Scouts as Laborers

[woodie on surfari]

I need some help on a question.

 

Our committee chairman has suggested farming our boys out for (heavy) manual labor (i.e. construction site clean up, clearing land of debris, farm clean up) as a way to "earn" money for summer camp. My concern is that these activities are not appropriate Scout "fundraising" activites and that there could be liability issues (if one of the boys gets hurt and/or someone's personal property is damaged) since they are on private property and being "paid" for their "labor". I believe there are child labor laws to consider as well.

 

Any thoughts? Am I being too cautious?

[EagleInKY]

It's not out of the question, it depends upon the ability of your boys and whether it is approved by your CO and the council.

 

One concern I see is that you may be taking business away from people who actually do this for a living. If so, it may not be approved. Please read the back of the Money Earning Application to verify whether it is legitimate.

 

Our troop recently did road cleanup as a fundraiser. I know it sounds like a service project, but our state had given a grant to our county to get highways cleaned up. The county offered the funds to non-profit groups. They paid us $100 a mile (each side) to clean up the highway. In three weekends, we cleaned nearly 10 miles and earned close to a $1000.

[Lisabob]

How do the boys feel about this? I can't imagine this working "against their will." Having worked on a farm myself, I also can't imagine this working well as an individual effort where a couple of boys got "hired" to work certain hours - it would have to be a supervised group effort because, quite frankly, other people working on the farm aren't going to have the time or desire to make sure your boys are safe and efficient while mucking stalls or cleaning the hay barn or whatever. And when you add in the livestock to the equation, there does need to be competent supervision. I guess the same would be true working on a construction site.

[OldGreyEagle]

There is a lot to be unerstood here, or misunderstood as it were. First, there is nothing wrong with a scout performing heavy manual labor to earn money for scout camp, a high adventure trip or a mini-bike. To get to the Grand Canyon and Glacier National Park as a youth. I cut grass, painted swimming pools, caddied golf and did pretty much whatever it took to earn the money. I did it alone, me as a free agent. I see other scouts the same way, many of the them cut grass and other things. This can't be the issue.

 

If the Troop plans on operating a referral service, I find it intriguing. Ads are placed around town with a line like, "Boy Scouts for Rent" with either hourly or by the job rates. This, I guess, is OK, if the Troop reccommends the scout for the job, the scout shows up and does the work and gets paid for it.

 

Where I see real problems is if the Troop lines up work, provides the scouts to do the work and then the Troop is paid which in turn pays the boys. In the first two scenarios the scouts are independent contractors, here they become employees and requirements and scope change. Child labor laws may play a part as well as workman's comp, witholding, etc.

 

Then again, the Troop contracts with someone to provide boys to clean up, build, cut whatver and place the entire amount of funds in the troops account for "Camp". This sounds really interesting. The question of liability is key, if an accident happens, is the primary insurance going to the the boy's, the Troop or the landowner?

 

Is there a lawyer in the house? A real "piece" and not someone who slept at a Holiday Inn?

 

So, what set-up are we talking about?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[ScoutNut]

Everyone here will have an opinion (probably different ). However, our opinion does not count.

 

To get the real info, contact whoever it is in your council who approves the Unit Money-Earning Permits. Run the specifics past them & get their input on if it is a viable project or not.

 

We may think it is a bang-up idea, but it does not matter if your council will not approve the application.

[Trevorum]

First thing I'd do is ask the SPL to run it by the PLC. If the scouts don't like the idea, it's dead anyway.

[scoutingagain]

We considered something like OGE's approach of refering scouts to local businesses for jobs to earn money for a high adventure trip. The idea involved sending a letter to local businessed indicating the unit had 6 - 8 boys, of legal employement age, looking for an opportunity to earn money to pay for a high adventure trip. The terms of employment would be between the scout and the business. It never panned out, because there wasn't enough interest in the trip, but the idea is still out there as a possiblity. We weren't looking to place 30 - 50 scouts, only 6 - 8 teens.

 

Now as a youth, (back in ancient times, pre-litigate every stubbed toe times,) the troop I was in held a "slave" sale at our CO. Scouts were put up for sale for work and odd jobs around a house for private homeowners for a fee. Most of us ended up mowing lawns or painting as I recall. (It was ancient times.)

 

Now I wouldn't be against this concept but would want to know the legal, liability issues first. Hmm, having scouts earn money by working for it. Now that's a novel concept.

 

SA

[woodie on surfari]

Thanks to everyone for their input. The Scouts in question are all young Scouts that just bridged over in January so that's where a lot of my concern originated. They definitely need supervision and direction wherever they are.

 

Your help is much appreciated!

[SR751Fox]

Call me 'old school' -- I'm with OGE on this one. As a young Boy Scout, my parents told me that they were not paying my way to camp and that I would have to earn it myself. Part of that was participating in the official troop fundraiser. But any additional funds came from mowing lawns.

 

This doesn't have to be complicated. Leave the council out of it, since it's not a Scouting issue. If someone has some hay to be stacked, stalls to be cleaned or a lawn to be mowed, they should contact the boys/parents directly and let them deal with it.

 

Take care.

[Lisabob]

Hoo boy, you're talking about new cross-overs here; this raises some serious flags. I'm all for scouts earning their way and learning to work a little. However, as someone who has worked in horse barns for many years and also who has run horseback riding summer camp programs, I would be very uncomfortable being in a position of "farming out" a bunch of 10-11 year old boys. It's one thing to offer your individual scouts some leads if they're looking for employment ("Why don't you ask Mrs Jones if she needs her yard mowed")- it is another to solicit local farms or businesses for work with a "crew" of scouts. From your initial email I take it that your troop is considering something more along the lines of this latter idea, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

First off, most kids this age have limited strength and there are a lot of things on a farm that they simply wouldn't be able to do, or do well. Stacking hay bales is physically demanding work after about the 5th one! It can also be dangerous if you're talking about going very high up. Anybody who has ever done it knows it takes balance and strength as well as common sense - which a lot of 10-11 year olds are notoriously lacking. Mucking stalls is hard work too and they're not going to get many done at a time (thus limiting their utility as employees, if we're talking about anywhere with more than a couple of animals). There are always more menial tasks - buckets to be scrubbed, fences to be repaired, etc.. But even there you'd better pay attention (not something 10-11 year olds are known for either) because you leave some nails on the ground in the pasture by accident and an animal steps on it, receives a nasty puncture, which can become a life-threatening/career-ending infection. Or you don't check to make sure all the points are flattened so that the nail won't cut an animal that rubs against the boards, etc., etc.

 

By the way I don't know what the rules are in your area? But having worked on a larger horse farm in my neck of the woods, I know that most simply will not employ, or even accept as volunteers, anyone under the age of 14.

 

Second, kids ages 10-11 not known for their maturity or good judgment and frankly, if they're not familiar with farms or farm animals, they could be more nuisance than help. They might end up in, or inadvertently create, dangerous situations. So they'd need supervision.

 

I'm not saying kids can't do this work because I've worked in barns in varying capacities since I was a small child. But it does take a lot of supervision by competent adults or at least, older teens who know what they're doing. If your scout leaders aren't willing and/or don't know much about farms themselves then you don't want to be in a position of being in charge of this sort of employment procurement for your scouts. I would imagine the same is true of construction sites. Be sure you've thought this through before you start making this an organized troop effort.

[LongHaul]

First up the Money Earning rules and regs pertain to UNIT fund raising and not individual fund raising. If the money earned goes entirely to the scouts doing the work then you dont need a permit even though it is a group effort. If the unit gets a cut you are supposed to follow the rules and submit the application to council.

Second up Lisabob has focused on the farm clean up part. I have relatives that own a working farm and spent summers there from 7 to 15 years old. Lisabob does not exaggerate in her concern for the safety of the 10-11 scout. If this were a farming community these boys would be working their own farms, chances to work as hired help would already have been looked into as farming generally doesnt provide a lot of cash flow particularly for younger boys. So it seems these boys would not be experienced labor. I worked construction for a short time and it is no place for little kids that are not aware and focused on the safety aspect.

On the surface Id say without more info about the back ground of these boys and the experience the unit has with this type of project Id caution against doing it.

LongHaul

 

[SR751Fox]

I think it goes without saying that you don't want an 11-year-old holding a hoof while the farrier does his work on the 2-year-old thoroughbred. Ultimately though, this is a parent-kid issue. It has nothing to do with the unit, district or council. As far as someone in the troop passing along possible job ideas . . . it really doesn't matter, since the parents ultimately decide.

[Lisabob]

Fox, no farrier in their right mind would ask a kid (or most anyone else either) to hold a horse's hoof while they're shoeing. Farriers typically do this themselves. They MIGHT ask an experienced person to hold the horse's head/lead. But again, they aren't likely to want a kid doing that either - too dangerous for the farrier if the horse acts up (or decides to bite the farrier in the behind!) Frankly I'm not even thinking about the 101 ways in which 10-11 year olds with no experience could cause harm or be harmed working directly with animals - they wouldn't be doing so without close supervision on any farm I've ever been on - I'm thinking about the other 101+ ways an inexperienced kid (or adult either) working *around* animals and farm machinery could easily get hurt or cause problems for others.

[SR540Beaver]

Ahem, I'm no attorney, but I did sleep at a Holiday....what...ohhhhhh.....nevermind.

[SR751Fox]

Lisabob -- I was illustrating absurdity. I can assure you, having cleaned a stall or two myself (mean thoroughbred racers no less), that I know all about the inherent dangers of working around horses.

 

And you are correct about the 101+ ways kids can get hurt on farms. How many times have I had to threaten my own child to stay off the tractor and not throw rocks at the spinning PTO?!?

 

But I also know an adult who got several toes cut off by a push mower. And I've seen a black eye caused by someone stepping on a garden rake. -- My own son sliced into his finger with the same knife that he had just earned his Tote n' Chip by showing proper use only minutes earlier.

 

Parents must use common sense when allowing their children to participate in certain job opportunities. And for goodness' sakes, leave the Scouts out of it.