mmhardy Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Tombitt, This topic has been a hot one of mine. I have personal experience of being thankful for several of my boys having a cell phone during a high adventure trip. The ability to coordinate, get news, and communicate with others in the group not in the proximity are the reason for having them in a crisis situation. The BSA recognizes and includes the cell phone as part of an emergency kit. So does the Coast Guard. Monitor VHF 16 and youll pick up that the Coastys expect all watercraft to have a cell phone on board. Why the reluctance to cell phones by so many on this forum is beyond my comprehension. I guess it will take someone dying or an impact of a personal liability lawsuit that will point out that any Scout leader not having and allowing to posses this basic tool is negligent. Its a tool, I guess there are some Scouters who are too lazy to teach the proper courtesy of using it. Maybe BSA will wake up and include in the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stosh Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I guess I don't see it as a case of being lazy on the part of the Scouters. If one is out on open water, there are marine radios that are far more reliable in emergencies than a personal cell phone. I would trust the radio over the cell any day. Courtesy is not the issue, planning and coordination at an event, and emergency preparedness are vital parts of any expedition activity and if these plans are to be overlooked and instead, rely on unreliable cell phone usage, I'm sure the liability issues will be just as pronounced. While GPS units are very popular items like cell phones, I would much rather have a map, compass and skills to use them in the back country rather than relying on the batteries of a GPS unit. I don't see a problem with an adult or two having the phones as a BACKUP in an emergency situation, but to rely on it is nothing more than an invitation for disaster. Stosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 "He's quite independent, and we treat him very much like an adult. The question is why can't the scout leaders trust the kids?" Because your son is the exception, not the rule. Not all scouts are 14 year old Star Scouts behaving as responsible young adults, and the policy has to be fair and equitable. A few years ago at summer camp (75 miles from home), we were awakened at 1 am by the camp director who had a frantic parent on the phone poised to race to camp. Seems they had been out for the evening and when they got home, listened to an unintelligible series of grunts, static and partial sentences on the answering machine, but they did recognize it as their son. They tried to call him back, but he had it turned off to conserve battery. We woke up Scout, sleeping soundly, who said "No, I'm fine, I just called to say hello". Everyone at General Quarters in the middle of the night because of a #*&^#$#*$ cell phone!!! We, too, have lost homesick scouts due to cell phones. It used to be a payphone at the trading post, but they took that out (due to leader demand)...scouts were lined up every night after dinner, calling 1-800-COLLECT. Once they hear Mommy's voice, it's all over, and they either went home or cried themselves to sleep. And more than once, our SM got a "concerned" phone call from Mommy wanting to know why Billy was being mean to her little darling....first we heard of it. Quite frankly, when I am donating a week of vacation time in 100 degree heat, I don't need that crap from a helicopter parent. Your son may be responsible and courteous. Most are not. My own nieces and nephews show up at family gatherings and spend their time in the corner "texting" (or is it "tweeting" now ... sheesh) the whole time. At our last Eagle project, one scout was trying to assemble a picnic table with one hand and text with the other...a real safety hazard. And again this morning (as every morning), I was almost sideswiped by someone trying to operate a cell phone and a 3,000 pound weapon at the same time. Unlike you, MOST parents are not teaching responsibility, manners and common sense, so they ruin it for everyone else. Welcome to life. Sorry for the venting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisabob Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Presumably this "no cell phones" rule is not new. You've suggested that you asked the SM to make an exception in your son's case and he said no. He's 14 and Star, so that means he has been a boy scout for a while now. Why is this an issue right now? Has something changed that makes you feel he needs a cell phone now, more than in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA_Scouter Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I can neither confirm nor deny the use of cell phones in my troop. Example: We do a 'play' outing at the local gym. Reserve the basketball court and we run drills for a bit then play a full court game for a while. During drills, ol' Jeremy is texting somebody, not paying attention, and WHAM bball hits him on the side of the head. No damage just the normal confused look I get out of him... ;-) Misuse of cell phone is dangerous, yes? I am fighting a losing battle though. I can't say it enough times but I still see the phones at meetings, however, I don't really see the scouts using them, so maybe its not as big a problem as I perceive. I've even thought of EMBRACING their use, mostly for task lists, reminders, etc. Just thinking about it though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Here is a thought, if the cell phone is to be used in an Emergency only, have your son take his phone. If he is to use it in an emergency only, the only time a leader will see it is in the midst of the emergency and then the leader will be glad someone has a phone. As far as you letting him know what is going on, that you will have to leave to the adults in the troop, either you trust them with your son, or you don't. Most troops I know travel with some adult with a black berry or similar device and those guys love to watch weather, if not, I made Eagle in 1969 and most of use lived through the experience of youth without cell phones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Re-reading what I posted, and pondering what OGE said (we must be about the same vintage, Eagle '70)...perhaps it's not the cell phones, per se...perhaps my beef is with helicopter parents who give their kids everything they want without conditions, and can't cut the apron strings. I recently took my sister along on an out-of-state trip to visit aged relatives...I was ASTOUNDED at the number of times her cell phone rang on a 7 hour drive...21 yo college student daughter calling about every 30 minutes...(where's my keys, where's my English book, I'm stuck in traffic, I'm eating lunch now, what time does Dad get home, what should I have for supper, I'm going to work now...yada, yada, yada!) ... drove me berserk!!! My boys are both grown and gone, and I don't hear from them up to a week at a time (live in the same city, too!). I consider that NORMAL. Is it just me??? I HATE IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombitt Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Lisabob - I didn't ask the SM to make an exception for my son. The issue is that the policy (which has only been verbal) has been ignored by the troop, most boys carry cell phones with them but hide them, and use them out of sight of leaders. I suggested that the SM change the policy to "OK to carry, but must remain off", and enforce it better. We had a situation this weekend where the SM heard a boy was using his phone, asked the scouts who had one, and two honest scouts, including my son admitted they had them. He confiscated. The other scouts lied (including the SPL and sons of other scout leaders on site). The result was the honest scouts - who had not been using their phones frivolously - were punished. The current policy is not working. In addition, I have decided as a parent to disregard the policy, and I've allowed my son to carry. He has never abused that privilege. Just last week, however, my son was "caught" using his phone after a regular scout meeting was completely over - he was calling to ensure that one of us was picking him up from the meeting. The SM yelled at him to put away the phone. This level of "no tolerance" and techno-avoidance is ludicrous, in my opinion. I totally understand the issue with abuse of cell phones. But, scoutldr, fair and equitable does not mean you treat all scouts as 11-year olds who want their mothers. Scouting is about growing up. Scouts learn skills, learn responsibilities, and earn privileges, like using a knife (responsibly), using an axe (responsibly). We don't just throw these things at young scouts. We also don't equitably say no scouts can use these tools, and cover our eyes to a tool that these kids need to learn to use responsibly. This is a hard one, and I respect that. But scouting can't ignore this part of a growing man's life. Scoutldr, think about that jerk with the cell phone in the car who almost sideswiped you. In the future, that's the scout who was not allowed to use his phone, or who used it only when the leader wasn't looking. Can scouting have a role here? I think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I grew up in the era when cell phones were not common and had no problems with camping. Yes we had one or two cell phones with leaders, usually if the doc came, btu otherwise no problems. I personally don't see the need for YOUTH to carry them. Especially the newer ones that have games, music, and internet access. Now this past weekend we did have a few adults with them on the entire time. grant you they were FD and PD folks who do get callouts. The neat thing is that they do have internet access and were able to keep up with the weather reports. THAT should be an adult problem INHO as the youth should be running program. If you are uncomfortable with the troop policy, talk to the SM about a compromise, but be prepared to either accept the troop's policy or look for a new troop. The compromise I have is one I picked up from the UK's Duke of Edinburough (sp) [DofE] Award. For that award, the youth must do a trek without ANY adult supervision for aspecified period of time based upon the award level. For safety reasons a cell phone is packed in a waterproof bag That is sealed with tape and initialed by a leader at the start if memory serves. Unless there is an emergency, if the seal is broken, you do not complete trek and start all over. Again I personally don't see the need for the cellphone, but this may be a compromise solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Because your son is the exception, not the rule. Not all scouts are 14 year old Star Scouts behaving as responsible young adults, and the policy has to be fair and equitable. Exactly. And odds are your son really isn't da exception anyways. Or won't be, when he gets a girlfriend and just has to text her every 30 minutes. Adult leaders get to choose how they spend their volunteer time, eh? A few might try to spend it teachin' da youth phone courtesy, but honestly they aren't goin' to make a dent if parents, friends and school aren't reinforcin' it da other 95% of the youth's time. Mostly, I reckon adult leaders in scoutin' are there for teachin' Scouting. Trying to teach 30 or more kids of different ages phone courtesy isn't their idea of a fun use of their free time. And since it's their time, they get to choose. BTW, scoutldr's description of cell phones disruptin' camp is far from an isolated incident. Check out this one: http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0904&L=SCOUTS-L&P=R8818 Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 "I have decided as a parent to disregard the policy, and I've allowed my son to carry" Good thing we're not talking about handguns.;-) And how does that lesson fit in with the BSA mission to teach young people to "make ethical decisions over their lifetime"? If you don't agree with a law, you can just ignore it? I don't disagree that the SM's policy may be overkill...but he IS the SM. Hmmm...here's an idea...how about an "Electronics Chip" or "Cellphone Chip" (a la Totin Chip)...3 corners gone and you lose your Totin' privileges. Compromise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcnphkr Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I personally don't care if a scout carries a cell phone as long as I never have to hear it ring or any of the following: "Someone took my cell phone!", "I'm calling my parental unit and telling!", "I have to text my girlfriend!"(This message has been edited by jet526) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I had exactly this conversation with two parents my first summer as SM. Their son had taken his cell phone to summer camp despite a troop rule against it. He was using his "power" to award and withhold phone calls to get other guys to do his bidding. Ultimately he and another guy got into a fight over using the phone. When we met with the kid's parents' their defense was just as you have said "we want him to have a phone for emergencies." So precisely how will that work? Your son is a camp and trips and sprains an ankle. Who does he call, you? You're four hours away. 911? Is your son aware of the agreement the camp has with the local EMS that EMS waits is to be met at the front gate by an escort who will tell them where on the 1300 acre camp the emergency is located? Does he know the camp well enough to direct help to his location? Does the EMS operator know the camp well enough to know what he's talking about? On the other hand, if your son is following what he has been trained to do, he will have a buddy who can either help him or go get help. There will be mutiple layers of people trained in local emergency protocol who will provide the help he needs. Do you really think the phone company can triangulate his location in the same time the camp medical can get there? I don't really think it works the way it does on CSI. While I'm sure it happens, I have never had a Scout use a cell phone for anything that even resembled an emergency situation. I have had boys get in fights over cell phones, protracted arguments between families spilling over to troop meetings over who is to pay for damaged phones, hours wasted with boys wandering camp in tears looking for lost phones, Scouts texting their girl friends requesting various "favors" when they get home and one Scout almost arrested for using his cell phone at the shower house and having another Scout accuse him of taking photos of other boys while in the shower. There is a pretty clear risk and reward equation for all this. Sounds like your son's Scoutmaster has run the math. Give the man a break and support his judgement. My question for you is this: are you listening to the vast majority of Scouters here who support your SM, or are you using this as an exercise to sharpen your arguement with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombitt Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Twocubdad, I'm listening. I'm Eagle 1975. I've been a cubmaster, and I suspect I'll eventually become a scoutmaster. I did the Wilderness Survival merit badge when it was brand new - we took a bunch of live chickens, some matches, and a few sheath knives into the woods, killed and cooked the chickens (imagine that with sheath knives only), and safely survived an unexpected severe Oklahoma thunderstorm without tents or high-tech comm gear. I'm also a technology expert, I advise major companies about new technologies, and I help our school district with their technology plan. I'm saying this because I can see both sides of this. What leans me the one direction is that I really believe in building self-reliance and responsibility in young men. On the other hand, scouting can't take on all the responsibility to do that - and a lot of parents just abdicate that role. If scouting tells a 14-year old (or older) young man that they can't trust him with a cell phone, period, that's a shame. I'd like to find a compromise solution. I like the Totin' Chip idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmhardy Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 What if, what if, what if, I got along fine in 1972, and lived, blaa, blaa, etc. Ladies and gentlemen its 2009. The BSA needs to incorporate the proper use of some of this technology if they are going to be viable and meaningful to todays parents and youth. Crack open a Scout manual from 1950s and see if things have changed a bit. There are about a dozen merit badges dealing with agriculture that are gone. Does any unit still cook over an open fire at Scout camp? If the attitudes on this thread are prevalent then the world is passing the BSA by. Its core values and role in our society will be lost as its further marginalized by small issues like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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