Troop Culture vs Scouting Methods

[ramanous]

@InquisitiveScouter Tell me about your district and council. Number of troops, members, etc, roughly? How active is your district (events, etc)? Is the council membership grown, steady, declining? Are there other troops nearby?

[Eagle94-A1]

7 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I always wondered why we wouldn't look to either 20-30 year old ex scouts or 55+ year old aging scouters to fill District roles (basically avoiding parents of scout aged kids).  In my area, most District roles are filled by unit volunteers, burning them out or having them choose between helping their unit or helping the District.

20 year olds cannot  serve in the district role per National. And as a 21-24 year old district committee member, I can tell you from first hand experience some Scouters viewed me as "just a kid, " 'you do not know anything because..." no knots, no beds, no SM patch, ad nauseam.

 

7 hours ago, ramanous said:

I may have proposed the question wrong. If the units are complaining about lack of district support, yet all of the district committee members are from the units. In other words, they are complaining about the lack of support that is of their own doing. 

No, we are not complaining about lack of support from district committee members, we are complaining about the treatment by pros, which causes folks to not want to be involved at the district level at all. In my district's situation, the large majority of positions are vacant because no one wants to deal with the issues mentioned above.

 

On thing I forgot earlier Pros need to be TRUSTWORTHY, and. not lie abut why things are being done, or not being done. Best example I can give is the council being told one reason things are being done, and the unit and district volunteers a different reason why things are being done.

 

6 hours ago, ramanous said:

How are your district people selected? Who is nominating your members-at-large? Who is appointing members of your nominating committee? I speculate the most innocuous reason is due to limited social networks. More egregious reasons are egos, gatekeeping and controlling district resources.

Do you want how it is supposed to be done, how the Pros want it done, or how it is done in reality, at least in my experience with multiple councils?

The nominating committee is suppose to look at who is the best person for the job recruit them, and have the district committee vote EN BANC (emphasis) as a slate of officers. There are no choices for each position, and committee member selection can be rigged.

The Pros want a nominating committee who will put people in positions so that they will do exactly what the Pros want them to do with no questioning. When I was a DE, my SE told me point blank to only select folks who can follow directions, and not necessarily the best person for each job.

In reality it is whomever is willing to do the work gets the job, regardless if they are capable or not. 

[Eagle1993]

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

And as a 21-24 year old district committee member, I can tell you from first hand experience some Scouters viewed me as "just a kid, " 'you do not know anything because..." no knots, no beds, no SM patch, ad nauseam.

That is sad to hear, but not surprised.

[Tron]

22 hours ago, ramanous said:

The district and council committee is primary comprised on the CORs of the units. And, at least in my limited experience, the members-at-large are all unit adults. So, when the unit says the district doesn't support them, how do you flip that around? 

Stacking the committee with insiders results from the units fighting for their share of declining resources. The political power isn't there to load the district committees with neutral members. In theory, the council president should be preventing this through the nominating process but "good ole'" club politics is getting in the way.

My experience is that CORs are not engaged; they don't have their training done, none know that they are voting members of the district and council by virtue of their position. DE's and DC's do not engage the CORS because they don't want to lose control of the narrative or agenda. 

22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As a former pro, I can tell you even with professionals leading every troop, the quality will vary.

 

Yes it is a red flag, one that says the council is not supporting the units, at least in my experience with 2 different councils. 

Districts and councils are there to support the unit, not the other way around. If a unit is in need of help from the district/council, and is constantly being ignored, the unit will start isolating themselves.

If unit leaders work to put on events, and  do not get the support they need to run the event, get  overruled on things, or the event is cancelled last minute despite everything being in place and ready to go, but the "budget surplus" is not being met, then units will start isolating themselves.

If a unit attends their council summer camp, and it is an absolute Charley Foxtrot;  with the suggestions and recommendations to improve  the camp and its program are ignored, then you will have units doing their own thing.

The irony in my experience is that the leaders of these units were usually some of the most active, pro council volunteers. In one council I was in, the units in question had former district committee members, Silver Beavers and OA Vigils in them. They were accused of being "Council Kool Aid Drinkers ( I know, Jim Jones used Flavor Aid), because they were at one time so supportive of council. Ditto on the second council I have seen this occur.

I would add to this that professional staffers making arbitrary decisions or attempting to micro manage has pushed so many good volunteers in my council out into the cold. 

18 hours ago, ramanous said:

How are your district people selected? Who is nominating your members-at-large? Who is appointing members of your nominating committee? I speculate the most innocuous reason is due to limited social networks. More egregious reasons are egos, gatekeeping and controlling district resources.

There is training and a recommended method from national; none of the districts in my area have ever followed the national policy. I always wonder about the stupidity or ego of these 20 something DE"s that they think their method is going to be better than 115 years of refined experienced BSA policy. 

There is a point where just filling seats with butts and refining the selection over a course of years is the only option. My district for example is 100% non-functional. It's mostly our past DE's fault for selecting a total POS of a nominating chair and letting him gatekeep; our new DE is starting to own the problem. The POS nominating chair tried to exclude "his enemies" on the committee from the nominating slate a couple of years ago and the DC straight up stopped the meeting and told the DE he had better reconsider the slate and who was being excluded due to how much work they (the excluded) do. 

16 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I'll tell you why we "isolate" ourselves...

We have the strongest Troop in our District, and I daresay our Council. 

First and foremost, this is because of a small dedicated cadre of adults (about eight) who understand the Patrol Method, and mentor our Scouts to keep that as a focal point in our activities.

We have 35 total adults registered, with 44 youth currently on the books. 

Of the 35 adults, again, eight pull most of the weight, about 17 dabble here and there to help out, and 10 contribute nothing, if not less

Of the 44 Scouts, about 10 are extremely active in the program, about 26 dabble, and eight contribute nothing and will probably drop out.

Side note:  notice how those numbers follow the 20-60-20 rule?  I learned that some time ago in a military leadership course... in any group, 20% of your people are Sierra Hotel (focus your time on them), 60% are average performers (encourage them and some will respond, but not all), and 20% are low performers (Help them when they ask..  Do not expend effort chasing them or trying to bring them into the 60%.  If they do, great... if they don't, let them go.)

Here are a few tenets of our Troop adult culture:

1.  Adults will be fully trained in their positions. No exceptions.  We make adults aware of the training burden and commitment expected before they sign on.

2.  Don't get your training done, and you are dropped from the roster. 

3.  It is not about your kid.  You are here for all.  The best compliment you can get is, at the end of a camping trip, when your Scout hops in your car, another Scout looks at him and says "I didn't know that was your Dad (or Mom).  During our events, try to act in such a way as to receive that compliment.

4.  Our Troop pays for adults' food and camping fees for trips. (or at least a portion thereof, when attendance is over the adult leadership requirements)  Adults pay for their own activity fees (like whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc.), and their fair share of gas and tolls for the trip.  We let our adults know we appreciate their time and sacrifice.

5.  We pay for all required training.  For example, when you sign up to be an ASM, you must attend IOLS.  You pay out of pocket at first, and when you are done, the Troop reimburses you the cost.

6.  We pay half for advanced courses. For example, we have our own unit climbing program, so we sent a leader to National Camp School, Climbing section, to get certified, so we can run our own unit program. (Our program is cheaper than local council or commercial costs!!)  We sent a leader to NCS for Outdoor Skills (formerly know as Scoutcraft).  We sent a leader to do Shooting Sports (now known as Range and Target Activities?)  Next year, we hope to send one to Aquatics.

7.  A good number of our adults are trained in CPR/AED, Wilderness First Aid, Swimming and Water Rescue, Paddlecraft Safety, and YES!! Chainsaw Safety.  We push leaders to get these kinds of courses as a "Force Multiplier".  With these skills, we greatly enhance our capability to provide youth the program they want, when they want it.

8.  We police each other.  Youth Protection is fiercely enforced.  Other breaches of GTSS and Scouter Code of Conduct are handled discretely, but firmly.  Most infractions are due to ignorance.  Ignorance can be cured...

9.  Overall, adults need to know that, as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out above, unit leaders "...are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program..."  When you treat them that way, they respond with dedication.

There are more facets here, but I'll stop.

We "isolate" ourselves because the District and Council live a different set of tenets.  And the program they run is, well, below our skill set, to put it politely.

In 2020, during the pandemic, when all Scouting shut down, our youth still wanted to do a Summer Camp.  So, we made our own, and they had a blast.  (And EVERYTHING was within the parameters of our State Governor's and CDC orders/guidelines.)  The Scouts absolutely loved it!  The only thing we did not have then was shooting sports.

Since 2020, our PLC has elected to go to various council camps for Summer Camp.  The ones who went in 2020 (who are now the senior Scouts) have been disappointed over the years in what they have experienced in the council-run camps.  So, they asked to have another Troop-only Summer Camp this year, and it was a huge success. 

(By the way, in 2020, we ran the camp with 30 youth, 11 adults, at a cost of $244.01 per head; in 2025, 22 youth and 11 adults, at a cost of  $303.40 per head.) [exactly in line with inflation...]

We have found that we can run a better quality program, at a cheaper cost, and with much less hassle, than going to district or council events.  This includes day, weekend, and weeklong programs...

I always wondered why large troops didn't run their own summer camp. 5 days, 5 to 10 different merit badges. Lower costs, more flexibility in scheduling, less wasted time just running around. 

[Eagle94-A1]

16 minutes ago, Tron said:

I always wondered why large troops didn't run their own summer camp. 5 days, 5 to 10 different merit badges. Lower costs, more flexibility in scheduling, less wasted time just running around. 

Biggest drawback is time prep. We did our own summer camp during COVID, and although I was an essential worker and had to go in to work, I had a lot more time to create a program. I do not think I could do the same thing now.

Plus most  of the adults are now focused on advancement and MBs, and not adventure. And this attitude has gone down to the Scouts. I have 2 scouts whose last summer camp will be 2026. One of them's attitude is the same as their parent's: they have all the MBS they need for Eagle and do not need to go to summer camp.  The previous SM and I had to talk about HA activities at various camps. neither the Scout nor their parent realized they could do those activities. 

Funny thing is the ones who went to COVID CAMP said it was the best summer camp ever, but would not want to do it again. When asked why, they said no MBs. Even though every activity was part of a MB, and several MBs were started.

27 minutes ago, Tron said:

My experience is that CORs are not engaged; they don't have their training done, none know that they are voting members of the district and council by virtue of their position. DE's and DC's do not engage the CORS because they don't want to lose control of the narrative or agenda. 

Absolutely correct. Especially when camps are up for sale.

 

28 minutes ago, Tron said:

I would add to this that professional staffers making arbitrary decisions or attempting to micro manage has pushed so many good volunteers in my council out into the cold. 

Understatement. Same thing has happened in my council. Now some districts have less than 30% of the district positions staffed. 

 

28 minutes ago, Tron said:

I always wonder about the stupidity or ego of these 20 something DE"s that they think their method is going to be better than 115 years of refined experienced BSA policy. 

It is not stupidity or ego, rather it is their superiors pressuring them to get agreeable, or as one SE called them "Pro-Council" committee members instead of the best possible choices. At least when I went thru the DE training, they taught us the right way, and would not talk about how folks are being told to do it. So the problem is known. 

[ramanous]

This is a fascinating discussion, reading the various points of view around the same subject matter. Of course, I know how its supposed to be (mostly), I've read all the guidance, policies, bylaws, etc. And then reality sets-in! 

13 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

And as a 21-24 year old district committee member, I can tell you from first hand experience some Scouters viewed me as "just a kid, " 'you do not know anything because..." no knots, no beds, no SM patch, ad nauseam.

What I've seen is similar, but its the veteran scouters intimidating the 20 something DEs. We lost one a few years ago I suspect, in part, due to this. I know these veteran scouters are doing this, because I've had several try to intimidate me. 

@InquisitiveScouter - I'd still like to know particulars about your district. The number of troops, scouts, events, etc. Is membership improving or declining? Do you have a handful of large troops and small troops in your district? 

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

27 minutes ago, ramanous said:

This is a fascinating discussion, reading the various points of view around the same subject matter. Of course, I know how its supposed to be (mostly), I've read all the guidance, policies, bylaws, etc. And then reality sets-in! 

What I've seen is similar, but its the veteran scouters intimidating the 20 something DEs. We lost one a few years ago I suspect, in part, due to this. I know these veteran scouters are doing this, because I've had several try to intimidate me. 

@InquisitiveScouter - I'd still like to know particulars about your district. The number of troops, scouts, events, etc. Is membership improving or declining? Do you have a handful of large troops and small troops in your district? 

 

 

Sorry, don't have time to do this kind of homework for you...

[ramanous]

In this homework assignment there are no wrong answers, only insightful responses.  

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, ramanous said:

In this homework assignment there are no wrong answers, only insightful responses.  

OK, I'll humor you, but I'll give you rough numbers...

Dec 2018, over 8000 Scouts (all programs in our council), over 2000 in our district, with almost 40 troops

Dec 2024, less than 5000 Scouts, 1.2K in district, with fewer than 30 Troops.  Troops sizes are mixed... some large (35+), some mid-sized (15-35), some small (<15)

Since 2018, we have lost a fourth of our Troops, and that is factoring in the addition of 8 girl troops. (One girl Troop folded last year)

Five districts in council, most without a DE for some time.

Our district very active, with an event for Cubs and Scouts at district level almost every month, except during Summer Camp season.  Including council events, there is something for Troops and Packs literally every month of the year. (For Troops, I think this is too much)

Yes, other Troops nearby. 

I work with our district training crew, and our district is 17.5% points higher in adult training than the next lowest district, 22.5% higher than the lowest district.

Our Troop member numbers have remained steady-ish in this time, but only due to gaining the losses from the Troops folding in recent years.  We have fewer new Scouts joining over the past three years...

(Our Troop met Gold JTE for every year since 2017, with two years of what I like to call "solid gold", that is, gold level in every category.)  We are known for having a quality program.

Now, your turn for homework... let's see your numbers for comparison.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, ramanous said:

What I've seen is similar, but its the veteran scouters intimidating the 20 something DEs. We lost one a few years ago I suspect, in part, due to this. I know these veteran scouters are doing this, because I've had several try to intimidate me. 

While  the Scouters in my district were skeptical of me being their DE, I was #3 in a 3 or 4 year period, only had one long time Scouter try to intimidate me. I didn't know who he was, but he made some  comments about me "sleeping in a mudpuddle" at an OA Ordeal. Since he was spotless, I replied with my home lodge's old mantra, " a clean Arrowman is a lazy Arrowman," and walked off to join my chapter.

[ramanous]

@InquisitiveScouter That does provide some insight. I asked, because I was curious about the trends.

Your district has almost as many members as our council, which is also geographically large with units concentrated in pockets. Similar to yours, some of these units absorbed members from covid induced unit collapsing. However, we're now seeing those units numbers decline as families don't want to travel that far. We have one district that is marginally active with about 3 events a year. The other districts are essentially non functioning, but at least in part due to units refusing to support any attempt at district recruiting and programming, which, unfortunately, is self-defeating. But, its not low population. Our market share is very low. I was brought in to help turn this around. New units should be low hanging fruit, but for some existing units holding their district prisoner, creating a dilemma.

Once a month district events for troops does sound like too much to me also. Maybe a sign of other units relying too much on district, which supports your observation that other units are not getting the RIGHT type of district support.