Finding a new CO?

[David CO 1783]

Chicken or the egg?

 

I am a little surprised to hear this level of anger directed at the CO. I can't help but wonder. Is this anger the result of the CO dropping a unit, or the cause of it?

 

My Brother Knight, Eagle 92, is absolutely right. Most relationships with parochial schools and Knights of Columbus councils are more than amicable.

 

I might add that these relationships are not accidental. They are carefully forged and nurtured.

 

I wish that the relationships between CO's and their Scout units could always be so amicable.

 

But Catholic schools do not have the volunteers for their basketball teams threatening to shop for another school and take the team name, mascot, colors, uniforms, "history", trophies, and equipment with them.

 

Even if, in the worst case, if the team ceases to exist, the school retains these things. It is not just the team's history, it's the school's history.

 

Scout leaders can be very unusual in this regard. They KNOW that the CO owns the unit. They KNOW that a Scout unit is a program of the CO and not a seperate entity. But they often FEEL otherwise.

 

Scout leaders express these FEELINGS to the CO. The CO doesn't like it. The CO drops the unit.

 

Chicken or the egg?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crossramwedge 10]

I am going to put my two cents in here. If the IH of our CO walked up to me (CC/COR)and told me that He wanted to move a different direction and needed to dissolve the CO/ Troop relationship it would be my duty as CO/CC to relay that to the troop. I would Ask the IH if he would be willing to transfer all said equipment, Troop Unit number and accounts over to a new CO if one could be found in a reasonable amount of time. If not I would also relay that to the troop. When this happens the Troop( in my opinion) has been released from any obligation to the CO and has the right as individual leaders and parents to go CO shopping. They had been released from their obligations to the CO. The CO ceased "Owning" them and has no right to tell a Group of people wether they have the right to form a BSA Troop. All the CO can do is keep the unit number for the remainder of the charter and confiscate all money and equipment if they have a mind to do so. They cannnot keep a group of people from starting a new scout troop.

[SSScout 1615]

Local Baptist church chartered a successful Cub Pack. Well known in District, at Roundtable. I knew CM. (he later became UC).

New Pastor. Story from my friend the CM, at next RT: "he doesn't want a CubPack, he wants to do Awana." So be it. Cub Pack given 3 months notice to NOT MEET IN THE CHURCH ANYMORE!. Pack leadership goes "CO shopping", personal contacts, RT announcements, Commish phone tag, DEs burn up the email.

Local Lions club becomes new CO, with proviso that the Pack may move again if they find a new home "with amenities" (Lions Club is admittedly a "CO of convenience", so CP meets in the VFD hall that the Lions Club meets in.

Result: Boys remain Cub Scouts.

[mds3d 90]

Here is the way this should work, and this has been described before...

 

1. CO tells troop they no longer want to sponsor a Troop.

2. Troop asks CO what is to be done with Equipment and Funds.

3. With or without their stuff, all of the leadership moves themselves to another CO and forms a "new" troop.

---This last one has several options depending on #2. CO says - You can't have your stuff. Fine, get new stuff. CO says you can have the stuff but not the money, or just all of it. CO may require they approve the new CO before transfering.

 

If the CO is willing to help you find a new CO that they are willing to let you go to with your number, stuff, and money, that is all well and good. However, this is not the way it always works out. Often a CO releases a troop under not so good circumstances, or the CO is releasing the troop because they no longer care anything about that program.

 

This is why I tell troops that do not have an intimate relationship with their CO (as some troops do), then the troop should have as few assets as possible at the time of recharter. Try not to have very much money at one time, and try to have as little stuff as possible.

[Eagle92 110]

In reference to equipment and money. We had a troop fold and merge into ours. The Old CO wanted all the money in the account after they left. Since the old CO didn't want the equipment, they told the troop leadership to sell it and give them the money. This money was earned by the scouts not given to them by the CO, and was mostly in scout accoutns. Long story short, the folding troop decided to not only used the money in the scout acounts to pay for sumemr camp for all the boys, whoever didn't have the full amount in their account had the difference paid for by the troop. Also the troop paid the transfer fees for everyone to join our troop before turnignover the money to the old CO. And all receipts for their recent expenditures were turned it as well.

 

As for the equipment, which was almost brand new(less than a year or two old) my troop bought all of it for about $50. Again the troop used their own resources to but it and had no help form the CO.

 

Again all the money left in the troop account was turned into the CO. They did get some, but not as much as they though they would get. they wer a paper only CO and for whatever reason when they found out how much money was int he troop's account, they wanted it.

 

 

[David CO 1783]

Question to forum moderators. Are you aware of any other CO/IH's or former CO/IH's on the forum?

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

While the unit is owned by the CO, and the CO, not the council, is responsible for dealing with any financial, or equipment, issues that arise, the CO can not just pocket the unit's money. The Co has promised, as part of it's responsibilities on being approved as a CO, that the money and equipment will be used for SCOUTING.

 

From the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, 2007 printing -

 

 

"All money raised by or received for the benefit of a unit or local council and all property acquired by a unit or local council shall be deemed to be received or acquired solely for the benefit of Scouting as interpreted and promoted by the Boy Scouts of America."

 

and

 

"Unit Obligations - In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local council, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organization or the chartered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

 

Eagle92, using the money in the unit accounts for the boys, and selling the equipment to your Troop was a good way to use these things for the Scouting program, but I am surprised, given the rules of the BSA above, that your DE allowed the old CO to simply pocket the left over money.

 

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

'nut,

 

Don't know where the DE was when this happened. BUT I can tell you as an ex-DE I was never told about this clause until recently, as in many years after I was a DE. While the CO did get some money, it wasn't as much as they thought they were getting.

 

This is very interestign in that we have a unit that has been out of existance over 6 years now, and looks to have no hope of restarting. BUT that church has all of the equipment, including brightly colored equipment trailer, canoe trailer, canoes.

[ScoutNut 147]

David stated - "But Catholic schools do not have the volunteers for their basketball teams threatening to shop for another school and take the team name, mascot, colors, uniforms, "history", trophies, and equipment with them.

 

Even if, in the worst case, if the team ceases to exist, the school retains these things. It is not just the team's history, it's the school's history."

 

This is not "chicken or egg", this is apples and oranges.

 

A Scouting unit is NOT a sports team.

 

In the Catholic schools that my children attended sports teams were considered school extracurricular activities. Scouting was not considered a school activity of any kind.

 

Where, in any of the posting on this thread, did anyone state they "THREATENED" their Charter Orgs?

 

These postings have ALL been about Charter Organizations who have TOLD THEIR BSA UNITS they did NOT WANT TO BE CO's ANY MORE, and would NOT be seeking a re-charter with BSA. None of the units discussed here just woke up one morning and decided to take their stuff and go "shopping" for someone new. In NONE of the cases discussed here was this the UNITS idea!

 

I really do not understand what your problem is.

 

 

BTW - as for a Catholic basketball team ceasing to exist - we had a local parish close it's school. They had a BIG sports program. The families on the basketball, and softball, teams joined the town park district leagues as a group. They had new team names, but they kept their teams together, and kept playing.

 

 

[David CO 1783]

I have noticed a general trend in the behavior of institutions in regard to their ownership/sponsorship of youth programs. This trend is broad-based and does not apply only to Scouting.

 

One example of this trend involves schools and PTA's. Many schools are dropping their PTA's (an independent group) and replacing them with PTO's that are owned and controlled by the schools.

 

Likewise, many Park Districts seem to be dropping Little League Baseball (an independent group) in favor of in-house leagues.

 

SSScout posted a very good example of this with a Church based CO.

 

Some in my own CO, Knights of Columbus, which has always supported Scouting, feel that we should be using our resourses to promote our own in-house youth group.

 

If my experiences and observations are merely isolated occurances, you can ignore them, but I don't think they are. I think they're a trend.

 

I think unit leaders are clammering for greater autonomy from the CO's at the same time as CO's are demanding greater control and ownership of ALL their auxilliary programs.

 

Nowhere is this better demonstrated than in the practice of CO shopping.

 

Keep this in mind. IH's talk to each other. Some may even read this message board. Some may even copy and forward your posts.

[ScoutNut 147]

I repeat - no where on this thread did anyone state their unit, or any unit they knew of, just up and decided one day, that they wanted a "shop" for new CO.

 

I fail to see where this translates to a "practice of CO shopping"!

 

BTW - I would be happy to email this thread to the CO of our Pack and Troop. Why would you think they would have a problem with anything I have posted?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CNYScouter 46]

HAd a chance to chat with my friend this weekend about this at a Crew event.

 

No CO shopping with these units, the current CO has said they no longer wish to charter the units.

The current CO does not want the equipment, one of the issues they have is they dont want to store the units equipment in the church any longer.

 

This came about when in the beginning of March the units went to get the charter signed by the IH.

The IH said they wanted to look it over before signing.

 

When 3 weeks went by the IH finally said they wanted to bring it to the Church Exec board, which was meeting later that week, before signing.

 

This board meeting was canceled and the units were told that the charters would be discussed at the next scheduled meeting the end of May.

 

This is all stemming from a new IH last year; they dont like Scouts and have said so.

 

After some phane calls it seems the new exec board of the church isnt interested in having the units any longer either.

 

I dont see why the current CO would put any effort to find a new CO for these units; they dont want to charter them anymore and dont really care where they go as long as they go.

 

My friends unit has decided if they want a good Co for the unit they better do it themsselves rather than count a DE that doesn't seem to have any idea on where to go.

 

 

 

 

[David CO 1783]

ScoutNut,

 

Please understand this. None of my comments are about you. I would like to have a discussion with you, but not about you.

 

Likewise, it's not about me. I would like you to have a discussion with me, but not about me.

 

We all, from time to time, use our personal observations and experiences to illustrate a point. I have enjoyed the stories others have related, and I hope they contiue to do so. They are both fun and informative.

 

While personal stories can illustrate a point, they cannot prove it. Nor can attacking a story disprove the point it illustrates.

 

In either case, the point is about Scouting. It isn't about you, and it isn't about me.

 

 

[Scoutfish 16]

David,

 

Somewhere you got on a different page. Nobody that I have seen so far , has said anything about leaving the CO.

 

In every instance mentioned, the CO was the one who dropped the unit. Not vice versa.

 

Now, the CO might decide to keep the number, but the scouts and leaders are free to do what they want. The CO disbanded any ties or relationships to them.

 

Never was it sauid that the leaders were just tird of teh Co, had a disagreement with the Co or wanted to follow a different program than the Co.

 

THe CO decided ( for some reason) that chartering a scout unit was no longer worthwhile. It may be justified, it may be worthwhile or it may be simple lack of interest.

 

But one thing is clear..the scouts and leaders are free to do as they wish.

[Eagle92 110]

David,

You are correct in that some COs are looking to use in house programs, i.e Columbian Squires, CYOs etc. In my unit growing up,that happened twice. We were told that that we needed to move on b/c they were bringin in their own program. Funny thing was that once the IH who asked us to leave had been transferred, the new IH came in and started... a scout troop and pack.

 

But I must disagree with COs exerting more control, they don't want to. In the cases I've dealt with, they simply don't want to exert the control that they already have. Best example was the church that dropped the pack b/c they did not want homosexual leaders in the pack. I kept reminding them that "The IH or COR approves all leaders" ( bold for emphasis)over and over again,a s well as the fact that the CO owns the pack and can do anything they want within BSA regs, but still they did not want to exert that control.