Is there ANYTHING a scout is ALLOWED to do anymore ?!?!?

[Bob White]

Actually Dean I don't think many veteran leaders get frutrared by new leaders. I know personally I am very happpy to see new leaders join. Every good leader I have ever know was a new leader at some point in time.

 

What frustrates the good leaders I know are volunteers who refuse to use or refuse to follow the program regardless of how long they have been in the BSA.

 

It's the folks who ignore the program Methods that are so frustrtaing. They chase scouts from the program, and after being in the program a while you will see that they are easy to spot. It's like how a skilled commissioner can vistit a scout unit and know if they are healthy, heading the right way or wrong way, or likely to collapse if they do not change direction.

 

It doesn't take long to know if a person knows the program, follows the program, or is just doing what they want dressed up in a Scout uniform

 

A bad leader will chase more scouts out of the program then a good leader will ever meet.

 

A new leader that asks questions is never a frustration, a new or old leader who refuses to use the scouting program policies, procedures and Methiods as the source of the right answers is VERY annoying, and destined to foul up a perfectly good youth program. The longer they stay without changing the more scouts they will chase away.

 

Leaders who lack the character to play the game of Scouting by the rules of scouting simply get in the way of the volunteers who care about the youth and the goals of Scouting.

 

Scouts do not quit good Scouting units, and good leaders do not deliver bad programs.

 

You look through the many unit problems you will find in the years that this forum has been operating, you will notice that no one ever posted a problem that started with "we followed the program and it didn't work". That's because the program works just fine, when you follow it the way it is designed to work.

 

If this forum was about peole wanting to learn the scouting program or wanting to share the successes of the scout program it would be a much better and I think a more popular site. But a handful of posters quickly turned this into a place to whine and moan about all the things wrong with scouting. And what is apparent is that what is wrong is that they refuse to learn or use the scouting program.

 

Not every boy was meant to be in scouting, neither is every adult.

 

Thank you by the way Dean for being willing to discuss this politely and calmly.

 

Happy Scouting,

BW

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Hmmmmm . . . 90 a year out of . . . what . .. over 1 million adults? Let's see. . . Carry the one . . . that's 0.009%. Boy that's an epidemic alright.

 

Oh yeah, I know the arguements . . . "if one boy . . ." That's the same sort of argument used for street corner cameras and every other fascist action which presumes bad behavior.

[fleetfootedfox]

Gold Winger said: "That's because the courts are a crooked as the government and the corporations."

 

When you said this, I knew the argument was a lost cause, but you asked for numbers, so I provided some. Now you minimize the numbers and accuse our leaders of being "fascist".

 

Scouting is all about citizenship. If you have so little respect for authority, I think you are missing the point entirely.

 

At any rate, clearly you have a point of view that is not going to be swayed by logic or facts, so I'm done. Thanks.

[Gold Winger]

That's because the numbers are insignificant. 0.009% is barely on the threshold of existence.

 

Scouting isn't "all about citizenship" it's about other stuff and "citizenship" in the US of A doesn't mean blind obedience to authority, that's for other countries. Citizenship means mainataining a healthy skepticism of the goverment.

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm not sure many good adult leaders get frustrated by others, period.

 

The same personality which has patience and good humor with kids is the same personality that demonstrates patience and good humor with adults. Courtesy and kindness aren't limited to those of a specific age or number of years service in Scoutin'.

 

Each lad comes to us with his own quirks and his own story. We have to take 'em as they come. Same with each adult. Sometimes adults aren't in the right position for their skills or personalities, true, just the way some lads can shine as Quartermaster when they stumbled as SPL.

 

The best sort of scouter works with each as they come, and helps each find a niche and develop. The worst sort complains about how lousy some/most kids or adults are these days.

 

Now, it's true, there are a few truly bad eggs. Happily, as GoldWinger points out, they are very rare.

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutMomSD]

okay so this is my first post to the forums. Interesting thread.

 

I think the bottom line here is that it is about the boys and sometimes the difficult parents, paperwork and minutia crowd out this fact.

 

I was a Girl Scout in the late 60's, early 70's and I still look fondly at my badges and the pictures of our campouts. The meetings I dont remember too much, but I do remember the camp outs. My mom was a leader. Once we got snowed on in the spring and woke under a blanket of fresh snow. In the Southern California Mountains.

 

My daughter was in a troop that was more interested in shopping than camping and I was told flat out, if you want to camp YOU go and take the girls. Now she is in a new troop and they are all about service and the outdoors.

 

I think that sometimes you just have to think outside the box a bit and be reasonable. I would be more upset if my son pee'd on his leg than was with one adult. I would put it back on the person who asked and ask them what they would do.

 

Scouting must be fun, bottom line. And the adults must be fun too. As an "old mom" I appreciate and thoroughly enjoy watching the kids play and have fun and I like to act goofy with them.

 

Maybe its the district? Maybe its the old school mentality? The older I get the more I try to provide solutions if I bring up a criticism.

 

The packs NEED good hands on caring leaders, ones who will step up to the plate and good ones are few and far between. Ones who can creatively solve issues. And sell a lot of popcorn.

 

Thanks for listening.

[highcountry]

To the original poster, you are definitely not alone in how you feel. I think between the piles of rules BSA has (Some of little value) and some people's perception of what is or is not permisible (right or wrong) it also seems to me there are far too many don'ts or hoops to jump through sometimes. For the most part we can thank all the complainers, filers of suits, lawyers, media pressure and bad behavior before that has created teh need for BSA to protect itself with more and more proceedure, policy and rules to cover itself. I am certainly for being safe and trying to run a good program, have the scouts earn theri way, earn their acheivements, learn and grow and all teh goals we should be after. But there are many seemingly pointless rules or rules that are too far extreme in what can and can't be done, restrictive and time consuming busywork that go beyond safe or proper, they seem to go to the point of micromanaging details asuming all leaders must be idiots so we need to verify evey t is crossed the right way before people can proceed.

 

It is sad as was pointed out that simple harmless things that had a small bit of value are cause for worry now. The example of talking to a scout on a SM review and taking a walk in the woods briefly being off limits now due to Youth Protection policy (We can thank the molesters that brough this on). I have an ASM who can only take one scout to campouts with him even though he has seat belts to accomodate two, the reason....he has a pickup with a stick shift and bench seats and there is worry if he bumps a scouts leg when shifting is there going to be an issue. I have had some scouts that do a great job from time to time but I need to refrain from giving them a pat on the shoulder etc.

 

The list of skits and songs kids can't do at summer camps is way overboard, our boys started to sing the old classic "Great Green Gobs" at a summer camp not long ago and were told ewven it was not appropriate .....why ? So they are bored eith the lame skits and songs done at camp, no wondr most of the scouts in my troop have no interest in skits and songs with anything remotely funny and beyond kindergarden level, the material permissible is way below their age group.

 

We live in the mountains, our scouts were 5 year olds with cap guns climbing amongst rock hideouts playing cowbys and Indians, yet at 11 and older, at council, district and summer camps they need to take a climb safely course to be able to climb rocks shoulder high, they find this a joke.

 

The famous old Lazertag ban was also a joke, we simply did this as a non scout family event, same with paintball when we used to do it, no scout funds used. We only recently got a troop secretary (I did not have one for 2 years and those tasks fell on me and a few others) so we had to try and minimize our paperwork burden. We are also fortunate that we are far out from council so that gives us a little more freedom from being under the microscope. Our Council does not require local tour permits if you are in district, and with the cost of gas and difficulty getting parents to drivve we made all our campouts in district to eliminate teh tour permit paperwork and driving issues. The rights to logo issues etc are a hassle but again, nbeing distant we had patrols design neckers and t-shiert that were tastefull and local shops do them up, no approval hassles. I just found out who the scoutmaster was 3rd previous to me, and he never did fundraising apps either so it has been at least 20 yeas since our troop did one of those, we alaways have done the same fundraisers and they are not a problem so that is more un needed regulation we streamlined out of the program. I'm sure wwe violated more rules getting food donations for a concession we ran a few yars ago and a spaghetti dinner, but hey were well done, the boys made great money and the community was impressed, local business, many of whom we know personallly were overjoyed to assist the troop.

 

Bottom line, I'm sure we busted a few of BSA's rules here and there but we provided a safe program, one that has motivated and engaged the boys and help them grow as individuals and that is what we are after. I also understand the oat concepts of honest, trustworthy etc but at some point the drive to obey evey minute rule to the letter needs to be weighed vs common sense. In my opinion there are too many rules and some far too extreme and some of this does place more burden on the unit volunteers and can take some of the fun out of it for the boys.

[Bob White]

Highcountry

 

How are these Scouting issues?

 

I have an ASM who can only take one scout to campouts with him even though he has seat belts to accomodate two, the reason....he has a pickup with a stick shift and bench seats and there is worry if he bumps a scouts leg when shifting is there going to be an issue.

 

That's his choice as the driver it has nothingto do withany BSA rule!

 

" have had some scouts that do a great job from time to time but I need to refrain from giving them a pat on the shoulder etc."

 

No you don't. Show us anywhere in the BSA where you are prohibited from patting a scout on the shoulder!

 

"The list of skits and songs kids can't do at summer camps is way overboard"

 

No such list exists from the BSA!

 

"We live in the mountains, our scouts were 5 year olds with cap guns climbing amongst rock hideouts playing cowbys and Indians, yet at 11 and older, at council, district and summer camps they need to take a climb safely course to be able to climb rocks shoulder high, they find this a joke."

 

Certainly you must realize that safety rules cannot be written based on the each scouts childhood exerience but on the known hazards of the activity itself? This is a national program, how do you expect it to create safety programs based on the local topography?

 

"The famous old Lazertag ban was also a joke, we simply did this as a non scout family event, same with paintball when we used to do it, no scout funds used."

 

Where does the BSA say you can't do these things as a family? It just says that you cannot do them representing the BSA programs. Go ahead and do them if you like with family and friends just leave the image and name of scouting out of it. Why is that such a problem?

 

"Our Council does not require local tour permits if you are in district, and with the cost of gas and difficulty getting parents to drivve we made all our campouts in district to eliminate teh tour permit paperwork and driving issues."

 

The rights to logo issues etc are a hassle but again, nbeing distant we had patrols design neckers and t-shiert that were tastefull and local shops do them up, no approval hassles.

 

You seem very proud of the fact that you ignored the legal rights of the BSA to protect the use of their copyrighted properties. You just broke the rules but your vendor broke the law. You act as if it takes real skill, knowlegde, or character to ingore the law. Sorry that being trustworthy or obedient is such a hassle for you.

 

So the leaders before you broke the rules as well, you must be so proud to be carrying on such a tradition. I am sure the youth you are a role model for will someday share those same values within your community. Its a shame you are not more concerned about that.

 

The problems you list are not scouting issues, they are leadership issues that reflect the importance of picking people of good character on moral values to be scout leaders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hi ScoutMomSD! Welcome to da forums, eh? Thanks for takin' the time to contribute your first post.

 

I think you are quite right in your approach, and I reckon most scout leaders take a mature, adult, balanced view of these things. Perhaps especially in da hinterlands like highcountry suggests!

 

I reckon we all need to listen carefully to the voices of those reportin' poor practices in scoutin', and not be too quick to dismiss 'em. Folks who get all worried about bumping a lad's leg with a stickshift or patting a boy on the shoulder get that way for a reason, eh? They've been exposed to others in the BSA who get very hot and bothered about anything that may be interpreted as even a minor violation of law or policy or guidance, and respond simply by avoiding any similar situation altogether. Makin' Scoutin' in their units or councils poorer.

 

One might imagine someone readin' the last post decidin' not to ever use a scouting symbol or logo in a unit T-shirt or promotional item rather than tryin' to deal with the hassle and induced fear, eh? Especially someone unfamiliar with da topic or the law. And Scoutin' would be all the poorer for it, bein' less present in those communities. The views expressed might not be da real approach of the national organization, but the fear, uncertainty and doubt created still causes folks to change their practice to the detriment of Scouting.

 

We even go a bit overboard officially sometimes, eh? Like da NE Region letter which did indeed direct councils to exercise increased oversight and censorship of skits and songs, eh? That sort of thing gets used by those who get hot and bothered about such things to "ban" all sorts of campfire fun which has long been considered traditional and appropriate. That's been goin' on at many camps out that way, and we shouldn't dismiss that feedback lest we continue to make the same mistakes with our guidance and policies, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[ScoutMomSD]

some of these comments scare me, seriously.

 

"A punching contest is a typical guy thing. You punch your buddy in the deltoid and he puches you back in your deltoid. One punch at a time, carefully aimed. The first to flinch or cry "Hold, enough!" loses. It has nothing to do with Scouting, it is just something that boys used to do."

 

Can we back down a bit on the "typical guy thing" - especially as from what I see its primarily the moms who are shuttling the scouts here and there to activities and meetings,etc. If my son did this at school, he would be suspended. If he did it in a bar, he would probably be sued and/or arrested.

 

Also I commend HighCountry. And in a lot of ways I wish we lived like that, but we are in a mid to upper middle class suburb of a large metropolitan area. And there are scouts in New York City. Is a trip to Central Park any less of a great experience for boys than a wilderness experience (having done both myself).

 

If the boys think its fun and its safe and they are LEARNING lessons then its great.

[Mr. Boyce]

I believe typical guys should be allowed to do typical guy things, and the nannies should let them alone.

 

 

[skeptic]

Typical guy things, like all else, need to be monitored to make sure they stay "typical" and do not lead to poor decisions. That being said, we all did the arm punching back in "the day"; but we followed the unspoken code to stop when asked. Too much protection is just as bad as not enough; kids need to do kid things.

 

JMHO

[Mr. Boyce]

skeptic: True!

 

Recalling arm punching, the times I did it, it was mainly a lot of posturing, not much real pain. Maybe an arm sore for 10 minutes or so. The posturing and talk were the main things.

[Gold Winger]

" If my son did this at school, he would be suspended. If he did it in a bar, he would probably be sued and/or arrested."

 

This is a very sad statement on our society.

[shortridge]

"I have an ASM who can only take one scout to campouts with him even though he has seat belts to accomodate two, the reason....he has a pickup with a stick shift and bench seats and there is worry if he bumps a scouts leg when shifting is there going to be an issue."

 

Unless the lone Scout is the ASM's son, wouldn't this violate YP's prohibition on one-on-one contact?

 

Seems more cost-effective these days to put both ASM and Scout into another, larger multipassenger vehicle.