Scouter with WAY too much involvement.

[Maboot38 23]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:57 PM, mrjohns2 said:

No, they don't. You are mistaken. The key 3 delegate position is to delegate, software wise, key 3 access. A member of the key does not get automatically, nor needs, the key 3 delegate role. 

OK, thanks for the clarification. 

But maybe I shouldn't have mentioned scoutbook at all. The point of my inquiry was whether or not a Scouter was allowed to hold all those positions. I'm much less interested in the technical workings of Scoutbook in this context.

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

2 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

OK, thanks for the clarification. 

But maybe I shouldn't have mentioned scoutbook at all. The point of my inquiry was whether or not a Scouter was allowed to hold all those positions. I'm much less interested in the technical workings of Scoutbook in this context.

So, if this person were to limit themselves to one function, which do you think would be most value-added to the unit?

For any position you pick, I could point out a list of responsibilities, most of which are likely NOT being taken care of, or done well, at the moment in your unit.

Most volunteers I work with simply do not have the time required to dive deep into a position and do it to a level of excellence.  Many do a passable job, and that has to be good enough... A good handful don't do much at all, nor care to learn what it takes to make a Scouting unit function well.  These are the ones who need training and motivation, or need to be moved out of the position...

[Maboot38 23]

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

So, if this person were to limit themselves to one function, which do you think would be most value-added to the unit?

For any position you pick, I could point out a list of responsibilities, most of which are likely NOT being taken care of, or done well, at the moment in your unit.

Most volunteers I work with simply do not have the time required to dive deep into a position and do it to a level of excellence.  Many do a passable job, and that has to be good enough... A good handful don't do much at all, nor care to learn what it takes to make a Scouting unit function well.  These are the ones who need training and motivation, or need to be moved out of the position...

If they were to JUST be Committee Chair, that would be just fine. They are incapable of staying in their lane though.

Imagine an extremely dominating helicopter parent, coming into a troop and doing everything for the scouts, telling everyone where and when you will camp, straining noodles for kids, carrying gear for kids, rolling sleeping bags for kids...taking scoutmaster info packets at camporees and assuming the default leadership role, getting angry when asked to give said info to the scoutmaster, being extremely loud constantly. Babying the scouts (following them around handing out hand wipes, providing them with snacks even, and pretty much not allowing any learning to take place by allowing them to fail and learn...... Imagine all that, plus someone who is so unsafe driving that other parents refuse to allow their kids to ride with this person, someone who insists on handling all kids medication, but then screams at the top of their lungs "Kevin!!! Come get your ADHD meds!!!" with no regard for privacy. Imagine being entirely un-coachable and unchanging on any of the above behaviors.....and now imagine that person is ALSO your committee chair, advancement chair, training chair, and insists on being an assistant scoutmaster, even thought he scoutmaster never wanted them to be an ASM.

These are my challenges. So the motivation of my post was to find out if, at the very lease, I could say "actually, despite you insisting, you CANNOT be an ASM...according to BSA rules". That's what I was looking for, and it looks like we've found it on page 14. The rest...well I'm hoping the COR will be tired of quitting Scoutmasters and make the correct change here.  

On the upside....our Scouts are AWESOME, and I love working with them. They just deserve better.

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

1 minute ago, Maboot38 said:

If they were to JUST be Committee Chair, that would be just fine. They are incapable of staying in their lane though.

Imagine an extremely dominating helicopter parent, coming into a troop and doing everything for the scouts, telling everyone where and when you will camp, straining noodles for kids, carrying gear for kids, rolling sleeping bags for kids...taking scoutmaster info packets at camporees and assuming the default leadership role, getting angry when asked to give said info to the scoutmaster, being extremely loud constantly. Babying the scouts (following them around handing out hand wipes, providing them with snacks even, and pretty much not allowing any learning to take place by allowing them to fail and learn...... Imagine all that, plus someone who is so unsafe driving that other parents refuse to allow their kids to ride with this person, someone who insists on handling all kids medication, but then screams at the top of their lungs "Kevin!!! Come get your ADHD meds!!!" with no regard for privacy. Imagine being entirely un-coachable and unchanging on any of the above behaviors.....and now imagine that person is ALSO your committee chair, advancement chair, training chair, and insists on being an assistant scoutmaster, even thought he scoutmaster never wanted them to be an ASM.

These are my challenges. So the motivation of my post was to find out if, at the very lease, I could say "actually, despite you insisting, you CANNOT be an ASM...according to BSA rules". That's what I was looking for, and it looks like we've found it on page 14. The rest...well I'm hoping the COR will be tired of quitting Scoutmasters and make the correct change here.  

On the upside....our Scouts are AWESOME, and I love working with them. They just deserve better.

Understood.

Most likely, pointing out rules isn't going to curb their behavior.

Sounds like you'll need an intervention, of sorts.

How engaged is your Chartered Organization Representative, and do you know who your Unit Commissioner and District Executive are?

How many other like-minded volunteers/parents have you discussed this with?

Are you considering leaving the unit if things aren't resolved?

 

[Maboot38 23]

21 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Understood.

Most likely, pointing out rules isn't going to curb their behavior.

Sounds like you'll need an intervention, of sorts.

How engaged is your Chartered Organization Representative, and do you know who your Unit Commissioner and District Executive are?

How many other like-minded volunteers/parents have you discussed this with?

Are you considering leaving the unit if things aren't resolved?

 

COR was engaged yesterday and he has asked me who I propose to replace the CC.

ALL parents and scouters agree this is a problem. I've personally spoken to at least eight. All agree this is a problem. I am unaware of any parent that does NOT agree.

It's painful. This person isn't a bad person, they're just unlike anyone I've encountered before. I'm not afraid of confrontation, but even confrontation doesn't seem to resolve it. I'm hoping the COR is able to facilitate a change, because yes, I cannot properly lead the SPLs (and therefore the troop) in these circumstances and will depart if things remain as they are. Last thing I want to do is let the kids down, so I truly pray that we can fix this. The last scoutmaster left for the same reason.

Edited February 12 by Maboot38

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

29 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

COR was engaged yesterday and he has asked me who I propose to replace the CC.

ALL parents and scouters agree this is a problem. I've personally spoken to at least eight. All agree this is a problem. I am unaware of any parent that does NOT agree.

It's painful. This person isn't a bad person, they're just unlike anyone I've encountered before. I'm not afraid of confrontation, but even confrontation doesn't seem to resolve it. I'm hoping the COR is able to facilitate a change, because yes, I cannot properly lead the SPLs (and therefore the troop) in these circumstances and will depart if things remain as they are. Last thing I want to do is let the kids down, so I truly pray that we can fix this. The last scoutmaster left for the same reason.

Acknowledged.

Sounds like you have also had a personal discussion with them and it was not fruitful.  That train may have left the station, but...

Do you think another personal discussion would help?  If yes, focus on the person's behavior and how it is affecting the unit.  Explain that one of the repercussions of taking on too many roles is that of creating a single point of failure.  That is, if something were to happen to them (which no one can control), and because replacing them would require getting many people to step up and fill the roles, then having them do so much is exposing the unit to suffer MORE.  Another way of putting it is that this person, with all the wonderful things they do, is creating a strategic vulnerability for your Troop.  They should understand why this is an unacceptable situation, and agree to let others take on those roles... others whoa re already willing to step up.

You said if they take on CC only, that would be great, but, given the scope of what you have described so far, I personally do not believe this person would confine themselves to that role.  Your reality may be different...

If you and others in the Troop believe you have reached a point of no return, then the only call is removal.  Do not do this until you identify someone (and get their agreement) to take on the new CC role.

Identify the CC replacement.  Get the COR to approve (it's their call).  The COR should be the one telling the person about the change of positions.  Sort of an "Thank you for your service to the Troop!  We have decided to give others a chance to lead.  Effective immediately, you are no longer the Committee Chair." kind of thing.

Fill out an application for the new CC. and run it through the system.

This will cause some hurt feelings initially. Be Prepared to deal with disgruntlement. Follow @Jameson76's advice above, and have cake.

It might help if you identify a Committee Position or ASM role (not both!) for the person to focus on to help the Troop.  If they refuse, cut them loose.  Expect them to leave the Troop.  This might be the best for you unit in the long run.

You are experiencing the most painful thing about Scouting...  Adults ruin it!

[If all goes amicably, fine.  But, if there is any kind of scene in front of Scouts (recommend you do this when Scouts are not present) , or any inappropriate behavior, have COR ask them to leave the premises or be reported for trespassing.  Make sure the COR is willing to follow through with that by calling police to remove them, should it come to that.  Notify your Scout Executive if you have to do this.  Obviously, if anything worse happens... threats, property damage, violence... then you call authorities in ASAP.]

 

Edited February 12 by InquisitiveScouter

[Maboot38 23]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Thank you so much, this is all such wonderful advice!

"Fill out an application for the new CC. and run it through the system."

BUT...guess who processes the applications at Council!

"You are experiencing the most painful thing about Scouting...  Adults ruin it!"

I say this all the time!! For Scouting, and little league, and basketball, and.....(insert youth program here)

Honestly, I DO think it is time for cake at this point.

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

31 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

COR was engaged yesterday and he has asked me who I propose to replace the CC.

ALL parents and scouters agree this is a problem. I've personally spoken to at least eight. All agree this is a problem. I am unaware of any parent that does NOT agree.

It's painful. This person isn't a bad person, they're just unlike anyone I've encountered before. I'm not afraid of confrontation, but even confrontation doesn't seem to resolve it. I'm hoping the COR is able to facilitate a change, because yes, I cannot properly lead the SPLs (and therefore the troop) in these circumstances and will depart if things remain as they are. Last thing I want to do is let the kids down, so I truly pray that we can fix this. The last scoutmaster left for the same reason.

Oh, and what position are they registered for in my.scouting.org?  (NOT Scoutbook... Scoutbook is scoutbook.scouting.org)  Your Registrar would not have assigned them to a Committee Position and an ASM position.

Your my.scouting login should be the same as your Scoutbook login credentials, unless you have used your Google to sign in.

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

Just now, Maboot38 said:

 

Anyone can take an application to Council.  You just need the COR signature on it.  The current person need have no role in that...

[Maboot38 23]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Oh, and what position are they registered for in my.scouting.org?  (NOT Scoutbook... Scoutbook is scoutbook.scouting.org)  Your Registrar would not have assigned them to a Committee Position and an ASM position.

Your my.scouting login should be the same as your Scoutbook login credentials, unless you have used your Google to sign in.

You are correct (and they were untruthful). They are NOT registered as both in my.scouting.org.

Thanks! 

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

25 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

You are correct (and they were untruthful). They are NOT registered as both in my.scouting.org.

Thanks! 

Ok, curious... what are they registered for?

[Maboot38 23]

17 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Ok, curious... what are they registered for?

Committee Chair

Key 3 Delegate

Unit Advancement Chair

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

45 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

Committee Chair

Key 3 Delegate

Unit Advancement Chair

Ok, CC is the only registered position there.  The others are functionals assigned through the Organizational Manager in my.scouting.

[Maboot38 23]

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Ok, CC is the only registered position there.  The others are functionals assigned through the Organizational Manager in my.scouting.

Thanks! So my argument would not be that they CAN'T be CC and ASM, but rather, that they AREN'T CC and ASM (as I never appointed them ASM, nor are they registered as such). Semantics I guess at that point, but my guess is they won't care. We will be going the cake route.  

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

58 minutes ago, Maboot38 said:

Thanks! So my argument would not be that they CAN'T be CC and ASM, but rather, that they AREN'T CC and ASM (as I never appointed them ASM, nor are they registered as such). Semantics I guess at that point, but my guess is they won't care. We will be going the cake route.  

You are correct.

Might be a bit passive/aggressive, but if you want, you can go into Scoutbook, open their profile, select Memberships, and end the ASM role the same day as it began (not sure you can delete that entirely...).  

As to the Committee stuff... that is under his purview, so out of your lane.

Also, it is up to the Scoutmaster as to whom can sign off requirements.  Since you have not appointed him as an ASM, you should tell him to cease signing off requirements, if that is your desire.

Now, unfortunately, a Unit Advancement Chair and the CC still retain that capability in Scoutbook, but that is a flaw in the application design.