opened with a reading from the Good Book..pause... The Boy Scout Handbook (good for a laugh). I then read what the Handbook had to say about Reverent.

 

From there I talked about the conflict I had with Reverent and my own faith - my desire to bring everyone to Christ, while also showing respect for the faith of others. I read off the listing of Religious awards recognized by the BSA.

 

I then went into the history of religious wars, and wars justified due to religion - and how that was against the concept of being reverent.

 

I discussed the writings of Seton, who examined the faith of the Native Americans and who compared the core tenets of their faith with that of the Jewish and Christian faith.

 

I talked about how most religions have a concept of introspection and challenge in the wilderness, and that the Scouts should use a moment at summer camp to try the same.

 

I gave a moment for silent prayer for all in accordance with their own faith, and then closed the event.

 

It worked. I had fervent, evangelical Christians come speak with me. I was cornered later at the camp by a Jewish leader who thanked me for providing a moment in the woods where he did not feel ostracized for his faith.

 

Would I do this every week? No. But once per summer, a joint faith moment in the woods can help with Reverence IMHO.

[acco40 95]

Horizon - well said. Now who really believes that SoCal is just a bunch of fruitcakes?

[qwazse 4345]

Count me as "yea" even though I tend to just stick with our troop's meditations at summer camp. Those wind up being some derivative of Scouts Own. If I'm doing it, I have the Chaplain's Aid pick something from New Testament & Psalms.

 

I think the point is to get the kids to set aside time. So longer moments of silence and less preaching and singing is a good idea. The real goal is to model this: if you're out on a day of worship, don't let devotion to your creator slip away.

 

Sure Scout's Own is watered down, and if there isn't a merciful and loving God watching over these boys, it's pointless. On the other hand, if you think the higher being that you believe in might knock on some kid's heart if offered a moment of time -- even during a theologically vague service where time is the only thing sacrificed -- it might be worth that time.

 

On the other hand, if you're afraid some lesser being may invade the kid's soul in that moment of theological ambiguity, I suggest you look up a less wimpy god.