Krampus 696 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 That would be the norm. I can see scenarios where folks would do it : Scout develops proposal.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops plan.No signatures required (amazingly) Scout does project..Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops final report. I'm not advocating for that approach, I imagine it happens enough that it's worth clarifying the steps. Not sure why any unit lead would sign then. The final report is a requirement of the rank and the signature indicates that the unit leader has read the workbook and finds everything in order. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Hi again, son had SM, CC, and benficiary sign the proposal. I was just wondering if he had to write up the project in full before having Beneficiary and SM sign off on the project. Logically one would think the leaders would sign or review the project plan after the proposal is done and signed. My beef with BSA is that they don't require a signature on the plan too. How will a scout learn if they are not guided and advised in their plan? After posting, realized it was a pretty not smart question. OF COURSE he has to fill the book out. I am just so anxious to have him finished with the project and his new troop. Well, I have seen scouts get their proposal signed and run off and do their project without a plan. As there is no mandated check point to produce a plan prior to doing the project, as stated above, this is where BSA is wrong. No where in business do you perform work simply based on a high-level proposal. You ALWAYS come back with a detailed plan, THEN do the work. Glad to hear your son was smart. SM master is not really dedicated and is ............welll.........................sigh. SM feels slighted because he was not included in email for Project update 2 days before started. Son did not send any emails prior to that. Just talked to scouts at troop meetings WITH SM in room, but playing on his lap top. That's as much the SM's fault as it is the scout's fault. I heavily suggest that the guys get their plan done along with their proposal. I review both but only sign the proposal. Have only ever had one person push back and that was the person who screwed up their project due to very poor planning (or lack of). So, son still has some adjustments to do for project yet. Once they are done and beneficiary is pleased, he will have his booklet signed. He is working on the write-up this week. Hmmm. If the SM signed off on the proposal then what "adjustments" need to be made? The only person who can request changes is the beneficiary. If the scope of work meets their approval, unless there was a policy or procedural violation the SM cannot require any changes. This is exactly why we "request" our scouts do their plan and proposal before doing work and review BOTH with all signatories. It helps to prevent "scope creep" later on. Now, we have other issues with the two EAgle blue cards he turned in last week. Advancement chair does not want to submit to council because "current" SM did not sign the cards. Son started personal fitness 3 summers ago and I am not clear what the issue is with Personal Management because it was started in "current" troop house in March of last year. Therefore, it should have been sigend by "current" SM. Ahhhh Beuaracrcy, gotta love it................... Well, as long as "A Scoutmaster" signed the blue cards (twice, once to start and once to complete) AND the MB counselor signed them, they are considered valid cards and he HAS TO submit them. In fact, most summer camps don't require blue cards anymore. So you can have scouts signing up for MBs at summer camp and then getting partials or completed MBs back. MOST units simply sign the blue cards or create blue cards for their records. Sounds like you have a few control freaks that get off on making things difficult. The blue card issue takes two seconds to resolve...have the SM sign the darn thing. Read the Guide to Advancement. It is like your consumer rights handbook. If the unit is doing anything contrary to what is written there then they need to be taken to task. Your district advancement chairman can help you. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Hi again, son had SM, CC, and benficiary sign the proposal. I was just wondering if he had to write up the project in full before having Beneficiary and SM sign off on the project. After posting, realized it was a pretty not smart question. OF COURSE he has to fill the book out. I am just so anxious to have him finished with the project and his new troop. SM master is not really dedicated and is ............welll.........................sigh. SM feels slighted because he was not included in email for Project update 2 days before started. Son did not send any emails prior to that. Just talked to scouts at troop meetings WITH SM in room, but playing on his lap top. So, son still has some adjustments to do for project yet. Once they are done and beneficiary is pleased, he will have his booklet signed. He is working on the write-up this week. Now, we have other issues with the two EAgle blue cards he turned in last week. Advancement chair does not want to submit to council because "current" SM did not sign the cards. Son started personal fitness 3 summers ago and I am not clear what the issue is with Personal Management because it was started in "current" troop house in March of last year. Therefore, it should have been sigend by "current" SM. Ahhhh Beuaracrcy, gotta love it................... Sounds like some serious instruction is in order for the adults of this adult controlled unit. I'm not even going to give them the benefit of the doubt and call them adult-led. These people are running an adult-controlled egofest. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
dfolson 70 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I just looked at the current workbook. The final signatures required that project is complete: Scout Beneficiary Unit Leader Not sure where the second Unit signature is.... Link to post Share on other sites
zuzy 23 Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 Bwahahah to BSA Heretic's answer. I totally agree, this is a crying shame for BSA. Hubby is a Unit Commisioner and has been "assigned" to set this troop straight. Could be a tough assignment, but he is going to try. The adjustments for the project I speak of is the finished product, son rebuilt and rehung a barn door for one of the riding therapy's around the area and the door is scraping a piece of cement that needs to be cut out to make the door travel more smoothly. The rollers at the top needed to be cleared of debris from the arena flooring and sprayed with graphite. These things are just tweakings to make the door operate correctly, nothing that was not expected. Should be done tonight or tomorrow night. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The adjustments for the project I speak of is the finished product, son rebuilt and rehung a barn door for one of the riding therapy's around the area and the door is scraping a piece of cement that needs to be cut out to make the door travel more smoothly. The rollers at the top needed to be cleared of debris from the arena flooring and sprayed with graphite. These things are just tweakings to make the door operate correctly, nothing that was not expected. Should be done tonight or tomorrow night. I see. I would expect that to be part of the success criteria marking the project done to the beneficiary's satisfaction. We advise all of our scouts to include these things in their project plan; a check list if you will on what constitutes a successful completion of the project which both the beneficiary and the scout agree to as part of his plan. Again, not part of the workbook but something we heavily suggest be done. Clearly whoever created the BSA workbook has never proposed or responded to a proposal before. The plan should be agreed to by both parties so we know what and how things will be done and when it is considered complete. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4344 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 All of that back-and-forth are interesting steps in the project that a BoR might like to hear about. I would encourage the scout to give his full report to the SM when he asks for his signature. A lot of our boys do have their Eagle project workbook signed along with their application at the scoutmaster conference. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 All of that back-and-forth are interesting steps in the project that a BoR might like to hear about. I would encourage the scout to give his full report to the SM when he asks for his signature. A lot of our boys do have their Eagle project workbook signed along with their application at the scoutmaster conference. How do you schedule an SMC for Eagle unless you know requirement 5 is done? Shouldn't that be signed off BEFORE the SMC? We had an SM do as you suggest only to find out that the project was not yet quite finished. We went back to the by-the-book route where all signatures are done and all requirements signed off before an SMC is scheduled. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4344 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 How do you schedule an SMC for Eagle unless you know requirement 5 is done? Shouldn't that be signed off BEFORE the SMC? We had an SM do as you suggest only to find out that the project was not yet quite finished. We went back to the by-the-book route where all signatures are done and all requirements signed off before an SMC is scheduled. Well, in a small troop, we SM/ASMs don't get all bent out of shape if we have to meet the boy more than once for any rank. Link to post Share on other sites
Krampus 696 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Well, in a small troop, we SM/ASMs don't get all bent out of shape if we have to meet the boy more than once for any rank. Lol. We don't either. We've stuck to the process more to manage parents than kids. In fact I think most of what we do these days is more parent Mgmt than kid Mgmt. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
reeddma 24 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Not sure where others are seeing signatures required. The current workbook, and previous ones, show that signatures are required by the Scout, Unit Leader, Committee, Beneficiary, and Council/District for Proposal; and Scout, Unit Leader, and Beneficiary for the Final Report. DDR Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Interesting. Ever get any push back from the Scout or district about doing this? The scout is only required to have the proposal signed off before beginning work. They are not required to complete the workbook prior to beginning work. We are talking two different things. The SM has to sign at two different times--one for the proposal (the last page of the proposal), and the second time after project completion. I was talking about when the SM signs AFTER the project is actually completed (i.e. after everything but the paperwork is done). The beneficiary and the Scoutmaster (unit leader) sign after the proposal is done, and then again when the workbook is finished. The CC and district people only sign at the proposal phase. Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 It has always been my understanding as SM that I sign the project proposal that is to be sent to District/Council for consideration. Then when the project is done and the paperwork is completed, I sign the final document that gets turned in at the end. I NEVER read the project proposal. I only sign off on it. If District/Council thinks I have signed, meaning I am in compliance and agreement with the project, they have made a false assumption. My signature indicates that the boy has completed his project proposal and I am now in the loop of a project in process, nothing more, nothing less. It's always really fun to see what of the many suggestions one tosses out there for Eagle projects, which ones they pick. I usually find out when the project's first work day is announced. I did have one push-back from the Eagle committee wondering whether the project was significant enough to be an Eagle project. I asked if they had talked with the Scout. They said no and I suggested they start there. They never called back but finally approved the project and it went on the front page of the second section of the local paper.... and the front page of the second section of the state-wide paper. I guess it was significant enough to be an Eagle project after all. Well, if you haven't read the project proposal, you are being dishonest signing it. Here is the verbage from the actual proposal in the Unit Leader approval section. Unit Leader Approval* I have reviewed this proposal and discussed it with the candidate. I believe it provides impact worthy of an Eagle Scout service project, and will involve planning, development, and leadership. I am comfortable the Scout understands what to do, and how to lead the effort. I will see that the project is monitored, and that adults or others present will not overshadow him. Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) If I understand him correctly, he's talking about the final four signatures that certify the project is completed. His Troop requires the workbook to be done and ready to go before they sign the final signatures, not necessarily the beginning the project ones. What final four signatures? There are only two--the beneficiary and the unit leader. There are four signatures required on the proposal, but only two on the final project. Edited February 18, 2016 by perdidochas Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I just read "signatures" so maybe it would help to define the process. It was my understanding the process is: Scout develops proposal.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Scout develops plan.No signatures required (amazingly) Scout does project. Scout develops final report.Beneficiary, SM and TC Chair sign Well, one more sig on the proposal--in addition to unit leader, beneficiary, and committee chair, they also need Council or district approval. At the end, only the beneficiary and unit leader sign. I Link to post Share on other sites
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