A Question About a WEBELOS Attending a Scout Troop Camping Trip

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

2 hours ago, DannyG said:

Is this what you mean?

Yep.

And it has been clarified.  As regards the clarification...

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

2 hours ago, RichardB said:

But.... he is not, from your OP, he is an active Cub Scout, still engaged in Cub Scout advancement and programming.    

No... he is inactive because the den has not completed AOL, and has no definitive plan to do so.

So, he (his parent really) is wanting to ditch Cub Scouts, and they are looking for a Troop. 

The parent (I guess after their experience with an under-performing den?) wants to make sure they avoid a similar situation, and wants to find a quality program for their son.  "Try it before you buy it."

The crux of the question is, why would we impose a handicap on a youth who meets the criteria to join Scouts BSA, that he would not otherwise have, simply because he is registered as a Cub Scout?

Edited March 14 by InquisitiveScouter

[HashTagScouts 437]

41 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes, our Registrar confirms they are covered by our Accident and Insurance policy, per

"Scouts and guests who are being encouraged to become registered Scouts and volunteers are automatically insured while in attendance at a scheduled activity."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/

Roll with it. Begs the question on that disclaimer "Youth who are not registered in the unit may not accompany parents or siblings in camping programs of Scouts BSA, Venturing, and Sea Scouting." If the intent there is to not have non-age appropriate siblings (that is to say, they can't join the unit because they are only say 8 years old), then why not say that? Otherwise, if you had a 12 year old register Scout and their 14 year old non-BSA registered brother (or sister, if they are both female and we're talking about a GT) were to attend, you'd jsut take the "encourage to become" exception to skirt it. G2SS for the win again...  

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

And yet, when you point out gaps in BSA policy like this, you get the stink eye.

But, we can have an effect!  I am convinced @RichardB got hold of people to make this change due to our conversations here!

https://www.scouter.com/topic/33455-concerns-for-bsas-future/?tab=comments#comment-549021

And the result generated:

"Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping is limited to no more than two consecutive nights. "

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/#a

Thanks, @RichardB!!

I do wish they recognized and appreciated the brain trust we have here, to bat around policies in a collaborative environment to help provide clear and definitive guidance...

Edited March 14 by InquisitiveScouter

[RichardB 220]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL, thanks.  You see the logic trap, therefore avoid answering the question.

I will appeal to Caesar, and hold hope that common sense still reigns.

@qwazse, you are once again proven correct!  Rule #1 (Don’t ask for a rule, you’ll live to regret it.)  Not regretting it yet, but getting there 😜 

No trap.  Your question is asked and answered on it's merit.  With a citation of the source of the answer by the guy who publishes it.      

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

1 hour ago, RichardB said:

No trap.  Your question is asked and answered on it's merit.  With a citation of the source of the answer by the guy who publishes it.      

We disagree that that is an answer.  The verbiage you cited specifically applies to den coordinated camping, on its face.

But since you are the guy who publishes it, would you care to edify us on the thought behind it, given the situation posed?

Here's a hypothetical to help view the policy gap more clearly:

Twin 11-year-old brothers arrive at our Troop.  They are looking for a Troop to join.

Their parents asks if their twins may attend a camping trip before deciding on whether to commit to joining.

"Sure!" We say, as this is allowed under current policies, and they are covered by BSA insurance as outlined in the G2SS.

"Scouts and guests who are being encouraged to become registered Scouts and volunteers are automatically insured while in attendance at a scheduled activity."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/

1)  We ask the parents for an AHMR A&B.  We discuss any potential medical constraints... (required by BSA)

2) We get signed permission slips.  (Not required by BSA, but by us...)

3) We have two leaders have a discussion on behavior expectations with the youth and parents.

4)  The parents agree to pick up the youth from our event if they do not hold to those expectations.

We guide them through some gear recommendations, and get them plugged into patrols with their buddies.

Before they leave that meeting, the parents say, "We really hope this works out.  Jimmy has not had a good experience in his Cub Scout pack.  His brother Johnny never joined because of that.  We really want them to be in a good unit that is a good fit."

Are you telling me we have to tell the parents Johnny can go, but Jimmy cannot, because Jimmy is registered as a Cub Scout? 

 

Edited March 14 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

On 3/14/2024 at 3:38 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

We disagree that that is an answer.  The verbiage you cited specifically applies to den coordinated camping, on its face.

But since you are the guy who publishes it, would you care to edify us on the thought behind it, given the situation posed?

Here's a hypothetical to help view the policy gap more clearly:

Twin 11-year-old brothers arrive at our Troop.  They are looking for a Troop to join.

Their parents asks if their twins may attend a camping trip before deciding on whether to commit to joining.

"Sure!" We say, as this is allowed under current policies, and they are covered by BSA insurance as outlined in the G2SS.

"Scouts and guests who are being encouraged to become registered Scouts and volunteers are automatically insured while in attendance at a scheduled activity."

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/

1)  We ask the parents for an AHMR A&B.  We discuss any potential medical constraints... (required by BSA)

2) We get signed permission slips.  (Not required by BSA, but by us...)

3) We have two leaders have a discussion on behavior expectations with the youth and parents.

4)  The parents agree to pick up the youth from our event if they do not hold to those expectations.

We guide them through some gear recommendations, and get them plugged into patrols with their buddies.

Before they leave that meeting, the parents say, "We really hope this works out.  Jimmy has not had a good experience in his Cub Scout pack.  His brother Johnny never joined because of that.  We really want them to be in a good unit that is a good fit."

Are you telling me we have to tell the parents Johnny can go, but Jimmy cannot, because Jimmy is registered as a Cub Scout? 

 

Still waiting for a coherent answer to the post above...

Meanwhile, I asked this question at our last Roundtable, as one topic of discussion was recruiting and transition.  This went up to council, and the word back through our District Commissioner from our SE (we have no DE) was that youth who meet the criteria for joining Scouts, BSA, may camp with a Troop, and they are covered by insurance if not registered.  (and I have the email trail...)

Our Caesar has spoken.  And common sense has prevailed.

In my opinion, the more nonsensical restrictions we (the BSA) impose on families, the less likely they are to join the movement.  Rules are fine, when you can present a logical reason for the rule.  The thinking and position that, "We have this rule, and we know it does not jive with other rules or common sense, but that is the rule!" really puts people off.  I would submit that this BSA mindset is another straw on the camel's back for parents when deciding whether to join or continue in Scouting.

Kind of like the "Our kids are friends, but your Scout son (a neighbor) cannot come over to hang out or study with my Scout son because BSA says I have to have another adult leader present.  Yes, I know these two 17 year-olds are taking on their AP Chemistry test this week, and they want to study together, but BSA rules are BSA rules!"

Um... no.

And also.... from G2SS FAQ, which is not "really" policy 😜 

"All parents and caregivers should understand that our leaders are to abide by these safeguards. Registered leaders must follow these guidelines with all Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities. There are careers that may require one-on-one contact with youth, however aside from those roles, volunteers must abide by the youth protection policies of the BSA even outside of Scouting activities."   

"MUST" um... no.

This nonsensical statement is overstepping, and balderdash, and parents laugh at BSA openly when they hear it.  BSA policy does not nullify parental rights and authority to make decisions about the welfare of their children just because their child becomes a member of BSA.

Nonsensical policies also cause many leaders to adopt a "we'll just do it our way" mentality.  And when they begin to ignore one or two confusing guidelines, the path becomes slippery and they ignore more and more and more...

This describes about half of the units I know of...

It also drives away older youth who are becoming more independent.  Freedom comes with risk, and they crave both.  Give them no freedom, and remove all risk (versus giving them tools and guidance to understand and manage risk), and you destroy the development of their independence.

And FAQ are no way to promulgate policy.  If your policy is written so ambiguously as to require FAQ to explain it, then you need to re-write your policy.

The better statement in G2SS is this:

"In situations not specifically covered in this guide, activity planners should evaluate the risk or potential risk of harm, and respond with action plans based on common sense, community standards, the Scout motto, and safety policies and practices commonly prescribed for the activity by experienced providers and practitioners."

I often operate under that mindset.  Like when my son and his neighbor buddy studied for their AP test together with just me at home, or when they camped in the back yard while my wife was visiting her parents, or when they went down to the creek to play together without an adult there, etc. etc. etc...

 

 

Edited March 20 by InquisitiveScouter