Troop Elections

[Gone]

@, and the demand for POR rank advancement may increase the quality of leadership through competition for those positions.  After all, the really creative scout can learn to play the bugle and solve his problem for POR rank advancement.  

 

One also has to remember that there can be more than one ASPL, more than one Historian, and if one looks closely, POR's rank requirements can be filled in with special projects approved by the SM.  One has to be able to start looking outside the limits of election terms and go with the best regardless of time.

 

By the way, the scouts that do the special projects for POR's have a tendency to do some really great Eagle projects when the time comes along.  They have already done a couple pre-projects before the big show.

 

I don't disagree at all.

 

But someone needs to help the boys with the big picture view. Tommy may be SPL but he may not know that Tim is aging out in 13 months and need a POR right away. The PLs and SPL need help seeing the big picture. There are too many dates, requirements and demands in a large troop to keep all of that straight. I know adults who are challenged with such a task.

 

Our SM's job is to help the boys manage that and plan accordingly, all the while forcing them to be accountable.

[Stosh]

This of course applies to boys actually taking their responsibilities seriously.

 

SPL is there to make sure the PL's are supported.  He asks questions like, "Hey, PL #1, how many boys you have needing POR?"  PL #1 says, "I don't know."  SPL, "Find out, I will be needing to make some appointments and need to know."  Then he say, "Hey, PL #2..."  

 

The PL and SPL need to be taking care of their boys and their advancements.  It's part of why they are doing that job.  If they aren't doing that job, then the patrol members need to get someone in there that will.

 

So then PL #3 says, "Hey SPL, I have a boy that needs a POR right away."  SPL, "Everything's full, let me see what I can do."  SPL, "Hey, SM, I need a special project for a boy needing a POR, anything lined up, should be a starter project, the boy is working on Star. (or Should be a challenging project, the boy is working on Life)".  SM, "Yes, I have one, here."

 

This is how everyone stays in the game, is on top of their responsibilities, learns to communicate and associate effectively with adults on a peer level, and takes care of their boys all at the same time.

 

If one has an outstanding grouping of leaders doing a fantastic job, why would they want to have requisite elections to disrupt all that instead of developing good DC's, resurrecting the Chaplain Aide, Historian, Librarian, Bugler, positions?  I think a lot of units don't develop those positions very well because they spend their time sending the boys through an ineffective 6 month revolving door PL program instead.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Stosh

[Eagledad]

It doesn't really matter Bad Wolf what system a troop uses as long as the scouts manage it themselves and use it to provide leadership growth. I have seen dozens of different styles of election processes that work. I know of a troop with about 50 scouts that uses Stosh's style. It's harder for the adults in bigger troop to keep up with, but that is generally the case for troops with a lot of patrol independence. I find many election styles work fine so long as the scouts feel they aren't being held back by the process.

 

Barry

[Twocubdad]

We don't manage PORs to accommodate advancement.  My official position is you should elect or select the best person for the job.  But where the rubber meets the road I know the Scouts do a little horse trading to make sure they get a shot at the PORs they need.  And that's as it should be.  It's part of taking care of the Scouts below you so that everyone gets a shot -- even if you know a particular Scout is not the best qualified and may create more work for your.

 

Frankly, BW, if Tommy is almost 17, likely a rising senior, probably driving and still doesn't have the initiative, drive and plain ol' gumption to ask make his case for a POR, I'm not stepping in and solving his problem for him.

[Gone]

It doesn't really matter Bad Wolf what system a troop uses as long as the scouts manage it themselves and use it to provide leadership growth. I have seen dozens of different styles of election processes that work. I know of a troop with about 50 scouts that uses Stosh's style. It's harder for the adults in bigger troop to keep up with, but that is generally the case for troops with a lot of patrol independence. I find many election styles work fine so long as the scouts feel they aren't being held back by the process.

 

Barry

 

No one said otherwise. However, it is harder to manage larger troops without a more define election cycle. Boys will go without leadership positions. If the boys are not guided, PORs can become popularity contests. So, yes, while the boys must manage the process, it is not done so in a vacuum. Adult guidance by the SM is part of his job. 

 

We don't manage PORs to accommodate advancement.  My official position is you should elect or select the best person for the job.  But where the rubber meets the road I know the Scouts do a little horse trading to make sure they get a shot at the PORs they need.  And that's as it should be.  It's part of taking care of the Scouts below you so that everyone gets a shot -- even if you know a particular Scout is not the best qualified and may create more work for your.

 

Frankly, BW, if Tommy is almost 17, likely a rising senior, probably driving and still doesn't have the initiative, drive and plain ol' gumption to ask make his case for a POR, I'm not stepping in and solving his problem for him.

 

POR are not always about the best person for the job  though. Many times PORs should be about growth. My advocacy for adult guidance is to avoid the cloakroom politics that I've seen happen in units where there are power brokers controlling the PORs, be they adults or scouts.

 

Yes, the boys should manage the WHOLE process...but not without the check and balance of the SM. That is the job of the SM is to train and develop the boys in to leaders. This would include helping to guide the election process.

[Eagledad]

Bad Wolf, I can only say that your troop's goals are different than ours. Our scouts can manage the elections and leadership responsibilities without the adults. Like Twocub, we don't use leadership for advancement. If scouts need a POR to advance, they figure something out. But our PLC works very hard, so you don't see scouts looking for a POR there just to knock of a rank requirement. And SM special projects are rare and usually only for a handicap scout.

 

Barry

[Gone]

Bad Wolf, I can only say that your troop's goals are different than ours. Our scouts can manage the elections and leadership responsibilities without the adults. Like Twocub, we don't use leadership for advancement. If scouts need a POR to advance, they figure something out. But our PLC works very hard, so you don't see scouts looking for a POR there just to knock of a rank requirement. And SM special projects are rare and usually only for a handicap scout.

 

Barry

Again, who said guys are looking for PORs to knock off ranks. It's a requirement as well as a duty. The reason for the SM to get involved is because leadership development is part of his job. He coaches the PLC on how to manage that. In a large troop of 50+ kids that's a daunting task for most adults let alone a 15 year old SPL and his 13 year old colleagues.

 

Again, read what I wrote. THE BOYS MANAGE EVERYTHING! The SM is their advisory and counselor.

[Stosh]

@

 

It's quite true in a large organization either one has to retain a bit of adult "guidance" or take the risk of trusting 100% in he boys which even for me is a daunting challenge.

 

However if one were to define leadership more along the lines of servant leadership rather than management/organizational leadership, one would find that even the Historian, by doing a good job, is taking care of his boys.  Making sure the trips and activities are documented, making sure WebMaster has pictures for the troop's website, making sure the press releases are going out to the newspapers, etc.  But I'm sure that in most troops, that type of leadership is not developed except in the more obvious positions of SPL, ASPL, PL, and maybe QM.

 

I find that the challenge lies not in developing leadership, but in developing a functional POR for the boys.  Chaplain's Aide?  Does he have an invocation at every opening flag ceremony?  Closing benediction/blessing?  Devotionals at evening campfire?  How is he taking care of his boys?  Most troops I would venture to say, "Not much".  Yes, a CA needs lots of leadership and courage in this day and age to pull it off.  I have seen it done by one boy exceptionally well.

 

Instead of making election process the focus of POR rank advancement with just the elected positions, one must also develop the SPL appointed positions as well, something that is seldom discussed on the forum because everyone is worried about the few and far between POR's that are elected.  OMG, what if Johnny doesn't get elected, he won't get his Eagle!  But if the SPL appoints him ASPL and he functions as a "PL" to the troop officer corps, wouldn't that count?  Or he accumulates all the training literature, organizes the troop program materials, has resources lined up for on-line knot descriptions, lashing project plans, Compass and map resources to be used for training.  As the Librarian, has he shown the "take care of your boys" kind of leadership?    

 

As far as challenging boys in a POR, would it not be best to have the boys doing POR work within their patrols so that when they get tapped out for a rank advancing POR need, they are ready?  Nope, the process calls for someone needs a POR so he gets thrown under the bus, challenged to take it on with no experience and then we can yell at him when he doesn't do his job.

 

I have never had a QM that wasn't appointed from the QM's of the patrols.  Other than temporary SPL's (we're a small troop and don't need one, but at certain activities we need one), all my SPL's have been elected as former APL's.  None of my boys want to give up the PL positions so we have worked hard to develop the other PORs into POR's that actually function and serve a purpose.

 

I guess in the long run I have pretty much stayed out of the way of the POR/election process and let the boys handle it on their own.  I have offered "guidance" suggestions to the boys in getting the other POR's up and running when someone needs a POR for rank advancement.  I also have a reservoir of special projects for the boys as a last resort need for advancement.

 

In my first troop it was adult led, the PL's were elected figure heads and the SPL was appointed by the SM and the whole process was a total failure.  When I became SM of my own troop, I turned it all over to the boys and surprisingly through two troops, things seem to work very well especially in the area of functionality.

 

There is way too much myopic haggling around the elections that the appointed POR elephant in the room is totally missed.

 

There are very few elections going on in my troops.  Why?  Because PL's hang on to their position for as long as the boys want them to lead and the SPL tends to stay quite some time, too  But he becomes the #1 choice for PL of new patrols down the road.  My boys know that the highest ranking "officer" in the troop are the PL's and they will do all they can to get and retain that position.  SPL is the second highest office and that is a stepping stone to the PL positions when they open up.  Boys looking for advancement can either challenge in these elected positions or ask for an appointment from the SPL from a POR list of openings.

 

Any and all of these positions have been totally vetted by the boys prior to the elections because they have watched these boys coming up through the ranks proving themselves as they go.  Not every boy in the troop aspires to be out front leading, but they might have an interest and/or natural skill in the areas of CA, DC, Librarian, Historian, WebMaster, etc.  Those responsibilities must be met with a heart of a leader as well.

[Gone]

@@Stosh...good post. I don't disagree with any of that.

 

All I will say is that it *is* possible to have all of that, in a large troop, with the boys managing it, while the SM does his job of leadership development/growth/management.

[Stosh]

@@Stosh...good post. I don't disagree with any of that.

 

All I will say is that it *is* possible to have all of that, in a large troop, with the boys managing it, while the SM does his job of leadership development/growth/management.

 

And it's a whole lot less hassle for the SM, too!    Let the boys handle their own politics, the adults have enough of that dealing with each other without having to worry about that too.

 

I wish I had a nickel for every SMC I have had with a boy where I asked him, "How's it working out for you taking care of your boys?"  Yes, I might toss in a suggestion for him to consider, but I have never had a SMC where I needed to remind the boy he isn't coming up to par with his performance in a POR.  I have had to console a boy or two who was removed from a POR by the SPL or his patrol membership, but that turned into a teaching moment that always seem to turn it into a positive quite quickly.

[Eagledad]

@@Stosh..All I will say is that it *is* possible to have all of that, in a large troop, with the boys managing it, while the SM does his job of leadership development/growth/management.

Yes, I did it when I was SM of 90 scouts and the present SM is doing it now with about 60. It just has to be an expected part of the program so the process develops in that direction. 

 

Barry

[Gone]

Yes, I did it when I was SM of 90 scouts and the present SM is doing it now with about 60. It just has to be an expected part of the program so the process develops in that direction. 

 

Barry

 

Exactly. And keeping the adult leaders out of it is the other full time job of the SM.

[blw2]

good thread I think.... thanks guys

[qwazse]

Exactly. And keeping the adult leaders out of it is the other full time job of the SM.

That's where the CC and a really good cadre of ASM's come in!

 

Also, the emphasis should be on the learning experience. A troop's not gonna fall apart if a boy flounders in his position for a month. But we then need to nudge the kid ... "How do you think you can do this better? What are we going to see from you next month?"

 

I think that's where the idea of election cycles might help some boys. If they know they are "locked in" for a few months ... with the expectation they do better each month, they might respond to each other a little bit better.

 

Here's a tangent: what do you all do with the position patches? Do the boys return them/swap them around at the end of their term? Does the troop order them? Does the boy go to the scout-shop?

[Gone]

That's where the CC and a really good cadre of ASM's come in!

Amen

 

I think that's where the idea of election cycles might help some boys. If they know they are "locked in" for a few months ... with the expectation they do better each month, they might respond to each other a little bit better.

Again, Amen.

 

Here's a tangent: what do you all do with the position patches? Do the boys return them/swap them around at the end of their term? Does the troop order them? Does the boy go to the scout-shop?

Some keep them.

 

Some turn them in to the QM, where they may be used again after the next election.

 

Our SPL many, many years ago (15+ now) started a tradition. He'd sign the back of the patch and passed it along to the next SPL, who in turn would do the same. Many years on on we've gone through four patches...all of which are framed (back-side facing out to see the signature) along with a new SPL patch. It is a shadow box so there is room for growth. This way the boys can see who was SPL and when. A cool tradition started by a scout now a real rocket scientist who has come back a few times to show HIS kids his old patch.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Bad Wolf